Sarah Palin

[Selena_Kitt]

*rolls eyes* It's that thing between your legs that makes you a man. That's all. Everything else is social construction.

It's not the thread to get into it, so I'll just hijack for a moment...but personally, I think you're wrong. In spite of the nature/nurture arguments abounding in psychology and everywhere else today, I think masculine and feminine exist, apriori (ala Plato) and it isn't just a biological construct at all.

I happen to agree with Doc's assessment of the situation... and Sev's reaction. I get it, Sev. Women can and do emasculate men - we've actually done it on a cultural level for a long time, in spite of the "feminist" objections to the contrary - and I think one of the reasons Doc is so interested in Palin's new brand of woman (shallow and superficial as she is) in the public eye is for just that reason.

Can we have a powerful woman in the world who isn't interested in emasculating men? Who doesn't just want to flip the power differential?

It isn't Sarah Palin, that's for sure. But she's an interesting case study.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I think that the very existence of the word "emasculate" -- and its use by a respected member of this forum -- means that you're right. If another man is stronger or higher in the hierarchy than they are, men don't like it, but they put up with it, because that's life. If a woman is stronger or higher in the hierarchy, somehow they think this makes them less than men.

*rolls eyes* It's that thing between your legs that makes you a man. That's all. Everything else is social construction.

That's absurd. Strong women aren't emasculating. Strong women who call a man's masculinity into question are emasculating. Strong women (or men) who leverage their sexuality to get results -- to intimidate, to pressure, to influence -- are guilty of sexual manipulation whether it's emasculation, implicit rape, harassment, or whatever.

I find Palin to have more than a touch of the Amazon about her and to be more threatening than women like Hillary, who don't leverage their sexuality. But Palin obviously uses her role as wife and mother to intimidate and cow her opponents. (She uses her looks too, but you can't blame her for that, though I find it odd that she always wears a skirt.) They ask whether Obama would have gotten where he is had he been white. Would she have gotten where she is had she been a man? Look at how she's used this role of wife and mother as a shield to deflect all serious criticism and rally support for her candidacy. Look at how she already has Biden handcuffed as he enters into debate with her. Look at her followers' "Leave our Sarah alone!" campaign.

And now, when she appears with McCain, she's obviously the center of attention and the big draw, the charismatic core of his campaign. You might see him as being upstaged. I see this as sexual drama, though, so i see him as being sexually manipulated. I see him as being politically emasculated.

 

[Corylea]

*rolls eyes* It's that thing between your legs that makes you a man. That's all. Everything else is social construction.

It's not the thread to get into it, so I'll just hijack for a moment...but personally, I think you're wrong. In spite of the nature/nurture arguments abounding in psychology and everywhere else today, I think masculine and feminine exist, apriori (ala Plato) and it isn't just a biological construct at all.

By the "between your legs" comment, I didn't mean that there were no differences -- I meant that it wasn't something that anyone could take away from you.

Can we have a powerful woman in the world who isn't interested in emasculating men? Who doesn't just want to flip the power differential?

What I want is for there not to BE a power differential -- not man on top, not woman on top. I think the problem is that many, many men equate their not being on top with women being on top. They've been on top for so long that equality looks like one-down to them.

 

[rgraham666]

Well, a large portion of my gender are testosterone addled morons so I don't expect rational thought from them.

I'm referring to the ones who regard life as a zero sum power game.

 

[Corylea]

And now, when she appears with McCain, she's obviously the center of attention and the big draw, the charismatic core of his campaign. You might see him as being upstaged. I see this as sexual drama, though, so i see him as being sexually manipulated. I see him as being politically emasculated.

Palin is an asshole, and she's behaving as so many Republicans do -- lying, flinging mud, and upholding principles in public that she breaks in private. She's doing it with different weapons than most Republican men do because keeping gender roles rigid is so important to most Republicans, so they want her to use different weapons.

As for her upstaging McCain, do you really think she's doing it without his knowledge and consent? As long as the hoopla is about her, he can duck questions about his temper, his age, his lying, and his general fitness for office. She's a distraction, when she should be part of why his fitness for office is questioned, but so far, her being a distraction is working. No, I don't weep for McCain -- I weep for my country.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

They ask whether Obama would have gotten where he is had he been white. Would she have gotten where she is had she been a man?

To the extent Man Palin was viewed as an effective reformer and challenger of the self-serving, self-perpetuating and inbread political establishment that's taken controll of Alaska's government (and every other state's and the national too), he would have been just as popular as she is. Your analyis of how she's effectively used her female qualities is very good, but there's no reason to think "he" wouldn't have effectively used his male ones.

(As for Obama, he's a first-term Senator with the most liberal voting record in that body and no biography to speak of - hardly a likely prospect to get the Dem nomination absent other factors.)

 

[Corylea]

(As for Obama, he's a first-term Senator with the most liberal voting record in that body and no biography to speak of - hardly a likely prospect to get the Dem nomination absent other factors.)

That "other factor" is charisma -- don't underestimate its power in human affairs.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

That "other factor" is charisma -- don't underestimate its power in human affairs.

There's also a level of integrity there that we haven't seen in many politicians before (and definitely not for a loooooooooooooooong time).

But I worry... it's a damned high pedestal to fall from.

As for Palin being a distraction, you are 100% correct. It's one of the things the feminine (read: not females, the feminine) is good at. She's playing her role for the campaign quite well.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

CORYLEA

Men dont think twice about 'women on top.' Men think about women for one or two things. We go along and get along.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Palin is an asshole, and she's behaving as so many Republicans do -- lying, flinging mud, and upholding principles in public that she breaks in private. She's doing it with different weapons than most Republican men do because keeping gender roles rigid is so important to most Republicans, so they want her to use different weapons.

As for her upstaging McCain, do you really think she's doing it without his knowledge and consent? As long as the hoopla is about her, he can duck questions about his temper, his age, his lying, and his general fitness for office. She's a distraction, when she should be part of why his fitness for office is questioned, but so far, her being a distraction is working. No, I don't weep for McCain -- I weep for my country.

Well, as I said, she's obviously not fit to be vice president. That simply goes without saying. But it's still fascinating political theater, and Selena's right: Palin interests me just as she interests Paglia, as a new kind of feminine archetype: the Baby furnace/Amazon. The Entirely Capable Woman, able to run a government or field dress a moose. I respect her. I wouldn't go out with her or vote for her, but I respect her.

Seeing her strutting around in her skirt and heels with Todd, her captive male (ever notice how he always keeps a few respectful paces behind her, holding a child? The only thing he's missing is a collar) is a new vision in American politics and I think it works on a subconscious level for a lot of people. She's like the weekend Domme-Mom. The Right, who always swoons for strong, authoritarian figures, male or female (see Anne Coulter), just eats it up and gets off on the crypto-femdom buzz. (How much does it take to see Palin in boots and leather corset, carrying a whip?) while the Left is incensed for the same reasons.

McCain is left without a clue. He's like her vanilla client, her Sugar Daddy, who paid for a quick roll in the hay and is now finding she's a bit too kinky for him.

I don't think he's in control of the situation at all anymore. No one wants to see him. They want to see her. Yet if he cuts her loose, she's going to sink herself with gaffes, or at least prove that no one cares about issues and intelligence in American elections. They vote for the person who most reminds them of themselves and always have. The American electorate is an idiot beast. And I include myself in there too.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

Youre correct..its about Palin not McCain. The local op-ed page ignores McCain and fumes/sputters about a Palin administration. But where they elevate Palin they reduce Obama at the same time via the comparison.

 

[Corylea]

Seeing her strutting around in her skirt and heels with Todd, her captive male (ever notice how he always keeps a few respectful paces behind her, holding a child? The only thing he's missing is a collar)

I haven't seen any of those things, because I haven't watched TV since 1986. I get my news from newspapers and miss a lot of stupidity and heartbreak. (Which is not to say that there's none in newspapers, just that it's not as vivid.)

is a new vision in American politics and I think it works on a subconscious level for a lot of people. She's like the weekend Domme-Mom. The Right, who always swoons for strong, authoritarian figures, male or female (see Anne Coulter), just eats it up and gets off on the crypto-femdom buzz. (How much does it take to see Palin in boots and leather corset, carrying a whip?) while the Left is incensed for the same reasons.

*laugh* Gee, Doc, we mightn't be seeing things through our own personal lens, might we? *grin* *tease*

McCain is left without a clue. He's like her vanilla client, her Sugar Daddy, who paid for a quick roll in the hay and is now finding she's a bit too kinky for him.

I don't think he's in control of the situation at all anymore.

Might I respectfully suggest that you could be doing a wee bit of projecting, here?

No one cares about issues and intelligence in American elections. They vote for the person who most reminds them of themselves and always have. The American electorate is an idiot beast. And I include myself in there too.

I think it's true that far fewer care about issues than should. On the other hand, until Bush re-wrote the Constitution, the principal power of the office of President was the power of persuasion -- that "bully pulpit." People are best persuaded by people who are most like themselves, so there could be a tiny trace of sense in their voting methods.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Seeing her strutting around in her skirt and heels with Todd, her captive male (ever notice how he always keeps a few respectful paces behind her, holding a child? The only thing he's missing is a collar)

YES!!!!

She's like the weekend Domme-Mom. The Right, who always swoons for strong, authoritarian figures, male or female (see Anne Coulter), just eats it up and gets off on the crypto-femdom buzz.

CLICK! *lightbulb*

DUH!

How did I miss that!??!?! You're absolutely right. It's totally the authoritarian thing going on.

 

[rgraham666]

As Erich Fromm pointed out in Escape From Freedom there is a close match between the submissive and authoritarian mindset.

Both are predicated on merging their identity to a 'greater thing'. In doing so they gain certainty and lose responsibility.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

As Erich Fromm pointed out in Escape From Freedom there is a close match between the submissive and authoritarian mindset.

Both are predicated on merging their identity to a 'greater thing'. In doing so they gain certainty and lose responsibility.

Excellent point. Wow, that was a big missing piece for me. Thanks, guys

 

[Corylea]

Excellent point. Wow, that was a big missing piece for me. Thanks, guys

Have you read Adorno et al's The Authoritarian Personality? It's pretty old now, but some things don't change much. It's sobering.

 

[rgraham666]

It's a great book, Selena. Really gave me a different perspective.

I got a good story, Hypothesis out of it.

 

[rgraham666]

Have you read Adorno et al's The Authoritarian Personality? It's pretty old now, but some things don't change much. It's sobering.

Nope. But I'll have to find a copy now.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Have you read Adorno et al's The Authoritarian Personality? It's pretty old now, but some things don't change much. It's sobering.

Not the whole thing But I've been exposed to it yeah... it's a blind spot of mine, which is why I missed it. My own stuff.

Glad to have the insight, tho!

 

[Corylea]

it's a blind spot of mine, which is why I missed it. My own stuff.

Glad to have the insight, tho!

Well, the form my issues take is to shout, "Asshole!" whenever I encounter an authoritarian personality.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Well, the form my issues take is to shout, "Asshole!" whenever I encounter an authoritarian personality.

LOL

Me, I'll smile and nod... and the whole while, will be plotting their imminent death. When you least expect it... expect it.

 

[Belegon]

no biography to speak of

would that be the best-selling, Grammy Award winning one?

Seriously, Roxy, please tell me you meant it some other way.

Because this comment is just plain fucking stupid otherwise. If you mean Biography as in "life-story", you are completely fucking clueless.

 

[DeeZire]

Has Rox quoted the most recent Kathleen Parker op ed yet, the one that suggests Palin should pull out of the race? This would be after KP had written five op ed pieces supporting Palin. Apparently, KP's reservations stem from Mrs. Palin's dismal performance in her 3 staged interviews.

I'd go find the link, but I don't need Kathleen Parker's expert opinion to reinforce what I've known all along. Speaking in her interview today on NPR, Ms Parker laughed about all the hate mail she's been getting from conservatives, accusing her of abandoning the Republican Party. Her explanations is that she's not abandoning the party, she's just abandoned an unqualified candidate.

(Someone may want to reference the KP op ed for Rox, since, last I heard, she had me on ignore.)

 

[Selena_Kitt]

would that be the best-selling, Grammy Award winning one?

Seriously, Roxy, please tell me you meant it some other way.

Because this comment is just plain fucking stupid otherwise. If you mean Biography as in "life-story", you are completely fucking clueless.

And Sarah Palin's beauty pageant "Miss Congeniality" sports reporter biography is so much fuller??

Talk about no biography to speak of...

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

When McCain dies of a heart attack, I really don't want Palin as my president.

If McCain wanted a woman, there were so many more qualified Republican women he could have chosen.

Unfortunately, she just may be our reality because people would rather vote for an idiot beauty queen, a woman who can't carry even her own state, than vote for a brilliant black man and graduate of Harvard Law School.