Question to editors...and writers

[RogueLurker]

I refuse to post an ass shot as an av.

Any suggestion on what I should have, though?

I like the idea of an AV that means something to me. Of the AVs I was playing around with ... each had some special meaning to me.

The movie poster above is a movie that I saw that was very influential at the time in my life.

The Balinese Barong mask is one similar to one in my collection. I was fascinated by the Balinese mythologies when I took a religious anthroplogy course.

The shades is me ... on a trip that we took down to New Orleans prior to Katrina. We were on a Swamp Tour and I was blown away at the beauty of swamp and bayous ... something I didn't know to expect.

The Martian ... was really just a place holder. I always liked him though.

And most importantly ... all of them looked cool.

 

[FallingToFly]

I like the idea of an AV that means something to me. Of the AVs I was playing around with ... each had some special meaning to me.

The movie poster above is a movie that I saw that was very influential at the time in my life.

The Balinese Barong mask is one similar to one in my collection. I was fascinated by the Balinese mythologies when I took a religious anthroplogy course.

The shades is me ... on a trip that we took down to New Orleans prior to Katrina. We were on a Swamp Tour and I was blown away at the beauty of swamp and bayous ... something I didn't know to expect.

The Martian ... was really just a place holder. I always liked him though.

And most importantly ... all of them looked cool.

So how's this?

 

[kbate]

~removed~

 

[RogueLurker]

Roguelurker - I am sorry I thought you were male. I do not pay attention to avatars as an indication of sex, or sexual preference, I normally do not look at them at all.

Not a problem, kbate ... that's probably a wise practice considering that there are no truths on the internet. I was only teasing, anyways. You aren't the first and you won't be the last to make that assumption. I'm just not used to being mistaken for a male ... or straight for that matter

 

[David1943]

If I were an author.....

I'd like to know what I would be facing in editors. Are they good? Are they professional in manner? Can they smooth out the bumpy trails in my work? Will the work be more polished and acceptable after they have done their "magic"?

But I'm not an author, nor am I an editor ....... yet. So what do I know. LadyC, it would be great to come in and find someone who is experienced and willing to help.

As far a probation goes, I volunteer to be put there until someone is reckless enouh to allow me to try to polish their work.

Hugs and kisses.

D

 

[LadyCibelle]

~Removed~

**

I shall ignore the General Board comment, as I cannot ignore you for it, such is beneath your reputation. I also have several hundred posts on the GLBT and Story Feedback forums, do you wish to take a shot at those as well?

~removed~

You can ignore my comment and hate me for it as much as you want. I just said what I thought,....coming from the GB, you (well maybe not you personally) have a history of being antagonistic and that's all I've ever felt coming from you towards me.

I might be unfair, and I apologize if I am, but I have to go with what I'm feeling coming from you and that's all I've got.

 

[LadyCibelle]

I'd like to know what I would be facing in editors. Are they good? Are they professional in manner? Can they smooth out the bumpy trails in my work? Will the work be more polished and acceptable after they have done their "magic"?

But I'm not an author, nor am I an editor ....... yet. So what do I know. LadyC, it would be great to come in and find someone who is experienced and willing to help.

As far a probation goes, I volunteer to be put there until someone is reckless enouh to allow me to try to polish their work.

Hugs and kisses.

D

I would be happy to see you on the editors' list and/or the green list when it's done David.

As I told you, it's not done yet but I feel that it's gonna be a good thing for everyone IF everyone gives it half a chance.

 

[kbate]

~removed~

 

[LadyCibelle]

Hostility? Espousing an opposing view, a different method to the same end, is hostile? I have never posted a single hostile word in this forum, yet now because I post on a borad you dislike, everything I post is to be discounted as troublemaking and general hostility. How very open minded.

I was fairly plain in my belief that such a plan is unworkable without cooperation from Laurel and Manu in some manner or other. That they do not handle complaints to your satisfaction now, does not mean that they would not if asked by a group of editors and authors, who had some proof of poor editing to present.

How this became hostility, I do not know, nor care, as I am certain I will remove this post shortly as well.

I won't bother posting again on this, I see no point.

Lets try again, shall we?

now, does not mean that they would not if asked by a group of editors and authors, who had some proof of poor editing to present.

It's been done countless time and never achieved anything.

How many times in my replies to you have I said something along the line of " the editing quality of the VE is bottom on Lit's Admin's priority list"? I don't know and I don't care to look for the answer but I'm pretty sure it's more than 3 times.

Have you taken once the time to read me properly? Frankly, I don't think so!

That you don't agree with me is one thing, but that you don't read properly what I'm saying and twist everything I say to make it suit your agenda is another thing.

You want to believe the green list would be a "popularity contest" and "favourites" only thing...fine...but take off your blinders for a minute and reread everything I have said on the subject and you might find yourself wondering where the heck you were when I was repeating time and time again that I agreed with you on all counts.....IF Manu and Laurel were caring for the editors' list as much as WE the editors do!

 

[LadyCibelle]

I give up! We'll never see eye to eye or understand each other.
I have nothing against you as I don't know you....fighting with you and/or arguing to try and make you understand what I'm trying to do seems to be pointless.

Let's stop the fight...I hate fights.

 

[kbate]

Lets try again, shall we?



It's been done countless time and never achieved anything.

How many times in my replies to you have I said something along the line of " the editing quality of the VE is bottom on Lit's Admin's priority list"? I don't know and I don't care to look for the answer but I'm pretty sure it's more than 3 times.

Have you taken once the time to read me properly? Frankly, I don't think so!

That you don't agree with me is one thing, but that you don't read properly what I'm saying and twist everything I say to make it suit your agenda is another thing.

You want to believe the green list would be a "popularity contest" and "favourites" only thing...fine...but take off your blinders for a minute and reread everything I have said on the subject and you might find yourself wondering where the heck you were when I was repeating time and time again that I agreed with you on all counts....If Manu and Laurel were caring for the editors' list as much as WE the editors do!

I would agree with your plan entirely if you were to send a PM to each of the 1022 volunteer editors on the list and have them state their case for inclusion. The site owners felt they had the qualifications, they should be given a chance to respond. Otherwise, it is a popularity contest, among the editors and authors who are active on the forum.

btw, I don't have an agenda here, I am not the one planning a 'green list'. I only wish to see it implemented without hurting anyone, and with maximum fairness if it is implemented, if that is an agenda, so be it.

If the VE list is not a priority of the site owners, how exactly does it fall to site users to correct them? Perhaps Laurel might have some input on the creation of such a list, she does answer Private Messages when the subject deals with the story side of the site.

I lied about not posting again. Sorry.

 

[RogueLurker]

I would agree with your plan entirely if you were to send a PM to each of the 1022 volunteer editors on the list and have them state their case for inclusion. The site owners felt they had the qualifications, they should be given a chance to respond. Otherwise, it is a popularity contest, among the editors and authors who are active on the forum.

btw, I don't have an agenda here, I am not the one planning a 'green list'. I only wish to see it implemented without hurting anyone, and with maximum fairness if it is implemented, if that is an agenda, so be it.

If the VE list is not a priority of the site owners, how exactly does it fall to site users to correct them? Perhaps Laurel might have some input on the creation of such a list, she does answer Private Messages when the subject deals with the story side of the site.

I lied about not posting again. Sorry.

The way that I envision this is to have a post for finding editors. In this post three options will be given.

The author can try the VE List (links provided) for the largest selection of editors.

The author can post a request on the EF (as people frequently do) and either arrange by PM or through posts for an editor. We can suggest what info should be included in the request (eg. category, turn around time, kind of editing required, etc)

If the author is frustrated with either of these routes, they can try the Green List of editors who have voluntarily added their names. These editors are volunteering their services, and are active (some of the 1000 profiles are out of date) and have some proven ability/skill/willingness to edit. This list will grow as editors wish to be added to the list. And this list will also only really be used by people who come to the forums in the first place ... which a large number of readers, authors and editors don't.

Is this a fair way to proceed? I'm open to suggestions ...

 

[LadyCibelle]

I would agree with your plan entirely if you were to send a PM to each of the 1022 volunteer editors on the list and have them state their case for inclusion. The site owners felt they had the qualifications, they should be given a chance to respond. Otherwise, it is a popularity contest, among the editors and authors who are active on the forum.

btw, I don't have an agenda here, I am not the one planning a 'green list'. I only wish to see it implemented without hurting anyone, and with maximum fairness if it is implemented, if that is an agenda, so be it.

If the VE list is not a priority of the site owners, how exactly does it fall to site users to correct them? Perhaps Laurel might have some input on the creation of such a list, she does answer Private Messages when the subject deals with the story side of the site.

I lied about not posting again. Sorry.

Looks like I also lied in saying "I give up".

The site owners felt they had the qualifications, they should be given a chance to respond.

You're joking right? You really think you need any kind of qualifications to be included on the VE list? Don't you know that you only need to create a VE profile to be included on the list?

I only wish to see it implemented without hurting anyone, and with maximum fairness if it is implemented, if that is an agenda, so be it.

And that's exactly what I want also. I don't want the list to become a popularity contest or favourites only. Anyone and everyone can be included on the list IF they request it. Someone would be taken out of the list after careful consideration if complaints were made against that particular editor.

If the VE list is not a priority of the site owners, how exactly does it fall to site users to correct them?

If doesn't fall to the site users to correct them...but if everyone says "it's none of my business" nothing will be done to change it. The "not in my backyard" theory doesn't work anymore. We, the editors, need to stand up for what we believe in and take a stand for what is right before a handful of rotten apple destroy everything.

[...]she does answer Private Messages when the subject deals with the story side of the site.

Yeah, she does answer PM's dealing with stories....but....when it's a PM about an editor, complaint about an editor, it seems to disappear into the ether as the people doing the complaint never seem to get a response to their complaint.

 

[LadyCibelle]

The way that I envision this is to have a post for finding editors. In this post three options will be given.

The author can try the VE List (links provided) for the largest selection of editors.

The author can post a request on the EF (as people frequently do) and either arrange by PM or through posts for an editor. We can suggest what info should be included in the request (eg. category, turn around time, kind of editing required, etc)

If the author is frustrated with either of these routes, they can try the Green List of editors who have voluntarily added their names. These editors are volunteering their services, and are active (some of the 1000 profiles are out of date) and have some proven ability/skill/willingness to edit. This list will grow as editors wish to be added to the list. And this list will also only really be used by people who come to the forums in the first place ... which a large number of readers, authors and editors don't.

Is this a fair way to proceed? I'm open to suggestions ...

Thanks Rogue for keeping a cool head about it.

I think I'm too close to it and take every jab at the project personally.

You've stated clearly, consisely and openly what we want to do with the green list. Nobody would be forced to be on it or use it.

We all keep our free will about it.

 

[kbate]

If the author is frustrated with either of these routes, they can try the Green List of editors who have voluntarily added their names. These editors are volunteering their services, and are active (some of the 1000 profiles are out of date) and have some proven ability/skill/willingness to edit. This list will grow as editors wish to be added to the list. And this list will also only really be used by people who come to the forums in the first place ... which a large number of readers, authors and editors don't.

I see nothing wrong with this. It does not correct the problem that occasioned the thread, the fact that horrible editors are on the ve list and some writers still use them, wasting their time and perhaps ruining their stories. It does offer additional options, which may save those writers who frequent the forum some time and steer stories toward active editors.

The downfalls?
* New editors may find it difficult to start.
* Writer interpretation may well be as "if you are not here, you suck" regardless of the benign intent of the list.

*****

On the topic..

I would love to see lit force each volunteer editor to update their profile at least yearly, preferably quarterly in order to remain listed. I cannot imagine more than 1 in ten of the listed editors are actually editing.

I would love to see a list of writers, with each VE on the list who might be contacted through PM for reference.

I would love to see a feedback on the editor's profile for writers to use. Similar to the story feedback.

I do not know how this could be implemented but I am certain it could be done.

 

[FallingToFly]

On the topic..

I would love to see lit force each volunteer editor to update their profile at least yearly, preferably quarterly in order to remain listed. I cannot imagine more than 1 in ten of the listed editors are actually editing.

There's also the issue of people not knowing, or caring, that the VE list is available. I was on it for years, never got a single request.

I would love to see a list of writers, with each VE on the list who might be contacted through PM for reference.

May or may not be feasible, my dear.

I would love to see a feedback on the editor's profile for writers to use. Similar to the story feedback.
I do not know how this could be implemented but I am certain it could be done.

The code for this is already written, has to be, as it's available on the story side of things. It would just be a matter of putting it in to the VE pages. And -that- is where the issue lies, as it would require gods only know how long for Laurel, manu and anyone else capable of coding the site to run through those 1022 profiles.

My two cents and change.

 

[RogueLurker]

I see nothing wrong with this. It does not correct the problem that occasioned the thread, the fact that horrible editors are on the ve list and some writers still use them, wasting their time and perhaps ruining their stories. It does offer additional options, which may save those writers who frequent the forum some time and steer stories toward active editors.

The downfalls?
* New editors may find it difficult to start.
* Writer interpretation may well be as "if you are not here, you suck" regardless of the benign intent of the list.

*****

On the topic..

I would love to see lit force each volunteer editor to update their profile at least yearly, preferably quarterly in order to remain listed. I cannot imagine more than 1 in ten of the listed editors are actually editing.

I would love to see a list of writers, with each VE on the list who might be contacted through PM for reference.

I would love to see a feedback on the editor's profile for writers to use. Similar to the story feedback.

I do not know how this could be implemented but I am certain it could be done.

I know that this doesn't really address the issue that started the whole discussion ... but the only way to address it is to post a "Stay away from" list and that is something nobody really wants to do ... it sounds great in the heat of the moment, but the abuses that could happen are all too possible. Ignorance, mishief and maliciousness could result in good editors being slammed. Also the retaliation threads and flames that might occur would be damaging to the Forum as well.

So, looking from a positive perspective, we can offer the alternatives discussed in my last note.

For the downfalls:
As a new editor myself ... it pretty much sucks no matter how you slice it. I still can't get my freaking VE profile to snap out of Pending. So I came down here and threw my hat in the ring when people asked for editors. I got lucky in some instances, no responses in others, and got matched up with a very good but very prolific writer ... so I don't have alot of time for more stories. In my mind, the green list isn't meant to exclude new editors ... they can get on it no problem ... but if there are complaints, valid complaints, they will be removed. From what I've seen, LadyC appears to be extremely protective about editors and if there is an author whose complaints are unmerited (didn't like that the editor didn't like the story), I don't expect that she will side with the author.

As for interpretion that "if you aren't on the list, you suck" ... we can't control how people will percieve it. The best I can offer is that we put the wording to a consensus vote to make sure that it is as inclusive and non-judgemental as possible. We're editors here ... we can all take a swipe at the document until it is perfect.

As for your other comments ... I completely and wholeheartedly agree ... but let's start with baby steps. We'll tackle those issues next week.

 

[LadyCibelle]

I see nothing wrong with this. It does not correct the problem that occasioned the thread, the fact that horrible editors are on the ve list and some writers still use them, wasting their time and perhaps ruining their stories. It does offer additional options, which may save those writers who frequent the forum some time and steer stories toward active editors.

The downfalls?
* New editors may find it difficult to start.
* Writer interpretation may well be as "if you are not here, you suck" regardless of the benign intent of the list.

*****

On the topic..

I would love to see lit force each volunteer editor to update their profile at least yearly, preferably quarterly in order to remain listed. I cannot imagine more than 1 in ten of the listed editors are actually editing.

I would love to see a list of writers, with each VE on the list who might be contacted through PM for reference.

I would love to see a feedback on the editor's profile for writers to use. Similar to the story feedback.

I do not know how this could be implemented but I am certain it could be done.

Here is where we, you and I, are completely in agreement!!!!

I know that this doesn't really address the issue that started the whole discussion ... but the only way to address it is to post a "Stay away from" list and that is something nobody really wants to do ... it sounds great in the heat of the moment, but the abuses that could happen are all too possible. Ignorance, mishief and maliciousness could result in good editors being slammed. Also the retaliation threads and flames that might occur would be damaging to the Forum as well.

So, looking from a positive perspective, we can offer the alternatives discussed in my last note.

For the downfalls:
As a new editor myself ... it pretty much sucks no matter how you slice it. I still can't get my freaking VE profile to snap out of Pending. So I came down here and threw my hat in the ring when people asked for editors. I got lucky in some instances, no responses in others, and got matched up with a very good but very prolific writer ... so I don't have alot of time for more stories. In my mind, the green list isn't meant to exclude new editors ... they can get on it no problem ... but if there are complaints, valid complaints, they will be removed. From what I've seen, LadyC appears to be extremely protective about editors and if there is an author whose complaints are unmerited (didn't like that the editor didn't like the story), I don't expect that she will side with the author.

As for interpretion that "if you aren't on the list, you suck" ... we can't control how people will percieve it. The best I can offer is that we put the wording to a consensus vote to make sure that it is as inclusive and non-judgemental as possible. We're editors here ... we can all take a swipe at the document until it is perfect.

As for your other comments ... I completely and wholeheartedly agree ... but let's start with baby steps. We'll tackle those issues next week.

Yeah, one step at a time. Lets all try to walk in the same direction instead of doing war on every single word one of us say.

Kbate: If I owe you an apology for being unfair with you, you have it. I'm very protective of editors, just like I'm protective of writers, be it mine or not, if someone comes to me with a complaint I investigate before putting in my two cents.

I'm not perfect, contrary to popular belief , and I'm more than able to admit if and when I'm wrong.

No hard feelings?

 

[fieryjen]

I would love for Kbate to keep posting here, because I think contrary opinions are valuable and often necessary so we can see the things we may have overlooked, all being in agreement, and I know Kbate isn't afraid to voice said opinions. It would be great if we could all do that without anyone getting hurt, threatening to leave or feeling offended.

I know not all may appreciate the kisses and roses, but here they are anyway ~

 

[CopyCarver]

I would love for Kbate to keep posting here, because I think contrary opinions are valuable and often necessary so we can see the things we may have overlooked, all being in agreement, and I know Kbate isn't afraid to voice said opinions. It would be great if we could all do that without anyone getting hurt, threatening to leave or feeling offended.

I know not all may appreciate the kisses and roses, but here they are anyway ~

Absolutely! I've had far more heated disagreements with myself, and they were usually beneficial.

 

[LadyCibelle]

I would absolutely LOVE for Kbate to keep posting and even argue with me if she thinks I'm way over crazy.

I get my danders up pretty easily but cool head always prevails in the end and I'm the first one to admit my mistakes.

We need to have dissenting opinions at time if we want to make our project the best it can be.

Thank God for all the Kbate of this world!!!

 

[RogueLurker]

Dear God ... if a group hug starts, I'm outta here.

Seriously, I think that the discussions on this over the past few days have been invaluable. We've had to go back and re-think several things and every question or issue that has or will be raised needs to be looked at and addressed.

I'm glad that kbate and LadyC are both pushing on several of these issues ... because its forcing us to stop and reassess before we go forward boldly with a flawed plan. I don't think we're near a final and agreed upon solution ...but we're making remarkable progress in such a short period of time.

 

[LadyCibelle]

Dear God ... if a group hug starts, I'm outta here.

Seriously, I think that the discussions on this over the past few days have been invaluable. We've had to go back and re-think several things and every question or issue that has or will be raised needs to be looked at and addressed.

I'm glad that kbate and LadyC are both pushing on several of these issues ... because its forcing us to stop and reassess before we go forward boldly with a flawed plan. I don't think we're near a final and agreed upon solution ...but we're making remarkable progress in such a short period of time.

What's wrong with group hug????? Don't you know it's the perfect opportunity for some salacious groping?

Seriously, I think we're on the right track....we're going back and forth with ideas and that's what'll make it "perfect" when we finally settle on "the" solution.

 

[CopyCarver]

What's wrong with group hug????? Don't you know it's the perfect opportunity for some salacious groping?

Seriously, I think we're on the right track....we're going back and forth with ideas and that's what'll make it "perfect" when we finally settle on "the" solution.

Merely having a list of active editors is going to be a huge help, especially to newbies who have no way of knowing that hundreds of the people on the home page editors' list disappeared about the same time as Jimmy Hoffa. Several of "my" writers have commented about long waits for replies that never came.

It might be helpful also to clue the newcomers to explain upfront whether they're looking for proofreading, line editing, copy editing, or complete rewrites. Personally, I'm OK with anything except the last but it sometimes requires multiple e-mails and PMs, and tons o'time, to clarify this point the first time I've worked with a writer.

BTW, is the group hug a mandatory prerequisite to the salacious groping? The ends would justify the means but...

 

[FallingToFly]

Merely having a list of active editors is going to be a huge help, especially to newbies who have no way of knowing that hundreds of the people on the home page editors' list disappeared about the same time as Jimmy Hoffa. Several of "my" writers have commented about long waits for replies that never came.

It might be helpful also to clue the newcomers to explain upfront whether they're looking for proofreading, line editing, copy editing, or complete rewrites. Personally, I'm OK with anything except the last but it sometimes requires multiple e-mails and PMs, and tons o'time, to clarify this point the first time I've worked with a writer.

BTW, is the group hug a mandatory prerequisite to the salacious groping? The ends would justify the means but...

Woohoo, group gropes!!

Say that ten times fast...