On writing: point of view

[AG31]

'You' is a plural form, but today, used universally as singular without the connotation of politeness/deference anymore. It still carries a connotation of plurality when used in the sense of 'one' or 'we'. If you can substitute in either of those pronouns, it's not 2P. It's sometimes described as 4P, which is a crowd of 1Ps.

2P
'You are sitting in a chair. You get up. George sits in your chair. You pour two glasses of wine and give one to him. He sips the wine. He tells you to fetch more ice ... etc'

4P
'You are hanging wallpaper. Your assistant is helping you. You hand ... to them. They ascend the ladder.'

In the 2P example I am saying, 'You, dear reader, are sitting in a chair' There may be many readers, but you are addressing the only one who happens to be reading it in the moment.

In the 4P example I am saying, 'Listen up people. One is hanging wallpaper. An assistant is helping one. One hands ... to them. They ascend the ladder.' You address the world at large.

2P is intimate, you/(s)he. 4P is generic, one/we//they. Hope this helps.

Clarifying, but can you give me an example of some actually published writing where the "you" is the reader?

 

[Britva415]

Would someone give a couple of examples where the "you" in a second person story is the reader?

I’m not sure what you’re reacting to, but speaking for myself, when I say the narrator addressing “you” is speaking to the reader, you have to not take it so literally.

There is a character whose position the author is putting the reader in. The reader is not the character, but they’re both being addressed when the narrator says “you.” The character is being addressed on the fictional level, the reader is being addressed on a meta level.

 

[Britva415]

Iwe,you,they = 4P, 5P, 6P

Is there a citation for this? It sounds made-up. I mean, I’m jist saying, I’m not the only one who says we’ve never heard of it. The standard way to talk about those 1p plural, 2p plural, 3p plural.

 

[Britva415]

Wasn't familiar with 4P, but I would've assumed it was more a "we" construction (just going on pure conjugation logic):
"We asked you to take us to your leader. We found your leaders lacking, but they were tasty, so we decided to spare your planet."

Which I guess would might 5P:
"You all went for a walk, and you found yourselves wondering how something could possibly be worse than 2P."

And 6P (which already reads like 3P):
"They found themselves wondering how this was any different than 3P. But then they realized none of them were referred to individually, and they were almost all mad. They questioned themselves why not all of them were mad, but they couldn't fully make up their mind."

And 7P is the POV equivalent of a hypercube, and thus incomprehensible to writers on this plane of existence.

The only one of those I’m willing to entertain is 4p, and the only way I’d entertain it is if it meant the person on the other side of the 4th wall

Unless and until someone educates me to the effect that grammarians actually do use 4,5 and 6p.

Edit: I’m talking about grammarians and English grammar, not linguists and non-English linguistics.

 

[anthrodisiac]

Is there a citation for this? It sounds made-up. I mean, I’m jist saying, I’m not the only one who says we’ve never heard of it. The standard way to talk about those 1p plural, 2p plural, 3p plural.

The citation might have been me earlier doing silly extrapolation if we were to continue with the premise that 1 = I, 2 = you, 3 = he/she/they, therefore 4 = we, 5 = you all, 6 = they, 7 = hyperdimensional pronoun.

 

[BeechLeaf]

Italo Calvino's novel If on a Winter's Night a Traveller begins by narrating that you have just bought Italo Calvino's new novel If on a Winter's Night a Traveller and are keen to settle down and start reading it, which you do. It then gets weirder.

 

[anthrodisiac]

The only one of those I’m willing to entertain is 4p, and the only way I’d entertain it is if it keant the person on the other side of the 4th wall

Unless and until someone educates me to the effect that grammarians actually do use 4,5 and 6p.

Hell if I know, I was just screwing around I do know 4P is a thing, some authors have used it and some people have called it 4P. I've never seen any credible mentions of 5 or 6 P, they were silly theoreticals, but I suppose someone could label them that way if they wanted Probably better to say 1/2/3 plural for clarity though.

 

[TheLobster]

7 = hyperdimensional pronoun.

Hey, just as long as you don’t try to discuss time travel tense, we won’t have hadn’t had a bad time.

More seriously, though, this numbering is totally ungrammatical. Persons end at the third; the other pronouns are also 1/2/3 but in the plural number.

 

[Britva415]

I posited a few times that @StillStunned’s “Into the Night” is actually using ‘you’ precisely in this manner, even if he didn’t intend it himself

The “you” vs “one” thing is a matter of personal vs impersonal.

Which is a whole different matter than 2p vs 1p, or singular vs plural, or *shudder* 4p vs anything. (Saying for the board’s sake. Not assuming you aren’t aware of this. But it seems like there are some people who aren’t.)

Also with regard to Into the Night, I think the “you” in there wasn’t impersonal, like “one,” I think it was the narrator talking to himself. So a re-personing of what really could be regarded as a 1p story. I can’t read that story and replace the you’s with one’s, but I can replace them with I’s/me’s.

 

[Britva415]

I do know 4P is a thing, some authors have used it

I don’t know what you mean by that. Do you mean they called it that when describing their story?

 

[BeechLeaf]

A number of North American languages have distinct fourth person agreement or pronouns, for clauses like 'he saw him'. The first of the two referents is called proximate, and presumably is what's also used in clauses like 'he slept', while the other person is called obviative.

 

[anthrodisiac]

I don’t know what you mean by that. Do you mean they called it that when describing their story?

I've seen it described that using "we" is called fourth-person POV. Mostly because I googled it after XerXexXu mentioned 4P and was curious, and I got a fair amount of hits.

 

[anthrodisiac]

Hey, just as long as you don’t try to discuss time travel tense, we won’t have hadn’t had a bad time.

More seriously, though, this numbering is totally ungrammatical. Persons end at the third; the other pronouns are also 1/2/3 but in the plural number.

It may or may not have been the case that I saw someone describe "we" as 4P, then went facetiously into 5, 6, 7P. But only someone who's deeply unserious would do something like that. And that couldn't be me, right?



Oh...

 

[Britva415]

only someone who's deeply unserious would do something like that

Padme: You’re talking about calling “we” 4p, right?

Anakin: . . .

Padme: Right?

 

[StillStunned]

I posited a few times that @StillStunned’s “Into the Night” is actually using ‘you’ precisely in this manner, even if he didn’t intend it himself.

Also with regard to Into the Night, I think the “you” in there wasn’t impersonal, like “one,” I think it was the narrator talking to himself. So a re-personing of what really could be regarded as a 1p story. I can’t read that story and replace the you’s with one’s, but I can replace them with I’s/me’s.

I've given it some thought, and I think that the "you" in Into The Night isn't impersonal. They have a life and a history, they have issues that the reader doesn't have, they have skills and knowledge that the reader doesn't - can't! - possess. They even have a name, or at least a "Night" name: the Magic Rat. They're a person.

The closest you might come is if "The Night" was a computer game, and the Magic Rat was the character that the reader plays. But this is getting very meta.

 

[StillStunned]

I think 2P lends itself to < 2,000 words. Short and intense. A shot, not a glass of wine, let alone a beer.

"Into The Night" is 7.3k words, with a rating of 4.75/44.

But yes, generally I'd agree. If for no other reason than it's absolutely exhausting to write.

 

[TheLobster]

A number of North American languages have distinct fourth person agreement or pronouns, for clauses like 'he saw him'. The first of the two referents is called proximate, and presumably is what's also used in clauses like 'he slept', while the other person is called obviative.

I’ve never heard of this; very interesting! The relevant Wikipedia article makes me think it is a distinct grammatical category (“salience” appears to be a good name for it) rather than fourth person.

English seems to have this category, by the way, but in accordance with its long-standing tradition to only preserve useful grammatical devices in pronouns, it exhibits it solely in demonstratives: this vs. that and these vs. those.

 

[StillStunned]

Or the novel Lonesome Dove, which told multiple narratives that at times criss-crossed but often were separated by hundreds of miles. Both stories had many POV characters, and it worked.

I've started listening to the audiobook of Lonesome Dove. I saw the miniseries back in the 1980s and loved it.

But honestly I might have already given up if I didn't know the story itself was going to be epic. The constant shifts in POV are exhausting: always having to keep track of who's thoughts are being narrated, almost from one sentence to the next, and the incessant bombardment of information.

It's made more bearable by Will Patton's narration. He does an excellent job.

 

[TheLobster]

But yes, generally I'd agree. If for no other reason than it's absolutely exhausting to write.

Yet it all balances out, because I actually found it quite invigorating to read

 

[StillStunned]

Yet it all balances out, because I actually found it quite invigorating to read

Take that energy and write a 2P story!

But yes, the story's reception makes it worthwhile. I'm incredibly pleased with how it turned out, but I'd probably have been quite bitter if readers had disliked it.

 

[AStrangeDesire]

I've started listening to the audiobook of Lonesome Dove. I saw the miniseries back in the 1980s and loved it.

<snip>

I remember that series. Wasn't it the one that had a reviewer criticize it for the number of rapes, and someone from the show responded with "... yeah, but they're tasteful rapes."

Anyway, way off topic, just one of those things that randomly popped in my head.

 

[crookedletter]

I've started listening to the audiobook of Lonesome Dove. I saw the miniseries back in the 1980s and loved it.

But honestly I might have already given up if I didn't know the story itself was going to be epic. The constant shifts in POV are exhausting: always having to keep track of who's thoughts are being narrated, almost from one sentence to the next, and the incessant bombardment of information.

It's made more bearable by Will Patton's narration. He does an excellent job.

I have to wonder if that's partly an issue with the audiobook format. Even while understanding subjective taste is a thing -- maybe it's just not for you -- it's hard to imagine anyone not being all in on that book. It's one of the best I've ever read.

I struggle sometimes with fiction audiobooks, they rarely pull me in as thoroughly as the print versions.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've started listening to the audiobook of Lonesome Dove. I saw the miniseries back in the 1980s and loved it.

But honestly I might have already given up if I didn't know the story itself was going to be epic. The constant shifts in POV are exhausting: always having to keep track of who's thoughts are being narrated, almost from one sentence to the next, and the incessant bombardment of information.

It's made more bearable by Will Patton's narration. He does an excellent job.

I can imagine that. It's not so much a problem with the printed word; it's very clear whose thoughts are being tracked.

 

[XerXesXu]

Clarifying, but can you give me an example of some actually published writing where the "you" is the reader?

I 'googled' your question in Bing:

'Bright Lights, Big City' is probably the most famous example.

• Here are some novels written in second person point of view:
  • "Fight Club" by Chuck Palahniuk: This novel uses frequent second-person narration to explore themes of consumerism and identity.
    
    1
  • "The Waste Land" by T.S. Eliot: A modernist poem that employs second-person narration to reflect on themes of disillusionment and the human condition.
    
    1
  • "The Diver's Clothes Lie Empty" by Vendela Vida: This novel features a protagonist addressed as "you" by the narrator, addressing themes of identity and self.
    
    1
  • "Bright Lights, Big City" by Jay McInerney: A novel written entirely in second person, providing a unique narrative experience.
    
    1
  • "Choose Your Own Adventure" series: Popular for its interactive storytelling, these books often feature second-person narration.
    
    1
    These examples illustrate the creative use of second person point of view in literature, creating a unique and immersive reading experience.
• [URL='https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=0ca31352f5392935cc00a0ff9be2acb0b6ac9dc3ed784a0493c6500e97a6e351JmltdHM9MTc3Mzk2NDgwMA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=4&fclid=02a77ba2-063b-6b1d-3844-6edb07a66ac4&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9iaWd0aGluay5jb20vaGlnaC1jdWx0dXJlL2Jvb2tzLWluLXNlY29uZC1wZXJzb24v&ntb=1'][/URL]
  https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=ab6d...yc29uLXBvaW50LW9mLXZpZXctaW4tZmljdGlvbg&ntb=1
  https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=ab6d...yc29uLXBvaW50LW9mLXZpZXctaW4tZmljdGlvbg&ntb=1

 

[XerXesXu]

Is there a citation for this? It sounds made-up. I mean, I’m jist saying, I’m not the only one who says we’ve never heard of it. The standard way to talk about those 1p plural, 2p plural, 3p plural.

No. No-one has ever elaborated a full taxonomy of POVs, as far as I know, so I've elaborated (made up) a full taxonomy in the manner of the first 3 POVs to illustrate the problem some people have raised with ambiguity/confusion between 'you' singular and 'you' plural, as in One (EveryONE/people generally, not a person specifically)

I've never seen anyone refer to 1, 2, and 3P plural.

I've seen 4P POV used to describe both 2P plural as you describe it, and 3P Limited (Cinematic).