On writing: point of view

[SkyBubble]

My first ever erotic story was in second person, and I would recommend trying it, if only to see why you shouldn't try to do anything other than choose your own adventures with it.

In college, one of my Creative Writing teachers assigned us to "write a place sketch." I wrote it in the second person. It worked really well. She marked me down for it, saying one should "NEVER" use 2P. I wouldn't make a habit of doing it, but it can work sometimes.

 

[TheLobster]

Past tense narratives that try to build the suspense by obscuring details and motives seem a little fake (I've been guilty of this). The narrator is telling the story from some future point - they now know what happen and why people did things. So why not say so? Why hide that information? Present tense allows the writer to honestly hide details and motives a 1st person narrator couldn't possible know at that point.

Present tense is still obscuring those same details, it’s just doing it one meta level higher. The narrative might be “in the present”, but the story is ipso facto still in the past, for the simple reason that it has already been written. There was already a choice made what to put into and what to omit from the narrative, and the mere grammatical choice of tense isn’t changing this essential nature of fiction.

Sure, you might say that such meta-fictional considerations won’t occur to most readers, and I agree. But by the same notion, do readers actually consider stories written in the so-called narrative past to actually be in the past, more so than stories told in the narrative present tense? I find it unlikely, if only because the same tense is routinely used for works of sci-fi set in the speculative future, or of fantasy set in imaginary lands and timelines.

 

[SkyBubble]

1st person is the most limiting, and is generally only effective if you are writing memoir type stories. Memoirs of a Geisha, Huck Finn, or the Great Gatsby for example.

Good examples. First person can work for shorter erotica. I met her, we did a few things, we ended up in bed. 750-800 or so range. Straightforward. Sometimes expanding the perspective gets in the way of "this is my story." You choose waht works best for the particular story you want to tell and how you want to tell it.

 

[SkyBubble]

"I pulled out of the parking lot onto third street, and there was an elephant blocking traffic!"

There's a good Groucho line there somewhere.

 

[SkyBubble]

<Din Djarin> You can write a mirror scene well - or you can write a mirror scene badly </Din Djarin>

Or you can write it comedically, with no actual mirror at all. See Duck Soup.

 

[SkyBubble]

Anyone looking to write a story about learning self-love? Because I just spotted this plot bunny right here if anyone wants to take a shot.

That's pretty much what my MC in my most current story needs to learn -- how to feel deserving, worth loving.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Good examples. First person can work for shorter erotica. I met her, we did a few things, we ended up in bed. 750-800 or so range. Straightforward. Sometimes expanding the perspective gets in the way of "this is my story." You choose waht works best for the particular story you want to tell and how you want to tell it.

I agree, it works best for shorter works, or where there is a narrow focus.
To return to LOTR, you could have written much of the story 1P from Frodo's point of view. And, as Simon pointed out, much of the story is told from his perspective. But think of everything you'd lose if you did.
Of course part of the reason much of the early story is tight on Frodo is because he's an audience surrogate. He doesn't know much about the goings on in the world at large, so other characters have to explain things to him, which fills us in as well. Once we know everything we need to know, Tolkien could pull back more and more.

 

[Bramblethorn]

edit: started writing this last night then had to go to bed, and I see some of my points have already been made by others before I got back to it. Oh well.

How about we pool our thoughts on POV? I suppose tense tied up in this as well, so feel free to talk about present v past, simple v continuous etc.

Quick description of the types of POV used in fiction writing:
1P: I/me/mine
3P: he, she, broken down roughly into:
close (or limited) 3P: the reader only gets one narrator's thoughts, experiences and knowledge at a time, unless there's a clear break in the narrative
omniscient 3P: the reader gets the thoughts, experiences and knowledge of multiple characters without a clear break in the narrative
2P: don't worry, I won't go here for now

coward.

The major POV that I haven't used is omniscient 3P. You don't see it often nowadays, but if you read older books - even from the 1980s and 1990s, I think - you'll come across it quite often. Maybe because writers didn't have such easy access to fiction-writing guides, or maybe because there wasn't such an emphasis on the characters' internal lives. I think it can be used quite effectively for large scenes, where the events are more important than the characters themselves. Joe Abercrombie uses it to great effect in "The Heroes" to describe a battle, generally flitting from character to character as they die. (Although I still might describe this as close 3P, because each moment is described from inside the character's head.)

IMHO, it's more useful to understand the distinction between 3P close and 3P omniscient as a spectrum than as a binary, with many books not being entirely one or the other. Even 1P vs. 3P is sometimes murky.

Take LotR as an example, since we've been discussing it elsewhere. I would describe the narrative style as mostly third person close; much of the story is told in terms of what the Fellowship experience first-hand, with occasional forays into perspectives like Gollum's and I think Eowyn/Faramir's?

But there is a narrator, an unnamed historian who identifies himself in the Prologue as being human:

[Hobbits] seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller. ... It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. ... But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten.

After the Prologue this narrator mostly disappears, but occasionally re-emerges to drop some info that none of the protagonists would've known:

And taking Frodo's hand in his, [Aragorn] left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.

The second half of this sentence is looking more than a hundred years into the future, probably because Tolkien wants to foreshadow Arwen and Aragorn's end.

From things like this, one can argue that there are bits of first person and of omniscience in the narration, but I think it would be misleading to classify the book as a whole as either a first person narrative or as omniscient narration style.

Compare to something like Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which frequently dives into random asides about random events which none of the protagonists are ever aware of (Prosser's descent from Genghis Khan, the battle fleet that gets eaten by a small dog). I would consider HHGTTG as being much closer to "omniscient", but still not entirely so, as it still tends to concentrate on the experiences of Arthur Dent.

Concepts like first vs. third, close vs. distant etc. are important in understanding questions of PoV, but it's also important to understand that the reality is more complex and nuanced than a simple categorisation can represent.

There are also what I'd consider hybrid modes of narration. For instance, I've seen stories presented as a first-person narrative that's been edited by another person, who will occasionally drop in footnotes or entire chapters to clarify things outside the protagonist's knowledge or interest.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Third-person objective POV reveals the actions of characters from a third person narrator's perspective, but the narrator does not reveal what the characters are thinking. The narrator is like a reporter on the scene. It's uncommon. Hemingway's Hills Like White Elephants is a rare example.

IME more common in whodunnit-style stories, where revealing character thoughts would give the game away.

This also occasionally leads to...first person semi-objective? style narration, where we might be given some of the protagonist's thoughts, but with others omitted in order to set up a twist. Agatha Christie has a couple of these, and Len Deighton does it in The Ipcress File.

 

[Actingup]

For erotic stories, full of desire, thoughts and feelings, I tend to go 1st person, but I'm happy with 1st or 3rd in their various incarnations. And I really appreciate this kind of discussion in Author's Hangout - I'd never really thought about these things before.

Incidentally, when I was looking up Jack Vance quotes for another thread a couple of days ago, I came across this beautiful description of something to aspire to:

“The mark of good writing, in my opinion, is that the reader is not aware that the story has been written; as he reads, the ideas and images flow into his mind as if he were living them.”
― Jack Vance, This Is Me, Jack Vance! … Or More Properly This is "I"

So perhaps something to consider in the POV choices is how the chosen POV supports that idea.

 

[BeechLeaf]

One of the great modern classics of erotica does a very good job of first person narration sneaking in a bit of description. I refer to the incomparable My Immortal by Tara Gilesbie, whose opening paragraph is this:

Hi my name is Ebony Dark’ness Dementia Raven Way and I have long ebony black hair (that’s how I got my name) with purple streaks and red tips that reaches my mid-back and icy blue eyes like limpid tears and a lot of people tell me I look like Amy Lee (AN: if u don’t know who she is get da hell out of here!). I’m not related to Gerard Way but I wish I was because he’s a major fucking hottie. I’m a vampire but my teeth are straight and white. I have pale white skin. I’m also a witch, and I go to a magic school called Hogwarts in England where I’m in the seventh year (I’m seventeen). I’m a goth (in case you couldn’t tell) and I wear mostly black. I love Hot Topic and I buy all my clothes from there. For example today I was wearing a black corset with matching lace around it and a black leather miniskirt, pink fishnets and black combat boots. I was wearing black lipstick, white foundation, black eyeliner and red eye shadow. I was walking outside Hogwarts. It was snowing and raining so there was no sun, which I was very happy about. A lot of preps stared at me. I put up my middle finger at them.

 

[Britva415]

after a section break - remember when those worked?

This makes it sound like "if it's not centered, it's not a section break."

I'm not saying "centered section breaks aren't broken." They are, I concede. But that doesn't mean section breaks are broken.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

One of the great modern classics of erotica does a very good job of first person narration sneaking in a bit of description. I refer to the incomparable My Immortal by Tara Gilesbie, whose opening paragraph is this:

Hi my name is Ebony Dark’ness Dementia Raven Way and I have long ebony black hair (that’s how I got my name) with purple streaks and red tips that reaches my mid-back and icy blue eyes like limpid tears and a lot of people tell me I look like Amy Lee (AN: if u don’t know who she is get da hell out of here!). I’m not related to Gerard Way but I wish I was because he’s a major fucking hottie. I’m a vampire but my teeth are straight and white. I have pale white skin. I’m also a witch, and I go to a magic school called Hogwarts in England where I’m in the seventh year (I’m seventeen). I’m a goth (in case you couldn’t tell) and I wear mostly black. I love Hot Topic and I buy all my clothes from there. For example today I was wearing a black corset with matching lace around it and a black leather miniskirt, pink fishnets and black combat boots. I was wearing black lipstick, white foundation, black eyeliner and red eye shadow. I was walking outside Hogwarts. It was snowing and raining so there was no sun, which I was very happy about. A lot of preps stared at me. I put up my middle finger at them.

Average first character on Vampire: The Masquerade.

 

[EmilyMiller]

This makes it sound like "if it's not centered, it's not a section break."

I'm not saying "centered section breaks aren't broken." They are, I concede. But that doesn't mean section breaks are broken.

I’m trying to think when I ever saw a section break in a printed book that was not centered. Hmm…

 

[ElectricBlue]

I’m trying to think when I ever saw a section break in a printed book that was not centered. Hmm…

But Literotica isn't a printed book...

* * * *

Anyway, don't you read on a phone? Tiny screen like that. I guess you do get printed books that size, but not often.

I'm not sure that formatting matters as much as people think it does, just sayin'.

 

[Britva415]

I shift 1P narrators for a number of reasons:

1. The initial narrator is not present in the given scene

But it's the initial narrator's story. From an in-universe perspective, How does another person's POV get their scene into the first person's story?

2. It’s a story that has two people at its heart and I want to show each of their perspectives viscerally (else I’d move to 3P)

You want to show it. You're the author, not an in-universe character. See above - from an in-universe perspective, what motive (and means and opportunity) do two or more people have, to get together and tell their different parts of a story and put them all into one act of storytelling?

3. It’s important to have the events seen from a different POV

Again: To you, the author? Or to the in-universe storyteller(s)? When one person is telling their part of a story, are they to be aware that another character is also filling in some blanks by somehow interjecting their side into the act of storytelling?

4. I want to conceal something about the initial narrator from the reader (e.g. not to reveal some plan she has until it comes to fruition)

Same question. How do you align your OOC wishes with the IC experience of the (ostensible) storyteller?

Just in case it needs spelling out: OOC = "out of character," IC = "in character"

"Act of storytelling" = what? An oral tale? A manuscript? What is the in-universe circumstance under which this in-universe character is telling or recording the story? What about the other character with the second POV? The third?

I'm not picking on you, here, @EmilyMiller , I hope you don't mind me using your post to ask AH to think about these questions. Some authors clearly do think about them before writing the story.

You can tell, even if there aren't explicit answers to these questions in the story. A first-person story with any number of different POVs, including just the one, just hangs together better when these things have been at least superficially considered by the writer.

You can tell when they weren't considered at all, too. And stories like that are just not as good as the ones where an internal, in-universe logic to the in-universe act of storytelling exists, even if you aren't told it.

 

[Britva415]

I’m trying to think when I ever saw a section break in a printed book that was not centered. Hmm…

Yep. How about on Lit? I see way more left-aligned ones than centered ones. The web is not paper. We don't indent paragraphs or eliminate the linespace between them, either, at least not without coloring outside the lines.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

There's a particular style of third person limited that some people refer to as "close" and which I refer to as the "free indirect style." This is a style where the POV is not just limited to one person but where the style of writing is to narrate events as though from the perspective of that person.

Jane Austen did this very well.

 

[Britva415]

I'll add a minor thing that only really matters for erotica. With 3rd-person, it's easier to slip in descriptors of the MC without it feeling forced. "He ran a hand through his curly hair" feels different than "I ran my hand through my curly hair." The second feels clunky. I try to remind readers of what a character looks like so they can continue to be horny for that character.

1P narrators can be anything, so you either end up with a mirror scene or you have to get really clever, if you want a solid feel for their appearance.

I don't think it only matters to erotica. I remember reading some spy thriller and the 1p MC commenting on his own muscular physical features for no good reason too, before executing an act of agility befitting a superhero spy. And his own studly, brooding facial features after a foxy bystander was impressed with what she had seen him do, and fell into his arms.

 

[Britva415]

I think sometimes these discussions get too hung up on the labels we put on things rather than concentrate on what the author is doing. Many stories blend different types of perspective.

For better or for worse.

Labels are a vocabulary we use to discuss that. Because, sometimes it comes off better, sometimes worse, specifically based on the POV/grammatical voice chosen. Sometimes that choice works against the story being told.

 

[EmilyMiller]

But it's the initial narrator's story. From an in-universe perspective, How does another person's POV get their scene into the first person's story?


You want to show it. You're the author, not an in-universe character. See above - from an in-universe perspective, what motive (and means and opportunity) do two or more people have, to get together and tell their different parts of a story and put them all into one act of storytelling?


Again: To you, the author? Or to the in-universe storyteller(s)? When one person is telling their part of a story, are they to be aware that another character is also filling in some blanks by somehow interjecting their side into the act of storytelling?


Same question. How do you align your OOC wishes with the IC experience of the (ostensible) storyteller?

Just in case it needs spelling out: OOC = "out of character," IC = "in character"

"Act of storytelling" = what? An oral tale? A manuscript? What is the in-universe circumstance under which this in-universe character is telling or recording the story? What about the other character with the second POV? The third?

I'm not picking on you, here, @EmilyMiller , I hope you don't mind me using your post to ask AH to think about these questions. Some authors clearly do think about them before writing the story.

You can tell, even if there aren't explicit answers to these questions in the story. A first-person story with any number of different POVs, including just the one, just hangs together better when these things have been at least superficially considered by the writer.

You can tell when they weren't considered at all, too. And stories like that are just not as good as the ones where an internal, in-universe logic to the in-universe act of storytelling exists, even if you aren't told it.

I don’t think your picking on me, but I think you are being a bit Humpty Dumpty about definitions here. These distinctions are clearly something you have thought about and care about. I’ll stick with my simpler views and leave the intellectual stuff to others .

I think we have very different ideas about what leads to a good story. And that’s fine .

 

[EmilyMiller]

Yep. How about on Lit? I see way more left-aligned ones than centered ones. The web is not paper. We don't indent paragraphs or eliminate the linespace between them, either, at least not without coloring outside the lines.

And people say I’m emotional and overreactive

 

[Britva415]

<Din Djarin> You can write a mirror scene well - or you can write a mirror scene badly </Din Djarin>

To me, a huge part of writing it well is there being a really good reason for doing it. I mean an in-universe reason. A Chekhov's Gun reason. Not an authorial reason like "how else will my narrator MC convey her attributes and assets?"

The only time I wrote a mirror scene was when there was a reason: An in-universe motivation for the person to go take a look, and narrate at least part of what they took note of seeing there. The act of looking in the mirror moved the plot along.

And, yes, I did use the opportunity to additionally spell out a detail of their physical appearance, but that wasn't the out-of-character motivation for including the mirror in the first place.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Anyway, don't you read on a phone? Tiny screen like that. I guess you do get printed books that size, but not often.

It’s not the size…

The Kindke app on my phone is a good substitute if I don’t have my Kindle with me. Lots of books with centered dividers on that .

 

[Britva415]

I was about to write a long post about handling character descriptions, but that might be better suited for a separate thread.

Or additions onto the one(s) which already exist