Psych Thread: You teach me, I teach you

[Djmac1031]

I could. But I don’t think you’d listen, since you already ignored the one I posted already about riding in to the rescue. (Thou hast been bazinga’d, m’lord)

Ah yes, excuse your assholery by accusing me of White Knightery.

I don't give a fuck what you wanna call it.

Call it being a White Knight if that makes you feel better.

I call it Pointing Out Bullshit When I See It.

 

[jsmiam]

… I actually like this, in theory…

well played, well played. ;-).

You clearly ARE already a masterful psychologist. My apologies for doubting and underestimating you!

Apologies all around. I shall disable my reply button.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

...you teach me and I'll teach you... POKEEEMOOONNNNNN!

 

[Paul_Chance]

White Knighting is generally harmless. As far as disorders are concerned, it falls under the Messiah (or Savior) Complex.

As with all disorders its diagnosis depends on frequency, prevalence, and the degree to which it disrupts a person's life.

It can be a symptom of delusional disorder, schizophrenia or manic-depressive disorder. In rare occasions it can pop up in the symptoms of narcissism.

 

[StillStunned]

White Knighting is generally harmless. As far as disorders are concerned, it falls under the Messian (or Savior) Complex.

As with all disorders its diagnosis depends on frequency, prevalence, and the degree to which it disrupts a person's life.

It can be a symptom of delusional disorder, schizophrenia or manic-depressive disorder. In rare occasions it can pop up in the symptoms of narcissism.

In my day, it was a mostly futile attempt to get into a girl's knickers.

 

[Paul_Chance]

In my day, it was a mostly futile attempt to get into a girl's knickers.

LOL - yep, that is where it falls into the "mostly harmless" category.

White Knighting Online - mostly harmless, usually done to try to get virtually laid or be perceived as "a good person".

 

[Djmac1031]

White Knighting is generally harmless. As far as disorders are concerned, it falls under the Messian (or Savior) Complex.

My comments had nothing to do with being a White Knight.

Someone was being an asshole to someone else.

I pointed it out.

Gender identity of any involved party is irrelevant.

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[Djmac1031]

In other words, try acting like an adult.

Thanks. I'll take that under advisement.

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[AchtungNight]

Uh oh, the boys are getting upset.

This site has forums for the same reason they have categories, so people can find what the best place to talk about or look at what they're in the mood for.

This forum has become a haven for misogyny. A woman who wants to take about their boobs or how they like sex is welcome here. A woman who shows up who doesn't feed that? Yeah, good luck to them, they'll be attacked, mansplained and deal with disgusting PM's until they leave. This thread speaks for itself in that regard. Boys will be boys, right?

Take your frat boy behavior to the personals or the playground or chat where it belongs.

Also feel free to put me on ignore if I'm pissing on your juvenile behavior.

I think a lot of the behavior here has to do with the age old debates over sex positivity vs negativity and what kinks are acceptable. I can’t speak for anyone else, but my kinks are consent, comfort, and a good deserving reward for every character based on the story and their place in it. Same for people in the real world who deserve just rewards and respect. If you’re one of those people- it’s up to you to make that evident to others and earn your reward accordingly. So far you aren’t doing too well with me.

 

[Lifestyle66]

... I am brand new to all of your foibles, and so I’m sick of none of you. Yet.

SciFi geek that I am, I suddenly thought of the movie "Star Trek: Wrath of Kahn", as Kahn is determined to chase and destroy Kirk ...:

S"He tasks me! She tasks me!"

 

[AwkwardlySet]

How about we all collectively stop posting whatever comes to our mind here, and just see if the OP can maybe start what she said - analyzing characters from some story. I believe it would be an interesting experience if she could link the story, and give us her character analysis so we could all discuss it here. Since the book club thing doesn't seem to be happening, this might be something nice where we could discuss actual writing and share opinions. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, and I am always happy to joke and mess around here, but it would be nice if we had one serious thread that isn't about LW, non-con, or ratings for a change. Hopefully, OP didn't vanish in the meantime.

I am saying this with all the love for our usual chatterboxes and thread-derailers

 

[AchtungNight]

How about we all collectively stop posting whatever comes to our mind here, and just see if the OP can maybe start what she said - analyzing characters from some story. I believe it would be an interesting experience if she could link the story, and give us her character analysis so we could all discuss it here. Since the book club thing doesn't seem to be happening, this might be something nice where we could discuss actual writing and share opinions. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, and I am always happy to joke and mess around here, but it would be nice if we had one serious thread that isn't about LW, non-con, or ratings for a change. Hopefully, OP didn't vanish in the meantime.

I am saying this with all the love for our usual chatterboxes and thread-derailers

Sounds awesome to me. If the OP is interested, I’ll volunteer my work.

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[EmilyMiller]

How about we all collectively stop posting whatever comes to our mind here, and just see if the OP can maybe start what she said - analyzing characters from some story. I believe it would be an interesting experience if she could link the story, and give us her character analysis so we could all discuss it here. Since the book club thing doesn't seem to be happening, this might be something nice where we could discuss actual writing and share opinions. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, and I am always happy to joke and mess around here, but it would be nice if we had one serious thread that isn't about LW, non-con, or ratings for a change. Hopefully, OP didn't vanish in the meantime.

I am saying this with all the love for our usual chatterboxes and thread-derailers

Oh fuck! I’d completely forgotten about the book club . Other RL stuff - sorry!!!

Em

PS Not staying to chat - don’t want to incur @AwkwardlySet ‘s wrath (wrath? )

 

[EmilyMiller]

I will apologize for being overly cranky to Em. It was late, a headache woke me up. Call me Captain McCluskey. Too grouchy. Em took over the thread a little more so than how she usually takes over threads. But there’s no rule about that. My apologies.

Thanks for the apology.

Em

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I genuinely don’t feel like it’s trolling if everyone is getting along.

https://media.tenor.com/7ucVhq-2F8cAAAAC/breaking-bad.gif

 

[Djmac1031]

That and unlike others I have some dignity and won't lower myself to middle school behavior.

You really should pull the stick out of your ass and try it sometime.

You might actually enjoy yourself.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Oh, that makes more sense.

I mean yeah. It tracks that an erotica forum, ie, a community of horny creative escapists, would be full of folks trying on new identities. But it’s okay. I genuinely don’t feel like it’s trolling if everyone is getting along.


It’s okay. And indeed to anything Genndy Tartakovsky has ever touched.

The thread would probably be more focused if I were doing a better job of showing my face and keeping us on task! I promise to try and get some official psych thoughts on here today for those of you who asked for them. It has been a nerdy delight getting to look at your characters and stories.

It's so cute you think that. Welcome to the Mad Hatters tea party. Cut of a slice of tea from the pot and hang out.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

White Knighting is generally harmless. As far as disorders are concerned, it falls under the Messiah (or Savior) Complex.

As with all disorders its diagnosis depends on frequency, prevalence, and the degree to which it disrupts a person's life.

It can be a symptom of delusional disorder, schizophrenia or manic-depressive disorder. In rare occasions it can pop up in the symptoms of narcissism.

Or trying to get that pussy.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

You really should pull the stick out of your ass and try it sometime.

You might actually enjoy yourself.

That yankees too distinguished for humor. Anything he sez funny is purely by accident. He's from Maine, ya know. Or Maryland. I forget. It's all that salty sea air.

Anybody that's been here over a year or two knows how he can be, most of us are unbothered. He's a grouchy old man who can be pretty helpful.

 

[LittleLilyCanWrite]

@Erozetta

You asked me to look at How Much More.

Apologies in advance, these notes I write as I read, so please bear with:

• Ben is reasonably confrontational with Lena for how long they have been seeing each other
• Ben is less aware of his somatic responses than Lena is, which is amusing; perhaps she flusters him
• The first appointment should technically have included a whole spiel/convo about informed consent, but for storytelling it’s probably ok to omit or gloss over
• Jumping right into “sex and kinks” with an opposite-gendered client is a RL no-no for all kinds of reasons, but again this is erotica so plz go ahead
• No f***ing way would clients be invited to an office party with clinicians, esp one where alcohol is being served, unless it was entirely by accident, and even then the ethics are knotty
• This autistic woman knows when someone is flirting with her? Not unheard of, just atypical. Autism is a versatile diagnosis, and especially in women can coexist with advanced social skills; but flirting is still next-level in terms of doublespeak and subtext. In combination with her intake assessment, this suggests to me that sex/sexuality is perhaps one of our protagonist’s classically autistic “obsessions,” which yeah, makes for a super interesting erotica premise!
• Our protagonist is worried about Ben casually engaging in extreme breeches of confidentiality; coincidentally, i have found that this is not uncommon in my own autistic clients, as they can tend to perseverate on matters of trustworthiness; I call this “playing mind chess,” as they often seem to be trying to think twelve moves ahead, and consider all potential social outcomes, worst-case-scenarios included, equally worth planning for if not equally likely
• Yeah, again, John’s invite to the party is a herculean no-no
• Small shoutout to the cosplay scene; a blessed haven for our ND friends
• Crushes between client and counselor are as common as you can imagine; counselors are trained to self-monitor for these feelings as they arise, to seek consultation asap if they are affecting therapy, and them often to address the elephant in the room outright with clients; it is not necessarily unethical to let a client know you feel sexual attraction so long as you do so gently and without self-interest; it is crucial to leave space to talk about the ramifications for the therapeutic relationship, as the client may wish to see another counselor, especially if the “crush” is mutual, or they may wish to stay and continue treatment (actually the most common outcome); what matters most from both an ethical and therapeutic standpoint is transparency; sexual tension is normal between humans, but while decorum in day to day life is to demure, it is the obligation of the therapist to model open and nonjudgmental confrontation of even the least comfortable emotions; note, all of this presumes the client does not have issues/crises specifically pertinent to sexual or romantic trauma, in which case much more discretion (and alas, less transparency) would be essential to protecting not just their wellbeing but their faith in the helping profession; note also, this is always a case by case puzzle, thus why consultation with a trusted colleague/superior is always step one
• Ben should have excused himself from the party (and reported John for serious ethical violations asap, if this weren’t a piece of erotic fiction)
• You are correct that therapists are ethically mandated in most (all?) states not to date any past clients until a period of at least 6 months after termination; obvs, dating a current client is universally prohibited
• Hell no to John being her new counselor in real life. How could she trust him not to manipulate her? Or even just to do his job correctly? He’s already demonstrated a roguish aversion to standard operating procedures (like, say, simply talking to his colleague about his concerns re Lena). Plus, he strikes me as the kind of know-it-all therapist who likes to give advice, play the expert, ask questions he already knows the answer to, etc. In short, this guy does not seem very therapeutic to be around, especially for a young female client with a complicated relationship to sex. He needs a reality check. But okay, insofar as he’s a secondary character in a piece of erotica, he’s more or less serving his purpose. I get he’s a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy. I just wish he was gruff and observant without being unscrupulous and manipulative.
• I should note by this point in the story it is clear Lena has some kind of addictive relationship with sex; this is fascinating given her autism, ie her regular need for unmasked respite, and probably (but by no means definitively) points to some unresolved sexual trauma; this is not exactly a Sherlockian deduction, I know, but the reality is sexual trauma is rampant in our society, especially among ND women, and so it behooves a therapist to be vigilant for signs
• Note the immediate discomfort as Lena gets off the elevator, her anxiety around running into John. This is realistic, and tragic. Your therapist’s office (and the hallway leading to it) should be a calming, centering place. Alas, Lena’s sense of psychological safety has been damaged by her encounter with John. And as the licensed professional who should know better, that is his fuckup, not hers.
• A two year wait to date a past client? Damn. What state is this taking place in? (Note, the waiting period does not to my knowledge ‘scale’ with the length of the therapeutic relationship, but an ethical review board might waive the usual waiting period under the right circumstances.) EDIT: Now that I think about it, you (Lena) may be right. Two years might be the minimum. Thing is, it’s so rare and ill-advised regardless, it’s just one of those numbers I guess I didn’t bother to memorize.
• Actually, the posture Ben describes Lena sitting in (collapsed inward, arms crossed, small) is probably more accurately described as closed off, self-conscious, or guarded; granted, “vulnerability” is not a posture thing so much as a mode of being in good therapy, a welcome feature of achieving genuine trust and psychological safety, and as such it can look any number of ways; still, “guarded” (like Lena) is probably not one of them; to be clear, though, it is very realistic for Ben to call attention to Lena’s nonverbals, as this is a huge part of helping clients learn to self-monitor; worst case scenario, you read them wrong and elicit a spike in self-consciousness, but they are free to correct you, and hey, now you are both paying attention to their somatic experiences, which with practice can have lasting therapeutic benefits
• Ben’s double-question “Do I make you uncomfortable? Feel vulnerable?” is problematic on two fronts. One, it’s a fairly basic no-no, to ask more than one question at a time. Two, he has effectively equated discomfort with vulnerability, which is simply odd from a mental health perspective. As a licensed therapist, he has years of training, literally thousands of hours, in which he has honed his skill at bringing people comfortably into a state of openness and vulnerability. Not only is vulnerability a crucial goal of his with all clients, but he should know that discomfort is in his line of work practically antithetical to vulnerability
• Interrupting is a hard habit to break for many American therapists, but especially with a client who is struggling with masking behaviors and self-confidence, it is ill-advised and something Ben should be avidly self-monitoring (and apologizing) for
• Alright, so, this is a piece of delectable erotica and I kind of just want to stop taking notes now so I can start masturbating like a good little reader. I hope that’s okay! I have given you a lot of notes. Sorry that they are less about psychodiagnostics and more about how to portray a convincing therapist in a fictional, sexually charged setting. I admit I am left thirsty for a piece of erotica that really does capture what it’s like to want to fuck my own client, and struggling against not just my ethical mandates but my genuine concern for their treatment, my passion for the helping profession, and of course my own myriad private insecurities. It’s no wonder therapeutic relationships are a recurring motif in erotica (at least, if the many pieces I’ve been asked to look at are anything to go by). The sexual tension is so common and can be very intense, given the intimacy and trust already baked into the equation. The conflict between animalism and professionalism is primordially human. The need I have, personally, to get off to a great therapist-client fantasy is, let me assure you, achingly real. And so, with your blessing, I hereby conclude my note-taking.
• Splendid work. I love this piece. I do not mean my notes to be discouraging or invalidating. I can tell you did some research, and I humbly appreciate you letting me share my thoughts.

Edit: In my own confusion, I may have presumed wrongly that Lena was meant to be ASD. Sorry if this was not the case. Again, ASD is just such a wily, dynamic diagnosis. Fwiw, it in no way diminishes my reading of her. She is a fascinating case study any way you cut it.

 

[LittleLilyCanWrite]

I'm not sure I understand the invitation. Are you offering to read stories for accuracy of the depiction of psychological disorders?

The more I read of what folks are sending me, the more I understand about what I can offer. Sure I can conjecture about a character’s psychology, but it probably won’t blow anyone’s minds. I am not very good at making exciting or surprising observations, but just correct ones.

Instead, what folks seem more commonly to need me for is insight into counseling, as a profession and/or a lifestyle. Lots of little misconceptions can add up quickly, but I am happy to comb through and point these out. Especially fiddly are ethical questions. Our guidelines are numerous, dense, and not always intuitive; plus, they can vary by state, specialty, and client population. Thankfully for you, I am a very, very nerdy nerd. So, I am beginning to see myself as a narrowly specific kind of editor who can point out inaccuracies pertaining to counseling-related story choices, explain how a more accurate telling might look, and then leave the rest to the writer.

Fwiw, I have been very much enjoying reading these pieces so far.