Point of View, and Tense

[herecomestherain]

Boxlicker101,

Since you are okay with nit-picking, here is another one. When oral sex is being performed on a man, he does not usually "thrust" but sits or stands or lies passively while the fellatist strokes him with his or her mouth. In fact, if the man receiving the oral sex is too active, some people will refuse to continue.

This may well be true sometimes and it is a gentlemanly thing to say, however in the context of this story, a draft of which I have been very happy to read, the "thrusting" is perfect. Trust me.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

PorscheLynn:

Playing my own Devil's Advocate, however... I do appreciate the advice, since erotica is best when it appeals on a somewhat more universal level. It simply never occured to me that this is uncomfortable, even completely impractical for many folks. I'll take that into account, and tone it down slightly and or work in some of those nitpicky reasons that I just explained above. Thanks for the insight!

uncomfortable? impractical? tone it down?

No. No. No.

Everyone has their own way and I've seen/heard of things that I can't imagine ever being comfortable, let alone feel good. But they work for some people. I'd say go with what you know. I personally enjoy writing about things that are a little out of the norm. Appealing to the masses with your writing is a bit of a lost cause, imo. Write what you know and like and it will receive a much better reception that if it's generalized. Again, imo.

~lucky

 

[Guest]

What she said!

Most people would cringe at a lot of my stuff.

Lou

 

[lucky-E-leven]

What she said!

Most people would cringe at a lot of my stuff.

Lou

Cringe? I shudder, shake, tremble, wiggle, squirm, drip....)

~lucky

 

[Guest]

Cringe? I shudder, shake, tremble, wiggle, squirm, drip....)

~lucky

Blimey! Thanks, Lucky! That makes me wish I could be there in person.

Lou

 

[herecomestherain]

We like it raw, we like it hot...writing sex is no place for the coy. I know BL's comment was made in kindness, but we need to encourage authentic voices, the kind that get you in the groin literally, self censoring as a writer is paralysing in the extreme. Write it as you experience it, give us the detail so we can enjoy the experience with you.

 

[Guest]

We like it raw, we like it hot...writing sex is no place for the coy. I know BL's comment was made in kindness, but we need to encourage authentic voices, the kind that get you in the groin literally, self censoring as a writer is paralysing in the extreme. Write it as you experience it, give us the detail so we can enjoy the experience with you.

Very well said! I agree whole-heartedly.

Lou

 

[herecomestherain]

Thanks Lou, I feel really strongly about this, I don't want to participate in toned down sex, I don't want to write about it and I don't want to read it. Give me the me the full on version.

Without wanting to put undue pressure on the lovely Ms P-Lynn, look out when her story is up... candid, vivid, hot and fresh, that's the first draft!

 

[Guest]

Thanks Lou, I feel really strongly about this, I don't want to participate in toned down sex, I don't want to write about it and I don't want to read it. Give me the me the full on version.

Without wanting to put undue pressure on the lovely Ms P-Lynn, look out when her story is up... candid, vivid, hot and fresh, that's the first draft!

Cool, that's exactly the kind of thing I love to read. I hope she remembers to post a link when it's up, if not I hope you keep an eye on it.

Lou

 

[PorscheLynn]

Awwww, 'rain... yer making me blush.

Seriously, I'm glad it sounds that good at the point I showed it to you. I've expanded from there, giving it more context.

As for the "NONONO" reaction y'all have to toning down - thank you for the flip side of that. I'm still thinking of working in a little more in the way of reason to it, since I want to expand what I already have anyhow. For example, I'd like to add a bit more detail to how she is positioned on the bed; it's established she's tied up, and on her back, that he's on his knees... but the pillow is not there, and there could generally be more detail.

Then again, maybe I'm just a description junkie. That's the main reason I read Anne Rice.. she can't write dialogue or action for beans, in my opinion.. but her descriptions, while over-the-top, are damn engaging.

 

[Guest]

Awwww, 'rain... yer making me blush.

Seriously, I'm glad it sounds that good at the point I showed it to you. I've expanded from there, giving it more context.

As for the "NONONO" reaction y'all have to toning down - thank you for the flip side of that. I'm still thinking of working in a little more in the way of reason to it, since I want to expand what I already have anyhow. For example, I'd like to add a bit more detail to how she is positioned on the bed; it's established she's tied up, and on her back, that he's on his knees... but the pillow is not there, and there could generally be more detail.

Then again, maybe I'm just a description junkie. That's the main reason I read Anne Rice.. she can't write dialogue or action for beans, in my opinion.. but her descriptions, while over-the-top, are damn engaging.

Eek! I hate to say this, but Anne Rice is a no, no, NO for me! I like raw, in your face, gripping, thrilling, horror and erotic horror. Give me Ed Lee and Wrath James White anyday.

Seriously, please hold back on going over-board on the descriptives. For me, personally, who likes it raw, hot and fresh, over-description can be a killer. Leave a lot of largely irrelevant details to the imagination of the reader.

Sorry if I sounded harsh there, as I am only giving you my own, personal opinion.

Lou

 

[Boxlicker101]

Hi, PL

By no means should anybody writing on Lit tone anything down. I just said that usually, when a man is getting head, he doesn't thrust because the person giving head controls the action. Under some circumstances, though, that would not be the case. Sometimes the person giving head wants to be passive, depending on the nature of the relationship and other things.

As far as toning things down, read some of my stories and see how much I like to tone things down.

 

[PorscheLynn]

Lou, please don't worry that I'm the scary kind of Anne Rice wannabe fanatic. I cited her as a prime example of how badly obsessed with description I am; just poking fun at myself, is all.

I didn't mean to sound like I was taking the nitpicking as any kind of repromand, Boxlicker.. sorry if it came off that way. I just was fascinated by this perspective, and a little surprised. By mentioning the possibility of toning that aspect down, I was mostly just thinking "aloud," as it were.. acknowledging that you brought up a good point.


(Sorry if I sound melodramatic.. just tired, don't mind me. )

 

[Dirt Man]

Okay, you've gotten a great deal of great advice in this thread thus far concerning POV, and tense. And they are all right as far as they go, and in that was all that you asked for here. (See If you can find the mistakes I left in this posting.)

But as Billy Crystal says in the movie; "Throw Mamma From the Train:" "A writer writes!"

Write the whole story out, and try not to stop writing until it is finished. Now put the story aside for a couple of days. If you get antsy make up a list of what you want this story to do, and say, and how you want it said catagories. After the couple of day is up take the list, and read through it making certain that this is what you want out of what you remember writing. Now open the file, and do a spell check first thing. You are now in editing mode. Simply put editing mode is no more than actively critiquing your own work with a fine tooth comb of English Grammar. You are now reading the story from a readers perspective, and will catch every mistake you find along the way. Correct them as you go. Also take note where the story conflicts with anything on your list, or where you find yourself repeating things for no apparent reason. Put red astericks before, and after anything that you can't outright delete. When you have completed this much you have finished your first editing task, but not your 2nd draft. Go get something to drink, coffee, tea, a soda, whatever, but NO BOOZE!

When you come back to the story with your drink do a quick spell, and grammar check with your word processor. When that is complete you are ready for the second phase of editing for this story. I call it the common sense editing. Through this process you are once again in the reader's perspective, and you correct anything having to do with POV, or tense that just doesn't ring true in your heart, and the voice telling the tale as well as those asterik things. Now if the voice is doing a lot of telling, and not showing you have a real problem. Why? Because as a reader you can easily see that it is harder to get into the story than you thought when you first wrote it, POV's, and tense aside of course. So, wherever you find too much telling you put blue asteriks in front, and behind it. When You finish this part of editing you have completed your 2nd draft.

Now you have two choices of what to do. You can wait a couple of days, and fix the parts with blue asteriks, or you can find a good editor to give it a once over for you before working on those blue asterik sections in the story. In either case you take a breather from this story so that when you come back to it you are ready for the next editing process. If after you get the 2nd draft back from the editor, and all he could find wrong with it was a few wrong words spelled right, then fix that first. If he points out that you are telling more than showing, and nothing more; then you are on spot to continue editing. However in any event you are the writer, not them, so while the outside editor can be helpful to new writers, it is still your voice writing the story. Fix what you agree with them on, then do another spell check. Once all of that is complete go and fix the blue asteriks areas. Now read the whole story over once again, correcting anything that looks or feels, or sounds wrong to you at this point. You'll notice by the time you finish the third draft, which this is, that you are damn near sick and tired of the whole damn story and wonder whatever possessed you to make you write this in the first place.

At this juncture you can do one of two things. Submit the story to literotica as it is, or set it aside for a couple of weeks, and re-read it all over one last time before submiting it. To be honest I'm probably one of the few here at lit who would go this far before submiting let alone wait another two weeks while writing something else before coming back to it one last time. For a real writer writing is the fun part, editing is nothing but hard, and quite often monotonous work. Every writer writes for themselves, but if they are going to submit their work they need to edit it for the readers. Which reminds me, know your target audience. In any event, good luck in your writing, and welcome aboard.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

(Did you find the mistakes? Good, that's what it feels like to be in editor mode.)

 

[herecomestherain]

Great post Dirt Man and good advice. I love the time when nearing the end of the process, that you put the story aside for a week or so and then come back for the final tweaking. It's particularly pleasurable if it's something you are happy with, possibly agonising if it is not....It's also a great pleasure to work with a good editor along the way, one who helps bring out the best in you and in your story,one who asks the right questions.
I'm going to fess up now and say I think I've become obsessed with fiction writing. Is there an obsessives thread somewhere?

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Is there an obsessives thread somewhere?

Are there any other kind?

~lucky

 

[herecomestherain]

lucky my sweet, of course! you're right. Some mornings I can't stay in bed a minute longer, even if I only got to bed at 2.30 am...I'm carrying a notebook into the bathroom...I can't bear for my characters to be without me...I get cranky when real life interferes...I'm getting all pasty faced and red eyed...aaaghhh! Oh and have I mentioned that it makes me horny?

an aside...lucky I'm still laughing about the siwwence and the dweam.

Back to the scheduled program folks...

 

[lucky-E-leven]

lucky my sweet, of course! you're right. Some mornings I can't stay in bed a minute longer, even if I only got to bed at 2.30 am...I'm carrying a notebook into the bathroom...I can't bear for my characters to be without me...I get cranky when real life interferes...I'm getting all pasty faced and red eyed...aaaghhh! Oh and have I mentioned that it makes me horny?

an aside...lucky I'm still laughing about the siwwence and the dweam.

Back to the scheduled program folks...

real life interfering is a total BITCH! let's start a cult...the DON'T BOTHER ME, I'M WRITING cult. No one bothers anyone else, notebooks are allowed in bathrooms, characters go everywhere with authors, sleep is optional, real life does not exist to interfere, and no one is ever all pasty faced and red eyed.

The normal state of arousal in the DON'T BOTHER ME I'M WRITING CULT will be extremely horny.

Our motto/war cry will be: Siwwence Wapscawwions! And though she doesn't write, Shereads will be our leader. Only woman smart and decent and funny enough to get the lot of us through each day.

~lucky (I have a dweam...)

 

[herecomestherain]

What? What? Yes, yes,excellent...excellent...very good...yes...yep...can't talk now got two characters just about to engage in some very hot sex...my notebook and I are off...remind me to tell you about the joys of simultaneous plotline conclusion...(this is also sometimes known as simultaneous plotline culmination, an action and phrase worthy of copyright by my Muse who first coined it)

Then I'm off to sleep...to dweam...to dwell on the cult.

Catch you on the morrow with more cult followings.


PS I beg a thousand pardons...my f---ing computer has been playing up most dreadfully, I have been advised that the link to my story was incorrect, not working, shite of the worst kind, only it worked from my machine! I have rectified the problem, said machine hurled into the driveway. Seriously sorry, I hate that sort of crap.

 

[Weird Harold]

or set it aside for a couple of weeks, and re-read it all over one last time before submiting it.

Very good advice on how to edit a story into submission.

I can only add one additional tip:

Each time you have set a story aside for a while, and/or when you're ready to re-read it again to look for errors, change the font and or font size.

Changing the appearance of your work by changing the font and/or font size minimzes the tendency of your eyes to "see what they know is there" and errors will be much more noticeable.

 

[PorscheLynn]

Dirt Man, Weird Harold; such excellent advice! Obsessed as I am, it helps to have some one remind me to let the story "simmer" at least once, to be sure it's ready. Also, I've known myself to fall into the trap of glossing over the words I've read more, the words I'm happiest with. The font trick is really clever!

You wacky cultists, rain and lucky... where do I sign?

The first rule of the DON'T BOTHER ME I'M WRITING CULT is you don't talk about the DON'T BOTHER ME I'M WRITING CULT (you're too busy writing).
The second rule of the DON'T BOTHER ME I'M WRITING CULT is you don't tal-- aww, I don't have time for this! I gotta go write, don't bother me.

 

[PorscheLynn]

Cool, that's exactly the kind of thing I love to read. I hope she remembers to post a link when it's up, if not I hope you keep an eye on it.

Lou

She remembers...

Passion's New Home

 

[oggbashan]

Copy and change

My recent stories have swung towards 1st person with a lot of conversation. In between the talking the POV is still 1st but past tense.

In the series I'm now writing I have switched tenses a couple of times using past for the plot development and present for the exciting bits. I'm not sure that it works so I've copied all the episodes so far into one file. I will make two versions from that file.

One version will all be in past tense (except the conversation), the other will all be present tense. I will print all three versions and read through to see which works best. I have done this with episode 5 and the mixed tenses version seems better but I'm not convinced that the switch occurs when it should.

Present tense can become obtrusive because past tense seems more natural.

Almost all the conversation is verbatim e.g.

"Kiss me there, now!"

instead of reported speech -

I ordered him to kiss me, there, now.

because the actual words are better for that sort of action.

But that can become obtrusive when just introducing characters and when there are several characters in a scene keeping track of them can be difficult for the author and the reader -

"Why don't you make us some coffee, Alan?" Asked Sheila.

"OK."

"While he's gone, Sheila, why don't you tell us what Fred did?" Asked June.

"I would, June, but would you object Mary? He is your brother."

"No worries, Sheila, he is my brother but I no he's a shit."

"June!"

Who said 'June!' - could be anyone.

Trial and error, and practice, work with writing tenses and POVs. You could copy an old story - even someone else's and change POV - to see what a difference it makes.

Good luck.

Og