Political Poetry

[bogusagain]

On the free market question under discussion I definitely agree with Bogus, also on whether poetry is/should be political and address itself to real life and real people again, in any way a poet can manage to do it.
Since this started as a political poetry thread, here is a little contribution which I published last week in the main page, relevant, I think, to the discussion, and whoever objects to it, tough shit.



ON FREE MARKET VALUES

Arguing with free market sharks,
my brain is flushing, throwing sparks,
when they are trying to justify
their deals that make people die.

So, you are right to boost your price
and have your merchandise bought,
but be prepared for a surprise:
Some are prepared to cut your throat.

Arguing with people of your kind,
social progress gets behind,
as you are trying to explain,
free market values, all in vane.

I've heard it all before, wild shark,
I know only the result,
I dare you, go out when it's dark,
to preach about "free market cult".

To see how every down and out
who wants some food, but goes without,
taking your sermon in slow pace,
will turn to spit at your fat face.

But there'll be others, fast and rough,
who never had and shall have not,
telling your "values" where to stuff,
and maybe those will slush your throat.

Ooh, it's so cool for them to kill,
that's how free market meets free will!
So, I'd be careful in your shoes,
cause after all, what's there to loose?

Rather appropriate at at time when it has been predicted by more than a few people in the financial world that the stock market will crash by 50% or more. We are in the middle of an asset bubble that is going to go pop in the near future. An awful lot of innocent people are going to feel an awful lot of economic pain, while the smartest financiers will make a killing. So much for liberal capitalism. So much for libertarians who believe in liberal capitalism, the big libertarians never get hurt, it is the rest of us.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Pelegrino could artistically transform his own personal experiences, etc. Instead, here comes his so-called political so-called poem by pelegrino himself, one stanza at the time:

ON FREE MARKET VALUES

Arguing with free market sharks,
my brain is flushing, throwing sparks,
when they are trying to justify
their deals that make people die.

​

The very first word "Arguing" (which describes the author) assumes that here we have the GREAT PELEGRINO, who will tell us all--such a confident demagog. Oh, pelegrino even impresses us with his "brain flushing, throwing sparks", and he is not deeply embarrassed. Wow!

Thus we have the GREAT PELEGRINO and the so-called ordinary folks on one hand, and "they" on the other--how simplifying (trivial!), and how hate inciting (as we will see). He doesn't know what things are about, how to improve anything, he doesn't know what the real issues are, but he has gall to play the BIG PELEGRINO.

The GREAT PELEGRINO already talks hate like this: their deals that make people die.--pure demagogy, zero thinking.

So, you are right to boost your price
and have your merchandise bought,
but be prepared for a surprise:
Some are prepared to cut your throat.

​

Pelegrino makes an equality them=you=sharks, and he is ready to cut their throat. And who is to boost the price and why? All kind of companies? At least, as a bare minimum, you could address the oil price, and how it affects other prices. One could try to understand the basic features of stock market, and how to change it to better, etc. But GREAT PELEGRINO wants to cut their throats, how nice, and how simple.

I've spent years with beggars, bums, and criminals on one hand, and all the way to milllioneers, great artists, and great scientists. I don't see any line which divides people into good folks and "them", to set the good folks to cut their throats.

According to the GREAT PELEGRINO, the poor folks "have to" buy merchandise. Actually, some of poor folks produce and sell merchandise, and others often WANT to buy it, they want it bad. Now PELEGRINO wants the good folks to cut the throats of their own brothers as things may be, and as things used to be here and there and then. This garbage is just intellectually offensive, and it is simply horrible.

Arguing with people of your kind,
social progress gets behind,
as you are trying to explain,
free market values, all in vane.
​

Now GREAT PELEGRINO talks about explaning things. He knows nothing, embarrassingly nothing, but he explains things to the folks. Thus he is talking in loaded terms about "social progress"--in this text pelegrino is infinitely far from any poetry or from making any sense.

I've heard it all before, wild shark,
I know only the result,
I dare you, go out when it's dark,
to preach about "free market cult".
​

Oh mu gosh, the GREAT PEPEGRINO heard it all, oh big deal, huge monstrous deal, PELEGRINO heard it all. And see this demagogy about preaching free market cult. Poor folks will cut the throat of those who preach free market cult. Every time pelegrino is reaching the bottom, there is still a level below that he must stoop down to it further. There is no end to demagogy, it's so easier than thinking.

In real poetry, a real author would have a character talking all this nonsense, the author would make sure to create distance, to make fun all the way of the GREAT PELEGRINO who--wow!--heard it all. But here it's our friend pelegrino making a stupid, thoughtless dumb pseudo-prophet of himself--which is quite a misunderstanfing of what poetry should be .

So there is more talking about "sharks", and GREAT PELEGRINO is scaring the "sharks". Oh, soooo profound (soooo stupid!).

Talking about violence, rapes and social progress and poetry, read the genius Isaac Babel (there are translations), "The Red Cavalry Stories". This may open your mind onto life and art, on both. Nobody was more "political" then the superb artist Babel. He and poet Mandelstam and others, they payed with their life for their artistic convictions, not like cowards around these days.

To see how every down and out
who wants some food, but goes without,
taking your sermon in slow pace,
will turn to spit at your fat face.

More of the thoughtless demagogy. Aren't you getting tired with these cliches??!! And those endearing phrase "to spit at your face". Nothing sells as well as hate. Zero thinking but it is oh-so provocative, so righteus, so... wow-wow-wow.

But there'll be others, fast and rough,
who never had and shall have not,
telling your "values" where to stuff,
and maybe those will slush your throat.

And more slushing (actually: slashing) their throats. You don't get tired of this stuff, pelegrino, do you? And it's soooo poetically inventive, oh, what an eye opener .

Ooh, it's so cool for them to kill,
that's how free market meets free will!
So, I'd be careful in your shoes,
cause after all, what's there to loose?

And more of this stuff. Mercifully, this is the last stanza.

 

[Magnetron]

If only Senna was this critical of his own poems, especially the ones that for some reason require starting new threads.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

If only Senna was this critical of his own poems, especially the ones that for some reason require starting new threads.

May I humbly point you to the "ignore" option.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Rather appropriate at at time when it has been predicted by more than a few people in the financial world that the stock market will crash by 50% or more. We are in the middle of an asset bubble that is going to go pop in the near future. An awful lot of innocent people are going to feel an awful lot of economic pain, while the smartest financiers will make a killing. So much for liberal capitalism. So much for libertarians who believe in liberal capitalism, the big libertarians never get hurt, it is the rest of us.

The financial world is a huge problem. It ties with other problems. And you don't show any understanding of the connections between them. Actually, you and others like you have sentiments which are contradictory. In effect, you are actually supporting the existing financial system, despite of what you say. And when it comes to slashing throats, it will be some naive folks slashing throats of other folks. It's never along the pelegrino's line "we" versus "them".

Read Isaac Babel, and see how complex and cruel life can be.

I'll start to present my views The Art of Agreement in the Poets' Hangout, let's see how it goes.

 

[butters]

Pelegrino could artistically transform his own personal experiences, etc. Instead, here comes his so-called political so-called poem by pelegrino himself, one stanza at the time:


The very first word "Arguing" (which describes the author) assumes that here we have the GREAT PELEGRINO, who will tell us all--such a confident demagog. Oh, pelegrino even impresses us with his "brain flushing, throwing sparks", and he is not deeply embarrassed. Wow!

Thus we have the GREAT PELEGRINO and the so-called ordinary folks on one hand, and "they" on the other--how simplifying (trivial!), and how hate inciting (as we will see). He doesn't know what things are about, how to improve anything, he doesn't know what the real issues are, but he has gall to play the BIG PELEGRINO.

The GREAT PELEGRINO already talks hate like this: their deals that make people die.--pure demagogy, zero thinking.


Pelegrino makes an equality them=you=sharks, and he is ready to cut their throat. And who is to boost the price and why? All kind of companies? At least, as a bare minimum, you could address the oil price, and how it affects other prices. One could try to understand the basic features of stock market, and how to change it to better, etc. But GREAT PELEGRINO wants to cut their throats, how nice, and how simple.

I've spent years with beggars, bums, and criminals on one hand, and all the way to milllioneers, great artists, and great scientists. I don't see any line which divides people into good folks and "them", to set the good folks to cut their throats.

According to the GREAT PELEGRINO, the poor folks "have to" buy merchandise. Actually, some of poor folks produce and sell merchandise, and others often WANT to buy it, they want it bad. Now PELEGRINO wants the good folks to cut the throats of their own brothers as things may be, and as things used to be here and there and then. This garbage is just intellectually offensive, and it is simply horrible.

Now GREAT PELEGRINO talks about explaning things. He knows nothing, embarrassingly nothing, but he explains things to the folks. Thus he is talking in loaded terms about "social progress"--in this text pelegrino is infinitely far from any poetry or from making any sense.


Oh mu gosh, the GREAT PEPEGRINO heard it all, oh big deal, huge monstrous deal, PELEGRINO heard it all. And see this demagogy about preaching free market cult. Poor folks will cut the throat of those who preach free market cult. Every time pelegrino is reaching the bottom, there is still a level below that he must stoop down to it further. There is no end to demagogy, it's so easier than thinking.

In real poetry, a real author would have a character talking all this nonsense, the author would make sure to create distance, to make fun all the way of the GREAT PELEGRINO who--wow!--heard it all. But here it's our friend pelegrino making a stupid, thoughtless dumb pseudo-prophet of himself--which is quite a misunderstanfing of what poetry should be .

So there is more talking about "sharks", and GREAT PELEGRINO is scaring the "sharks". Oh, soooo profound (soooo stupid!).

Talking about violence, rapes and social progress and poetry, read the genius Isaac Babel (there are translations), "The Red Cavalry Stories". This may open your mind onto life and art, on both. Nobody was more "political" then the superb artist Babel. He and poet Mandelstam and others, they payed with their life for their artistic convictions, not like cowards around these days.

More of the thoughtless demagogy. Aren't you getting tired with these cliches??!! And those endearing phrase "to spit at your face". Nothing sells as well as hate. Zero thinking but it is oh-so provocative, so righteus, so... wow-wow-wow.

And more slushing their throats. You don't get tired of this stuff, pelegrino, do you? And it's soooo poetically inventive, oh, what an eye opener .


And more of this stuff. Mercifully, this is the last stanza.

and you, with your self-proclaimed superiority, break the simple rule of critiquing a poem - address the poem, not the author. your attack on pelegrino is nothing new, or surprising, unfortunately. it's a shame you don't direct more of your time to improving your own writing.

 

[Magnetron]

May I humbly point you to the "ignore" option.

Senna talking out his asshole when it suits him isn't quite enough to warrant being on my Ignore list.

 

[bogusagain]

The financial world is a huge problem. It ties with other problems. And you don't show any understanding of the connections between them. Actually, you and others like you have sentiments which are contradictory. In effect, you are actually supporting the existing financial system, despite of what you say. And when it comes to slushing throats, it will be some naive folks slushing throats of other folks. It's never along the pelegrino's line "we" versus "others".

Read Isaac Babel, and see how complex and cruel life can be.

I'll start to present my views The Art of Agreement in the Poets' Hangout, let's see how it goes.

I understand the financial world or at least as much as most do, since the financial world doesn't understand itself which is how it created the economic crisis. This is what has been so shocking about the crisis, it exposed the ignorance within the financial world and how little financiers and bankers understood the risks of certain financial mechanisms. In fact, their ignorance was breathtaking and as several conservative politicians have pointed, they not only baffled the legislators with science, the bankers and financiers baffled themselves with science, not understanding the risks of their latest innovative financial products. You defend the bankers and financiers Senna, they are beyond the pale and rotten in the heart.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Poetry - p o e t r y - poetrY

A (real) poet is neither right nor wrong. A poet allows the reader to be right or wrong, if at all. There should be no author in a poem, meaning that there should be nobody claiming any superiority. A lyrical subject (the I of the poem) may appear but only like anything else, should not be treated differently from a stranger, or from a tree or a stone.

**************

A bunch of political cliches doesn't make a poem. A poem should have something real like individual scenes, a story of real people, it should have images, sounds, smells, ....

***************

Cliches kill poetry. But even worse are cliches which are inhuman like about slashing heads off, etc. To call inhuman verses a poetry is a travesty.

Poetry is an art of words. Each poet's word has to be responsible, meaning that it always has its literal meaning (not just the intended meaning). When you talk about killing people then that's the image you created, poetry is serious. Thus inducing violence is just horrible, it is not poetry.

 

[Magnetron]

Poetry is an art of words. Each poet's word has to be responsible, meaning that it always has its literal meaning (not just the intended meaning). When you talk about killing people then that's the image you created, poetry is serious. Thus inducing violence is just horrible, it is not poetry.

Hmmm ........


Cannibalistic Bliss


Wiping away the soaped over windows
Inside, the politicians
Making the fast buck
From your concerns, your woes
With their agendas
Self serving missions
Hear them declaring the shelves empty
In the backrooms of soup kitchens

As the poor
Weak
And tired
Line up outside the door

The hunger, thirst
Gone beyond insatiable
Need to feed
Supercedes any measure of self control
Disenchanted masses
With distended bellies never to be full

Salivating over the prospect of a wishbone

Eyeing the governing body
Like a roasted beast upon a silver platter
The bitter lining of their stomachs swallowed whole
From the inside out

Satin curtains ripped away
The windows shatter
Exposing the great illusionists of our day and age
Revealed for what they truly are
Pigs getting fatter
Hogging all the temple grain
Charletains on a stage

Dragged
Kicking and screaming
Into the audience
Devoured

Torn apart
Limb from limb
By the emaciated
Empowered

Bitten once too often
The hands that fed you bite back
With a deadly kiss

Starved for too long
The people attack
In a rage that can only amount to this

Cannibalistic bliss

 

[pelegrino]

Hi Seena!
You are trying to read too much to my poem and you assumed too much that there is not in it.
It is a simple poem stating simple facts in a strait forward manner.
That is the best approach to political poetry, as declared by all great political poets-not myself, I just follow their instructions (and not yours as you are not one of them).

It probably took you ten times as long to write all this bullshit analysis than it took me to write the bloody thing, thanks man.

I don’t know from which planet you come but here on Earth we have still social class divisions and we are involved into class struggles which frequently have lead and may do again into blood spill- naturally there is hate involved, I mean real serious hate that can lead to killing each other.
You seem to ignore even the basics of history.
Thanks also for calling me "THE GREAT PELEGRINO". Even in that derogatory manner. You make me feel like Ivan the Terrible or something!
In that sense (and only in that) you're also included, we are all great, oh, GREAT SEENA JAWA.

Thank you also for calling me a demagogue.
In its original Greek etymology the word means someone who guides people. It is neither here nor there if all illiterate westerners like yourself have adopted its new "political" meaning, but even so, a "great demagogue" does not exclude a great poet within.
So spare me all your opinions on any poetry political or otherwise, It is I who have the choice to speak and how to speak and the "I" in my poetry is a main functional element which cannot be devalued by how you feel about it. Spare me also your opinions on economics. You have not a clue about either subject.
Have a nice day and do as Butters suggested, spend sometime improving your own writings, I would add, even more importantly spent sometime becoming a better human being, you twisted sod!

 

[Magnetron]

The GREAT PELEGRINO has spoken.

 

[bogusagain]

devalorization

in Madrid they’re rioting
in Berlin they’re asking questions
in London they merely shrug
Mammon has earned his dues

our shackles like Marley’s chain
each new day forges another link
a reminder of how we sold the future
to the men who deal in souls

in Hampstead Cemetery Karl Marx growls
no need to say ‘I told you so.’
in Waterstones and Barnes & Noble
Das Kapital sells like porn

if anger was an energy
there’s be enough to blast
lay waste to their mirrored temples
and bring on a nuclear winter

this year’s winter coat has no pockets
an austere design which is purely utilitarian
a garment that is light and insubstantial
poverty grows like cancer

Ulrik declared as we drank in a Berlin dive
everyone who loves life, leaves Braunschweig
and there was me thinking it was Rotherham
remembering the wastelands of South Yorkshire

yet even there, the hoary earth
once gave up a living to those who toiled
but you end up digging for digging’s sake
they’ll always find someone at a more basic rate

Hildegaard Knef sings ‘Ich hab noch eine koffer in Berlin’
I consider the geographical roulette
the air of revolution in the cafes of Madrid
the hypocrisy of dishonest empathy

 

[Ashesh9]

Hi Seena!
You are trying to read too much to my poem and you assumed too much that there is not in it.
It is a simple poem stating simple facts in a strait forward manner.
That is the best approach to political poetry, as declared by all great political poets-not myself, I just follow their instructions (and not yours as you are not one of them).

It probably took you ten times as long to write all this bullshit analysis than it took me to write the bloody thing, thanks man.

I don’t know from which planet you come but here on Earth we have still social class divisions and we are involved into class struggles which frequently have lead and may do again into blood spill- naturally there is hate involved, I mean real serious hate that can lead to killing each other.
You seem to ignore even the basics of history.
Thanks also for calling me "THE GREAT PELEGRINO". Even in that derogatory manner. You make me feel like Ivan the Terrible or something!
In that sense (and only in that) you're also included, we are all great, oh, GREAT SEENA JAWA.

Thank you also for calling me a demagogue.
In its original Greek etymology the word means someone who guides people. It is neither here nor there if all illiterate westerners like yourself have adopted its new "political" meaning, but even so, a "great demagogue" does not exclude a great poet within.
So spare me all your opinions on any poetry political or otherwise, It is I who have the choice to speak and how to speak and the "I" in my poetry is a main functional element which cannot be devalued by how you feel about it. Spare me also your opinions on economics. You have not a clue about either subject.
Have a nice day and do as Butters suggested, spend sometime improving your own writings, I would add, even more importantly spent sometime becoming a better human being, you twisted sod!

Poland & Greece
No longer
@ Peace !?!

 

[pelegrino]

Poland & Greece
No longer
@ Peace !?!

Peace to you friend, I am at piece with myself and everybody.

 

[pelegrino]

Thank you both Magnetron and Bogusagain for sharing two very strong, manifold and poignant poems. There is too much in them to even start discussing, but they gave me lots of ground to reflect, which I'm still doing.

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] very strong, manifold and poignant poems

... and powerful, convincing, magnificent, overwhelming, insightful... blah-blah-blah...

There is too much in them to even start discussing, but they gave me lots of ground to reflect

Cheap bluff. Over the longer time in your po-pho-po-political "poems" you had nothing to say, and nothing concrete except for desecrating the WWII Greek victims by making up your false image in which you put the victims together with gold; and on the victims behalf you (unauthorized) wanted Greeks today to be given money earned by hard working young Germans which had no more responsibility for WWII than you. Oh, your writing was too so very strong, manifold, poignant, powerful, convincing, magnificent, overwhelming, insightful, blah-bah-blah.

You guys can vote and vote and vote against me. Poets don't need to vote. But on this board and on many others people vote, it gives them the feeling of being righteous. After Einstein's relativity theory papers a hundred German scientists (yeah, exactly 100, a hundred scientists) wrote a pamphlet:"100 scientists against Einstein". To this Einstein responded: if they were right then one would be enough. So keep bluffing and voting instead of thinking.

I have my inertia. I set myself to write about Art of Agreement, so at least I will start it. To do so here at PF&D is most likely another nonsense. But then, my whole view of the world is CHAOS, so this will be another proof of my view . Also, the inevitable part of CHAOS are flukes. Who knows, there may be someone who will surprise me, who will get something out of my AofA--I don't even have to be aware of it.

 

[bogusagain]

... and powerful, convincing, magnificent, overwhelming, insightful... blah-blah-blah...

Cheap bluff. Over the longer time in your po-pho-po-political "poems" you had nothing to say, and nothing concrete except for desecrating the WWII Greek victims by making up your false image in which you put the victims together with gold; and on the victims behalf you (unauthorized) wanted Greeks today to be given money earned by hard working young Germans which had no more responsibility for WWII than you. Oh, your writing was too so very strong, manifold, poignant, powerful, convincing, magnificent, overwhelming, insightful, blah-bah-blah.

You guys can vote and vote and vote against me. Poets don't need to vote. But on this board and on many others people vote, it gives them the feeling of being righteous. After Einstein's relativity theory papers a hundred German scientists (yeah, exactly 100, a hundred scientists) wrote a pamphlet:"100 scientists against Einstein". To this Einstein responded: if they were right then one would be enough. So keep bluffing and voting instead of thinking.

I have my inertia. I set myself to write about Art of Agreement, so at least I will start it. To do so here at PF&D is most likely another nonsense. But then, my whole view of the world is CHAOS, so this will be another proof of my view . Also, the inevitable part of CHAOS are flukes. Who knows, there may be someone who will surprise me, who will get something out of my AofA--I don't even have to be aware of it.

I thought you understood finance Senna? I live in Germany and love it here and almost all my social circle are German so I really have nothing against them. However, the Germans have made a killing out of the euro at the cost of southern European countries due to the euro being cheap for the German economy and it being expensive for southern European economies. There should never have been a eurozone incorporating such disparate economies. However the politicians thought differently and Goldman Sachs (who also made a killing) cooked books for Greece, a deal between two sinners, it has been called, while Germany turned a blind eye. Now ordinary Greeks have to endure the economic pain, insisted on by Germany because of corrupt financiers and corrupt politicians. Well, people have every right to be angry at such corruption that inflicts so much pain on so many innocent people. Poetry for posterity seems a frivolous luxury for future generations in the current situation. And the political and financial corruption doesn't start and end there. The whole damn capitalist edifice is guilty of leaching off ordinary people because politicians have effectively been bought by the financial world. A plague on all their houses.

 

[pelegrino]

I thought you understood finance Senna? I live in Germany and love it here and almost all my social circle are German so I really have nothing against them. However, the Germans have made a killing out of the euro at the cost of southern European countries due to the euro being cheap for the German economy and it being expensive for southern European economies. There should never have been a eurozone incorporating such disparate economies. However the politicians thought differently and Goldman Sachs (who also made a killing) cooked books for Greece, a deal between two sinners, it has been called, while Germany turned a blind eye. Now ordinary Greeks have to endure the economic pain, insisted on by Germany because of corrupt financiers and corrupt politicians. Well, people have every right to be angry at such corruption that inflicts so much pain on so many innocent people. Poetry for posterity seems a frivolous luxury for future generations in the current situation. And the political and financial corruption doesn't start and end there. The whole damn capitalist edifice is guilty of leaching off ordinary people because politicians have effectively been bought by the financial world. A plague on all their houses.

Well said, Bogus, I couldn't agree more.
I do not think Seena would know about or understand the economic situation of Southern Europe, or Eurozone in general or that he would be much interested even if he did know about it. He is more interested in the "art of agreement", what ever that may mean to anyone.
To me, re-quoting you, could mean:
"However the politicians thought differently and Goldman Sachs (who also made a killing) cooked books for Greece, a deal between two sinners, it has been called, while Germany turned a blind eye."
Is this the art of agreement, Seena?

 

[Senna Jawa]

Well said, Bogus, I couldn't agree more.

Pelegrino, this is something new to you. I am willing to learn about it too. Be straight, pelegrino--you talked about the WWII victims, etc.

I do not think Seena would know about or understand the economic situation of Southern Europe, or Eurozone in general or that he would be much interested even if he did know about it.

(Aren't you guys tired of personal attacks, or even of Bogu's obsessive talking over years about my arse--regardless of Bogu's political, dietary, touristic, philosophical, financial, economic and sexual orientation, Bogus--try to leave my arse alone.)

How is the situation of Greece different from the situation of Poland, with respect to the euro and Germany? Somehow, there is no issue raised in Poland about this.

From East European people who worked hard for Greeks as their servants and similar for years, the picture was that Greeks had it easy, that they lived above their means.

He is more interested in the "art of agreement", what ever that may mean to anyone. ... Is this the art of agreement, Seena?

When you talk like this you're so cheap and ignorant that it is disgusting.

I'll try to continue the AofA. Step by step. Even if nobody cares it can be still a good writing experience for me. I really don't care about those who don't care.

 

[Magnetron]

Pelegrino, this is something new to you. I am willing to learn about it too. Be straight, pelegrino--you talked about the WWII victims, etc.

(Aren't you guys tired of personal attacks, or even of Bogu's obsessive talking over years about my arse--regardless of Bogu's political, dietary, touristic, philosophical, financial, economic and sexual orientation, Bogus--try to leave my arse alone.)

How is the situation of Greece different from the situation of Poland, with respect to the euro and Germany? Somehow, there is no issue raised in Poland about this.

From East European people who worked hard for Greeks as their servants and similar for years, the picture was that Greeks had it easy, that they lived above their means.


When you talk like this you're so cheap and ignorant that it is disgusting.

I'll try to continue the AofA. Step by step. Even if nobody cares it can be still a good writing experience for me. I really don't care about those who don't care.

I almost threw up in my mouth.

Do as Senna says, not as Senna does.

 

[bogusagain]

Bogus--try to leave my arse alone.)

I'll do my best Senna.

You just made me so bloody angry with your accusation but enough.

BTW Poland isn't in the euro, it has its own currency and that is the difference. The UK was smart enough to stay out as well, which is why Polish is now the second largest language in the UK, with 700,000 Polish migrants and another 600,000 other east Europeans. The economy is always going to be better when you can export your unemployed. But that was the whole point of the EU at one time, cooperation but now corporate capitalism is playing one population off against another. It will all end in tears.

 

[Senna Jawa]

I thought you understood finance Senna?

The question is: do you, Bogu, understand it?

I live in Germany and love it here and almost all my social circle are German so I really have nothing against them. However, the Germans have made a killing out of the euro at the cost of southern European countries due to the euro being cheap for the German economy and it being expensive for southern European economies.

You're trying to say that Greek economists are that naive, and that they were naive over long years? It's very hard to accept it.

There should never have been a eurozone incorporating such disparate economies.

This statement is too general to make sense. A priori, there should be nothing wrong with any Zone, it's just a name. One needs to go into particulars.

In general, yes, the early EU (it had then a different name) was great: they removed all kind of barriers (within EU): freedom to travel, to work, to marry, they removed import duties, ... So far so good, even wonderful. But then they developed the cancer of bureaucracy which is step by step killing the whole idea of EU--instead of freedom, now they have a GOVERNMENT which is not even properly elected. Oh, well, I got here away from Greece but it is related. No GOVERNMENT--no abuses and temptations. When the GOVERNMENT or some people in the GOVERNMENT want to make a few hundreds or millions for themselves they hurt the societies causing waste of hundred of millions or billions. Be it the EU or other governments, its all the same.

 

[pelegrino]

You're trying to say that Greek economists are that naive, and that they were naive over long years? It's very hard to accept it.
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It is not that Greek economists are naive, Seena, it is just that Greek politicians, and all other politicians of the world, (of right wing ideologies mainly) were and still are puppets of corporate capitalism. That's how all the dirty deals were agreed, not only about Greece but also about much bigger economies like Spain and Italy.
I really am amazed that you cannot grasp this simple fact.

 

[Senna Jawa]

The UK was smart enough to stay out as well, which is why Polish is now the second largest language in the UK, with 700,000 Polish migrants and another 600,000 other east Europeans.

That's how more or less it was some years ago, before the crisis. Many Poles went back to Poland. I don't know why, but Poland was not hurt much by the crisis.

I started to read about the Greek crisis. The materials which I see start at the earliest with 2007. They really write about 2010 or 2012 and later. However, it's clear that the true crisis has started much earlier, and not later than in 1980s.

BTW, I am not well read in anything, be it poetry or economy or anything. I am just good at thinking. More reading would only help.

And about you being mad at me you were really mad at yourself.