Possible use cases for second person POV?

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Ran across a 'new' story this morning that I think was done this way. Don't remember which story.

Backed out after a couple of paragraphs, too uncomfortable to read.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

If you insist:

Dammit, you got my bad side.

 

[TheLobster]

There is no use, to my recollection, of the pronoun "I" in the narration of the novel.

But if you were to replace “you” with “I”, would any meaningful aspect of the narration be lost? If not, then I’m becoming more and more convinced that 2P is just a stylistic/grammatical choice, not a narrative one.

The analogy to camera PoV gives that away. There are no 2P perspective video games; it’s only FPP and TPP. You can usually point a TPP camera at the front of the character and sometimes even lock it as you move them, but that doesn’t make the game suddenly “SPP.”

 

[Britva415]

It's from the Disney show Phineas and Ferb. Here's the first or best-known clip, but it was also used on other occasions on that show.

I can't tell whether you're saying this to defend it or what reason. idgaf what it's from. I have the same feelings about it as I have about all the posers who stopped counting three on their fingers the way they grew up with and started doing it the Inglourious Basterds way when that movie came out.

 

[Britva415]

There are no 2P perspective video games

Right. You have to go back to text-based games to get that.

Zork, Thy Dungeonman, etc

 

[Britva415]

Ran across a 'new' story this morning that I think was done this way. Don't remember which story.

Backed out after a couple of paragraphs, too uncomfortable to read.

They get published all the time. I don't read new stories every day, but every day that I do, I find at least one of these.

I generally nope out no later than the instant I realize it's happening, but I do occasionally give it a mildly closer look just to see if my bias might be false.

It almost never is. Nearly universally, when these come up on Lit's new-story lists, the rest of the story has many other painfully amateurish flaws too, not just this one. And those other flaws also become apparent within just a couple-few paragraphs.

That's the reason I nope out so fast: It isn't inherently because 2p is painful, it's because 2p almost always signals that the pain of the 2p narration will only be one facet of a multi-faceted painful experience with no payoff to make up for the pain.

 

[YmaOHyd]

But if you were to replace “you” with “I”, would any meaningful aspect of the narration be lost? If not, then I’m becoming more and more convinced that 2P is just a stylistic/grammatical choice, not a narrative one.

In some schools of narratology, it is, and that's mostly what I've come around to in every case except choose-your-own-adventures.

 

[Britva415]

if you were to replace “you” with “I”, would any meaningful aspect of the narration be lost?

I know you're talking about a particular novel, but more generally, there are situations where a 2p story couldn't just be re-personed in 1p statements and have the same meaning.

 

[Britva415]

If the story somehow magically delves into "you's" thoughts, then it's more complicated, or probably just sloppy.

Yeah, that would be inexcusably sloppy. Along the lines of what roleplayers call "powergaming."

There is an exception: When the story is told in grammatical second person but is really an internal monologue of someone's thoughts as they "talk" to themselves in their head.

Other ways of telling a second-person story which don't spring the powergaming trap include: Shared reminiscences told by one of the parties who was there to the other party who was there, or, a story told in imperatives such that the narrator is giving instructions to "you." This can unfold as a story as subsequent statements can narrate what events happen, what "your" actions were, as the result of previous imperatives.

Now, that also smells very powergamey. Telling "you" what to do is not powergamey because it's different from telling "you" what "you" did (powergamey), and both are different from an outside person telling "you" what "you" think or feel (extremely powergamey).

Both of those situations are powergamey in that they rankle the reader's sense of agency. But one of them is easier to swallow than the other. It's not too hard to suspend disbelief when the story is itself plausible. Master told "me" (or whoever "you" is) to bend over? And then "I" ("they") did it? Yeah, that could happen.

But it's a broken narrative and a severely flawed story when Master is telling your own thoughts and feelings to you in a mindreading psychic kind of way. Unless the theme is either in-universe gaslighting or fantastical psionic powers, this more often just reads as "Come on, how tf could they know that ffs. ESP my ass."

 

[StillStunned]

They get published all the time. I don't read new stories every day, but every day that I do, I find at least one of these.

I generally nope out no later than the instant I realize it's happening, but I do occasionally give it a mildly closer look just to see if my bias might be false.

It almost never is. Nearly universally, when these come up on Lit's new-story lists, the rest of the story has many other painfully amateurish flaws too, not just this one. And those other flaws also become apparent within just a couple-few paragraphs.

That's the reason I nope out so fast: It isn't inherently because 2p is painful, it's because 2p almost always signals that the pain of the 2p narration will only be one facet of a multi-faceted painful experience with no payoff to make up for the pain.

It's almost enough to make you wish for the return of Clippy. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to write in 2P POV. Are you sure you want to do this? You're already a crap writer, and this will only make it worse. Would you like some help with a style that's closer to your current level of skill?"

And the same for 1P present tense. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to write in 1P present tense. What are you, a fucking millennial? My default settings will shut down the system and delete your crap draft if you switch to a different character in the next chapter."

 

[fuckmehardandsoft]

I think 2P is generally a cheap choice if the "you" is supposed to be the reader. I'm writing a series of epistolary stories ATM so there's going to be some 2P (increasingly over the chapters, as I'm starting with the character relating memories before they met and will continue into their relationship), so the "you" is actually a character of his own. I think this is better because the use of 2P isn't pandering to the reader, it's expressing interpersonal connection between the POV character and his partner.

 

[StillStunned]

I think this is better because the use of 2P isn't pandering to the reader, it's expressing interpersonal connection between the POV character and his partner.

This is the first time I've ever heard 2P described as "pandering".

 

[StillStunned]

I think 2P is generally a cheap choice if the "you" is supposed to be the reader. I'm writing a series of epistolary stories ATM so there's going to be some 2P (increasingly over the chapters, as I'm starting with the character relating memories before they met and will continue into their relationship), so the "you" is actually a character of his own. I think this is better because the use of 2P isn't pandering to the reader, it's expressing interpersonal connection between the POV character and his partner.

I just saw that this was your first post here, so I hope you'll see my comment above as a bit of banter between fellow writers.

But I think my point stands: 2P POV is generally considered a big risk. Readers are likely to nope out after the first few lines, and the ones who finish your story will often express their hatred of 2P.

Where I can agree with you is if the story is written in 1P POV, but addressing a "you". In those stories, there's a clear narrator - the "I" - directly engaging with the reader, as the "you", or perhaps inviting the reader to place themselves in the position of the "you".

Done well, that style can be very engaging, but it can also feel like a "cheap choice", as you say. An easy was to engage the reader in a story that doesn't warrant the style, much like the current trend to use 1P present with different narrators. An epistolary is an example of where it's warranted, but it's not the only format where it works.

But however you look at it, any story that uses "you" will be viewed with suspicion and will face an uphill struggle from the very first paragraph to win the reader over.

 

[Britva415]

I think 2P is generally a cheap choice if the "you" is supposed to be the reader

Is that ever the case, though?

What is an example of a 2p piece where the addressee in the reader's position is not supposed to be a character and is supposed to personally be the reader?

 

[StillStunned]

What is an example of a 2p piece where the addressee in the reader's position is not supposed to be a character and is supposed to personally be the reader?

Something along the lines of Jerk-Off Instructions?

 

[TheLobster]

Something along the lines of Jerk-Off Instructions?

“It puts the lube on the shaft or it gets the chafing again”?

Oh wait, no, that’s 3P omniscient.

 

[Britva415]

“It puts the lube on the shaft or it gets the chafing again”?

Oh wait, no, that’s 3P omniscient.

I like that example. It says to me, "2p is so bad even Buffalo Bill won't use it!"

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Is that ever the case, though?

What is an example of a 2p piece where the addressee in the reader's position is not supposed to be a character and is supposed to personally be the reader?

I can imagine a horror story.

That whining sound, like a mosquito but not as steady, hear it? It's almost like a tiny animal breathing, right next to your ear. In fact, you feel tingling in your left ear, right? Just a little tickle where its legs are pressing lightly against you, a tiny scratching feeling that runs so deep you already know you can't reach it with the tip of your finger.

Does the dizziness you're feeling worry you? It's normal, she's in your middle ear now, where balance lives. She'll leave your ear in a minute, don't worry about that.

She'll be inside your skull, looking for the tasty part of your brain.

 

[Britva415]

I can imagine a horror story.

I don't get it. How is "you" not a character in that example?

 

[StillStunned]

I can imagine a horror story.

But the *reader* isn't actually experiencing those things, are they? Or if they are, it would be a colossal coincidence.

People often complain about 2P that "you can't tell me what I'm feeling!" But they never complain about being told what's happening around them, or to them. My story "Into The Night" doesn't suppose that the reader is actually a washed-up cyberpunk superstar spending part of every night in a virtual reality. The "you" is clearly a fictional character, and the reader is invited to share that space for a little while.

But if you write an erotic story inviting the reader to masturbate - by directly addressing them - the "you" becomes the reader. Like I mention above, it would probably take the form of JOI: "Can you picture me kneeling before you, mouth open, ready for your cock?"

Of course that would actually be 1P, but you can get around that by instructing the reader to imagine someone sexy. "Your first crush. The one who got away. Can you picture her? Can you picture her naked? Can you picture her kneeling before you, mouth open, ready for your cock?"

 

[Britva415]

But the *reader* isn't actually experiencing those things, are they? Or if they are, it would be a colossal coincidence.

People often complain about 2P that "you can't tell me what I'm feeling!" But they never complain about being told what's happening around them, or to them. My story "Into The Night" doesn't suppose that the reader is actually a washed-up cyberpunk superstar spending part of every night in a virtual reality. The "you" is clearly a fictional character, and the reader is invited to share that space for a little while.

But if you write an erotic story inviting the reader to masturbate - by directly addressing them - the "you" becomes the reader. Like I mention above, it would probably take the form of JOI: "Can you picture me kneeling before you, mouth open, ready for your cock?"

Of course that would actually be 1P, but you can get around that by instructing the reader to imagine someone sexy. "Your first crush. The one who got away. Can you picture her? Can you picture her naked? Can you picture her kneeling before you, mouth open, ready for your cock?"

 

[anthrodisiac]

Is that ever the case, though?

What is an example of a 2p piece where the addressee in the reader's position is not supposed to be a character and is supposed to personally be the reader?

You can have works where the second person is actually the reader is a custom story specifically for the person reading it, using second person to refer to them. I've done this for a few partners, some sexy stories about us.

 

[Britva415]

You can have works where the second person is actually the reader is a custom story specifically for the person reading it, using second person to refer to them. I've done this for a few partners, some sexy stories about us.

Sounds like the absolute opposite of "cheap."

These have been a lot of ideas but I don't know if any of them were what @fuckmehardandsoft had in mind.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

But the *reader* isn't actually experiencing those things, are they? Or if they are, it would be a colossal coincidence.

The idea was to induce those sensations using power of suggestion.

 

[Britva415]

The idea was to induce those sensations using power of suggestion.

Sure, but the story's still about an in-universe character, it's not personally about the reader, yeah? The character feels the things because that's the content of the story, whereas the reader might feel them if the storytelling has that effect on them.