Your take on "wimpy" characters

[M_K_Babalon]

I don't write bitch made characters.

 

[Eosphorus]

If I had to think very hard about this, I'd probably have to say that it's because the women are more interesting to write, and for me a confident and sex-positive woman who takes control is very sexy.

Same here. 100%. My female characters are the exact same way and they are the driving force behind all my stories.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Same here. 100%. My female characters are the exact same way and they are the driving force behind all my stories.

Well, d'uh! The site is full of (and driven by) horny men, both writers and readers, and the large majority of them are straight, so straight men (in general) aren't the least bit interested in sexy men, only hot women. It's why the most common (non-)plot on lit is 'aggressive unicorn jumps passive boring guy'. It's why female characters are usually described in detail and male characters are almost always at best glossed over.

Lit is essentially a porn site, and 95% of porn is slutty women doing kinky things to invisible men.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Well, d'uh! The site is full of (and driven by) horny men, both writers and readers, and the large majority of them are straight, so straight men (in general) aren't the least bit interested in sexy men, only hot women. It's why the most common (non-)plot on lit is 'aggressive unicorn jumps passive boring guy'. It's why female characters are usually described in detail and male characters are almost always at best glossed over.

Lit is essentially a porn site, and 95% of porn is slutty women doing kinky things to invisible men.

Invisible men with 18-inch boners.

Assuming your observation is correct, I wonder why we don't imagine ourselves as badasses more often.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Assuming your observation is correct, I wonder why we don't imagine ourselves as badasses more often.

I wondered that too when I first got here. When I was young all the boys wanted to be either Michael Jordan, Han Solo, Indiana Jones or James Bond. Now they just want a slutty girl to do everything for them. The difference is, in the last 20 years we have free porn at the click of a mouse. Why go to all the work of dreaming up Indiana Jones or all the sweat to be Michael Jordan when there is a straight line right to skanky kinky naughty ho who will do everything for you for free?

Who's kidding who? It's not the chase. It's the catch. Fuck the chase. But ... if you fuck the chase, there goes your plot. You have a hot fantasy, but you have a shitty story.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Your take on wimpy characters?

There is an audience for everything.

 

[ADirtyPerv]

I wondered that too when I first got here. When I was young all the boys wanted to be either Michael Jordan, Han Solo, Indiana Jones or James Bond. Now they just want a slutty girl to do everything for them. The difference is, in the last 20 years we have free porn at the click of a mouse. Why go to all the work of dreaming up Indiana Jones or all the sweat to be Michael Jordan when there is a straight line right to skanky kinky naughty ho who will do everything for you for free?

Who's kidding who? It's not the chase. It's the catch. Fuck the chase. But ... if you fuck the chase, there goes your plot. You have a hot fantasy, but you have a shitty story.

This, specifically, is why I write T/I. Because men aren't all Michael Jordan or Indiana Jones, and women aren't all Bond girls. In the world of T/I, you can portray that taboo barrier as thick or thin as you want it to be. IMO, it should be thick but permeable. A thrill punches through, and lets that rush in, and suddenly even a solid workhorse of a guy (he has a job and a small paunch, but he cares) can make a woman happy, as long as you're willing to entertain a mindset shift. He's NOT a hero, but he's there for his sister every time she needs it, and she just wants to acknowledge that.

He gets down on himself over his relationship dissolving, his sister tells him that his ex just doesn't have the eyes to see. He asks..."What the fuck do you mean? I'm just me."

And she kisses him.

It's an intense story, playing with tropes that carry a lot of power on their own. In some ways, it cuts corners via the use of the incest plotline (assumed closeness is the easiest one), but it also allows for fascinating blindsides. You don't often get kissed by the least expected person.

But those incest tropes allow for a "wimpy", passive guy who just wants to make ends meet and make people happy...to have happiness of his own. Because sometimes an unexpected person recognizes that your "passiveness" is really just solid, consistent behavior that is important to them.

They're not always without character, sometimes they're just doing their best, and that just happens to look mild.

 

[Ianus4]

Everybody knows you never go full wimpy.
Went full wimpy, went home empty-handed.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

It's an intense story, playing with tropes that carry a lot of power on their own. In some ways, it cuts corners via the use of the incest plotline (assumed closeness is the easiest one), but it also allows for fascinating blindsides. You don't often get kissed by the least expected person.

But in an incest story, the sis/mom whoever is the most expected person. In fact, the only expected person.

Because sometimes an unexpected person recognizes that your "passiveness" is really just solid, consistent behavior that is important to them.

Certainly the passive character has the 'everyman' quality but that's not the whole point. It's not that character has to be superman, but he has to have some proactiveness in driving the plot. In an erotic story the plot usually revolves around getting laid or whatever, which is absolutely totally fine, but the character should do something to make himself layable rather than just have someone say, "oh, you deserve to get laid, let me help you with that." The plot here is basically the protag winning first prize in the raffle. That's not really a plot.

It also leans heavily on self-insertion, both as a writer and to let the reader self-insert. If the reader can insert himself and have a good time, you are getting a 5, regardless of how well or how poorly you wrote it. It's much easier to self-insert into a blank page of a protag. Especially for men and male characters. Women, for whatever reason, seem to have an easier time putting themselves into female shoes that are not their own. I'm not sure why. That's just an observation from the experience of feedback on my stories, not a judgment against men.

Most people here only write their fantasies, and that's cool. Lit is absolutely the place for that. But these really aren't great stories. For instance, guy wants to get pegged, so the fantasy is that he accidentally leaves pegging porn open on his work computer. His hot female boss sees the porn, calls him into her office, and says, "I saw that pegging porn on your computer." He thinks he's getting fired. But then she says, "I'm into that too, now bend over and let me strap on, bitch!" He literally just won the fucking lottery! The plot is over right there and we just engage in a bunch of pegging. Isn't this amazing?? As a fantasy, sure, but as a plot it's nothing but a massive eyeroll. Come on. This guy does nothing proactive to obtain his kink. No, accidentally leaving porn on your computer is not proactive. And no, purposely leaving it on for the one in a billion chance that your boss will see it and somehow be into pegging is not proactive. This plot is an ACT OF GOD, okay? It is LITERALLY deus ex machina. And the reader is expected to buy this?? If you're into pegging I suppose that you don't have to buy in, but for the rest of us, this sucks. And swap pegging for whatever kink you like and it is by far the most common plot on lit.

And I'm not judging the kink. I'm judging it because the plot sucks. I'm bored. On occasion I've enjoyed stories that I wasn't really into (lesbian, cuckold, horror, etc) because the plot was good, the characters were engaging, the prose was immersive. This example above doesn't have any of that.

So people ask, how do I improve my writing? Probably have to stop writing your fantasies and start writing stories, or at least build on your fantasies to create something more, and have an actual plot, with characters that have more motive than just being horny, and actually do something to change their predicament instead of sitting around minding their own business until the unicorn pounces.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

But in an incest story, the sis/mom whoever is the most expected person. In fact, the only expected person.



Certainly the passive character has the 'everyman' quality but that's not the whole point. It's not that character has to be superman, but he has to have some proactiveness in driving the plot. In an erotic story the plot usually revolves around getting laid or whatever, which is absolutely totally fine, but the character should do something to make himself layable rather than just have someone say, "oh, you deserve to get laid, let me help you with that." The plot here is basically the protag winning first prize in the raffle. That's not really a plot.

It also leans heavily on self-insertion, both as a writer and to let the reader self-insert. If the reader can insert himself and have a good time, you are getting a 5, regardless of how well or how poorly you wrote it. It's much easier to self-insert into a blank page of a protag. Especially for men and male characters. Women, for whatever reason, seem to have an easier time putting themselves into female shoes that are not their own. I'm not sure why. That's just an observation from the experience of feedback on my stories, not a judgment against men.

Most people here only write their fantasies, and that's cool. Lit is absolutely the place for that. But these really aren't great stories. For instance, guy wants to get pegged, so the fantasy is that he accidentally leaves pegging porn open on his work computer. His hot female boss sees the porn, calls him into her office, and says, "I saw that pegging porn on your computer." He thinks he's getting fired. But then she says, "I'm into that too, now bend over and let me strap on, bitch!" He literally just won the fucking lottery! The plot is over right there and we just engage in a bunch of pegging. Isn't this amazing?? As a fantasy, sure, but as a plot it's nothing but a massive eyeroll. Come on. This guy does nothing proactive to obtain his kink. No, accidentally leaving porn on your computer is not proactive. And no, purposely leaving it on for the one in a billion chance that your boss will see it and somehow be into pegging is not proactive. This plot is an ACT OF GOD, okay? It is LITERALLY deus ex machina. And the reader is expected to buy this?? If you're into pegging I suppose that you don't have to buy in, but for the rest of us, this sucks. And swap pegging for whatever kink you like and it is by far the most common plot on lit.

And I'm not judging the kink. I'm judging it because the plot sucks. I'm bored. On occasion I've enjoyed stories that I wasn't really into (lesbian, cuckold, horror, etc) because the plot was good, the characters were engaging, the prose was immersive. This example above doesn't have any of that.

So people ask, how do I improve my writing? Probably have to stop writing your fantasies and start writing stories, or at least build on your fantasies to create something more, and have an actual plot, with characters that have more motive than just being horny, and actually do something to change their predicament instead of sitting around minding their own business until the unicorn pounces.

To be fair, if the guy's sufficiently attractive, the plot is not unrealistic. It just omits her threatening to fire him and ends before she tries to break up his marriage.

It kind of gets to the another core fantasy of a lot of stories here (and most porn) - sex without consequences. A world without STIs or real jealousy or accidental pregnancies.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

sex without consequences

Yes, another boring fantasy element. Plotwise, exactly no one will be on the edge of their seat eager to turn the page if there is no chance of consequences. And what are we trying to do as good writers? Make people eager to turn the page.

So the only audience for a story with sex without consequences, are people into that specific kink.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Yes, another boring fantasy element. Plotwise, exactly no one will be on the edge of their seat eager to turn the page if there is no chance of consequences. And what are we trying to do as good writers? Make people eager to turn the page.

So the only audience for a story with sex without consequences, are people into that specific kink.

I'm sympathetic. I like to repeat the old saying (at least someone said something like this to me once) that the only crime a story can commit is making the reader want to stop reading.

I guess it'd be interesting to see a story here where a woman accidentally gets pregnant and decides to keep it but her husband finds out she's given him HIV so he shoots her and her lover... probably wouldn't be the worst story on LW actually....

 

[Ianus4]

I guess it'd be interesting to see a story here where a woman accidentally gets pregnant and decides to keep it but her husband finds out she's given him HIV so he shoots her and her lover... probably wouldn't be the worst story on LW actually....

Maybe someone has already written this. It would be funny if matches came up in LFS.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm sympathetic. I like to repeat the old saying (at least someone said something like this to me once) that the only crime a story can commit is making the reader want to stop reading.

I guess it'd be interesting to see a story here where a woman accidentally gets pregnant and decides to keep it but her husband finds out she's given him HIV so he shoots her and her lover... probably wouldn't be the worst story on LW actually....

There doesn't have to be a pregnancy or an infection. There just has to be some sort of tension.

Guy, convinces girl to give up her virginity to him on the pretext that there will be a continuing relationship. Then in the morning, he dumps her.

And it doesn't even have to turn out bad. How about this?

All of her friends warn her not to get involved with this guy since he uses women like tissues, but he swoons her and beds her. All the time, the reader is (hopefully) thinking, "should she do this or shouldn't she? How is this going to turn out?" That keeps the reader turning the page. Then in the morning, he could genuinely like her and they continue with a happy for now ending. It all works out. Or he could dump her like she was warned. Either way, the tension built at the beginning of the plot kept the reader in.

I know that it's a really simple example, but it shows that it's not really the consequences themselves, but the threat of consequences that keeps the tension up. The characters are making choices that drive the plot, instead of kinks just happening without a care.

Here is a very simple example from Hollywood. The Matrix. The plot is driven by the actions of the characters. Neo is doing things that flags the interest of the resistance. They realize that they really want him on their side, to join their cause. So they make a play for him. Morpheus offers him the red pill or the blue pill. Neo makes a choice and takes the red pill. This drives the plot and keeps us interested. The red pill didn't just happen to him. He chose it. Furthermore, we're watching thinking, "Wow he took the red pill. What kind of mess is he getting himself into? I gotta find out! (turn the page)"

Now, I've simplified this but that is the psychology of motive driven plot.

 

[ADirtyPerv]

But in an incest story, the sis/mom whoever is the most expected person. In fact, the only expected person.

Unexpected to the character, not to the audience. Barring twists (ahh, an eldritch god!) and just boiling the story down to relationships, there's very little you can do to surprise the reader in a T/I story. But how you go about it can be very unexpected, or just very human.

but the character should do something to make himself layable rather than just have someone say, "oh, you deserve to get laid, let me help you with that."

Totally agreed. I like to approach this with demonstrable instances of the guy being on his sister's side through hardship of some kind, and then having a few cases of building sexual tension between them, but without him thinking it can possibly go further - at least when I'm writing a more passive or stoic character. He would write those scenes off as if he was misremembering, or maybe it happened but it doesn't mean anything. Maybe she's just teasing because it's fun and she doesn't get a lot of that in her life. Because the defining character trait for this kind of guy is that he would never push, though he would take what he can get. The relationship is more important than a lay, so he takes what's on offer and goes no further.

And to be clear, this isn't a blank page of a person, he has unique faults and fears when I write him. There's even a physical description, though all of my physical descriptions are fairly short when I'm not describing a specific outfit. Or a butt. But there's more to being passive than simply waiting for a raffle ticket to drop down on your head, carried by a lightning bolt. He's NOT winning the lottery by doing nothing - he cares about the women in his life while those women go through shit. And to those specific women (who are also characters), it's important to have that pillar in their lives, the support that they know is going to be there through everything.

So no, he's not gonna give them a pickup line, but maybe he'll banter. He'll make her laugh. He'll pick up the pieces after yet another relationship dissolves, and he'll complain about his own shitty luck. She'll make a comment about how stupid his ex is, and the tension cranks up a notch. But he remains himself, consistent and solid and not reaching, through all of it. Because that's who he is and that's what she expects of him, and maintaining that even through the sex scene is important.

 

[ADirtyPerv]

Certainly the passive character has the 'everyman' quality but that's not the whole point. It's not that character has to be superman, but he has to have some proactiveness in driving the plot.

Sorry to come back to this, but you just ruined a movie for me (genuinely, thank you). I just watched Solo Mio, and Kevin James plays such an Everyman, whiny sad sack. I only spotted it because of your posts on this thread. Spoilers ahead, hopefully I formatted it right. (Edit: I don't get how to use the spoiler function.)

They don't do any work to explain why the beautiful Italian love interest is interested in this shlubby American. She's literally prodding at him the whole movie to do something, and when he finally does a thing, it's only with the help of Andrea friggin Bocelli that he's able to sing for her. And it's played for laughs. He doesn't do a single thing well or correctly in the whole movie. And then they don't kiss, even during the wedding scene. They skipped the kiss! (it's worth noting that there's a faith-based production company behind it, even though it's not an explicitly Christian movie - no idea if that played a role in the kiss-skipping)

But yeah. Wimpy characters suck!

 

[anthrodisiac]

There is an audience for everything.

Can confirm.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Super heroes like James Bond bore me. My characters are vulnerable and fallible, but when they need to face the danger of pain, defeat, and even death they do.