On writing: point of view

[SimonDoom]

Free indirect is different.

1. Close: He walked into the cold-store and felt the chill.

2. Free Indirect: He walked into the cold-store. Christ, it's cold.

If you call 2. Free indirect, what do you call 1.

One nit: I think for free indirect you would write: He walked into the cold-store. Christ it was cold.

Because the narrative is in past tense, and interior thoughts like this should be consistent with narrative rather than read like an interior quotation.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The cult of King is strong in this forum…

 

[StillStunned]

Perhaps we could spin a discussion of darlings and whether or not they merit death to a different thread? (Edit: and Checkov's Guns.)

That way this one will hopefully stay focused and have value in the long term as well.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Perhaps we could spin a discussion of darlings and whether or not they merit death to a different thread? (Edit: and Checkov's Guns.)

That way this one will hopefully stay focused and have value in the long term as well.

Worth a try…

 

[sijopunk]

The cult of King is strong in this forum…

I'm a priestess of that cult

I killed enough "darlings" in my search for the right Jasmine Tea story that I could get my own true crime Netflix special.

Perhaps we could spin a discussion of darlings and whether or not they merit death to a different thread?

I have a perspective, I think it's different from Emily's, so you're guaranteed two different points of view from two writers who really respect each other (ie, it won't be a knife fight to the death on a pirate ship because I'm pretty sure neither of us thinks the other is wrong, just has a different philosophy).

 

[StillStunned]

Worth a try…

I was just about to add an edit that I didn't mean to come across as all precious about my thread. It's just that I think these kinds of craft-specific discussions are more useful if they stick to a single topic and don't do the usual AH thing of wandering off in multiple directions.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I'm a priestess of that cult

I killed enough "darlings" in my search for the right Jasmine Tea story that I could get my own true crime Netflix special.

Sounds like a plot bunny…

I have a perspective, I think it's different from Emily's, so you're guaranteed two different points of view from two writers who really respect each other (ie, it won't be a knife fight to the death on a pirate ship because I'm pretty sure neither of us thinks the other is wrong, just has a different philosophy).

Of course not, I know you know I’m right deep down .

What I abhor is slavishly doing anything - anything at all - except in direct and targeted service of the particular story you are telling. Your story, your rules. Otherwise it’s paint-by-numbers.

 

[SkyBubble]

Yes, the gift to enable your reader to 'suspend disbelief' is important. I frequently find myself unable to suspend disbelief when I read the news, or many of those pre-peer-review publications passing as science.

"that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith" -- Samuel Taylor Coleridge

 

[SkyBubble]

You can very well write a 1P story that spends little time in MC’s head

The Sherlock Holmes stories are narrated by Dr. Watson.

 

[SkyBubble]

This thread cemented on me the fact that there's no right or wrong POV.

Your analogy to tools is appropriate. There may be a right or wrong POV for that story. Just as we don't try to use a screwdriver to do a hammer's job and vice versa, we try to apply the right tool (POV) to the story we're telling.

 

[crookedletter]

The Sherlock Holmes stories are narrated by Dr. Watson.

Dostoevsky did it a fair amount -- in fact it was probably just a generally common approach back then -- where it will seem a third person narrative for hundreds of pages, then all the sudden there's an "I" talking about their impressions. Not necessarily even a character per se, but a narrator with some point of view, who seems to just be present for but not affecting the events they describe.

I'm thinking of Demons in particular, where I think there's even a section of the story where the narrator admits they were absent, so missed a particular meeting of characters or something. Sort of an awkward device, but it's not the worst thing I've forgiven Dostoevsky for in favor of all the things he did well.

Apart from those brief deviations, though, the narratives are for all practical purposes third person.

 

[SkyBubble]

A lot of the modern writers I enjoy take their own path. I do myself, with eyes wide open.

My writing teachers always said to learn the rules and learn to follow them so you know how and when to break them.

 

[SkyBubble]

Some of the best humor and wisdom I've enjoyed in my reading career was right at the beginning, with books like Roald Dahl's James and the Giant Peach. Morbid, but funny and compassionate.

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and the movie musical Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

I love kids' stuff. So many layers to them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

My writing teachers always said to learn the rules and learn to follow them so you know how and when to break them.

Yes. Not sure what you mean? There are basic rules if grammar etc. A lot of what is being posted here is not like grammar rules.

 

[FrancesScott]

The Sherlock Holmes stories are narrated by Dr. Watson.

The Lion’s Mane is narrated by by Holmes.

 

[StillStunned]

So, shall we take a deep breath, promise to be nice to each other, and discuss... 2P?

 

[EmilyMiller]

So, shall we take a deep breath, promise to be nice to each other, and discuss... 2P?

You want to discuss it don’t you?

You’re such a bad boy.

What’s that? You want to be punished?

 

[TheLobster]

So, shall we take a deep breath, promise to be nice to each other, and discuss... 2P?

Alright, I can bring feathers, but someone needs to supply the tar. Oh, and tomatoes might be useful as well.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The Lion’s Mane is narrated by by Holmes.

And it’s super weird / jarring IIRR

 

[SimonDoom]

So, shall we take a deep breath, promise to be nice to each other, and discuss... 2P?

You creep up behind the bear. It seems to be sleeping. For now. Quietly, nervously, you draw closer.

"Don't poke the bear," they told you. And you tried, you really tried to be disciplined.

But curiosity has got the better of you. The slumbering bear lies just a foot away. You stick a finger out and. . .

 

[crookedletter]

So, shall we take a deep breath, promise to be nice to each other, and discuss... 2P?

I'll bite.

I've seen it done well. More than the others, though, it's likely to start you off wrong-footed with some readers. Some will immediately start asking "why," looking for some clear justification, some reason any of the more "standard" POVs wouldn't do. And some will just drop their one bomb and be on their way.

That's not to say it shouldn't be tried. I think there are uses.

One of the effects is it can take some agency away from the perspective character. As @anthrodisiac so eloquently put it, they become your meat puppet. If the effect you're looking for is that the character, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to have any choice in what they're doing, 2P can help bring that home.

Another interesting way I've seen it used was in a story exploring gender identity and nonconformity. A topic that, shall we say, some folks struggle to wrap their heads around. In this case it felt a little bit like enforced empathy: this isn't some anonymous other struggling to come to terms with this thing, it's you.

 

[StillStunned]

You stick a finger out and. . .

 

[SimonDoom]

. King’s ’kill your darlings’ is case in point. Shit advice, unless further qualified.

Plus, King himself is a poor practitioner of this advice. His novels tend to be overstuffed and overlong.

 

[SimonDoom]

View attachment 2604443

"Better than Twilight."

This is not a bar to which any decent writer should aspire to overleap.

 

[crookedletter]

Plus, King himself is a poor practitioner of this advice. His novels tend to be overstuffed and overlong.

Seems like in his I'm a Big Deal Now and Don't Need Editors Anymore edition of The Stand he just shoved all his zombie darlings right back in there.