Sarah Palin

[ottohauser1977]

What utter nonsense. But clearly, you like to "slaughter logic", as you accused me of doing.

Plenty of Americans earn their keep and make a decent living. If they can avoid having the taxman steal it, that is. They could do so better without that damned income tax. You know, the middle class. Perhaps you've heard of them.

Are some gains ill-gotten? Certainly, but that happens in every society. Corruption and greed are inherent to all social strata. The poor are as greedy as the rich. They just don't apply it as effectively. Or as ruthlessly at times.

I'm not advocating that the rich pay nothing or get a free ride. There are some taxes, for instance, that primarily the rich would pay under my revised revenue system. A champagne tariff, for instance. And probably a wine excise, as well.

Are some folks suffering from lack of health care? Yes, and that will have to be remedied. That's a rare case where the private sector has opted itself out, through pre-existing conditions (which happened to me, recently, so you can see that I'm not Mr. Rockefeller here) and large deductibles. I have reluctantly admitted the need for some socialized medicine, simply to fill the gaps. Between user fees, tariffs, and excises, it should be affordable. Provided that we get rid of dead weight by privatizing state monopolies that could function better in the private sector. AMTRAK, for instance.

Confiscating and selling stock options of disgraced executives would be another step forward. But only after trial, of course. Due process of law must be observed. I'm opposed to civil forfeiture because it violates due process.

Is that socialism? Perhaps a dose. But not enough to destroy the meritocracy, especially if we give worthy contractors the chance to also build up our infrastructure while we're at it. Maybe that would help boost the construction industry and allow new entrepeneurs to make something of themselves.

Another way to help would be to negotiate contracts, where breach is punishable by fines, where private companies would provide health insurance to all of the presently uninsured, with the stipulation that they don't forgo rules like pre-existing conditions and the like. That would provide universal coverage while reducing bureaucracy and not driving private companies out of business. Bidding should be competitive, new companies should be allowed to compete, too, and the main conditions that the government should demand are more altruistic in nature.

Why am I being more specific about my ideas? Because I don't want to be accused of being "pie in the sky by and by" or the like. I will accept a policy change on its merits, provided that has such merits.

But a classless society is simply impractical. Even in your vaunted social democracies, people still get rich. It's the nature of the beast.

For a man who claims to reject socialism, you have some remarkably progressive views. For instance, socialized medicine hasn't been advocated by a militant conservative since: Bismarck. That's who you remind me of, in fact. Bismarck. A man with conservative ideals, but who was willing to "steal the socialists' thunder" with socialized medicine, old-age pensions, and unemployment insurance. He did this at a time when most countries considered these ideas anathema.

See? Just advocating one Marxian prescription doesn't make you a Marxist. Marx also advocated public schools, but so did Jefferson and Horace Mann. They weren't Marxists, were they? Just needling you a bit, but you must admit that I have a point.

 

[john-the-author]

Keeping the fruits of your own labor isn't a free ride, since it requires you to work to earn it. Those able-bodied, employable folk who don't work are getting the free ride, at the expense of those who do. That's the great Marxist tradition, starting with lazy old Karl Marx himself, who never did a day's work in his life.

Actually, this needs correcting. Marx (who I'm no particular fan of by the way) supported himself with writing and editing. He didn't, for the most part, have a glamorous lifestyle, but he was working considerably. Anyone here should be able to appreciate the amount of work it is to be a writer and to try to make a living from it.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Come on. You guys are way over Sarah's head here.

 

[sr71plt]

Come on. You guys are way over Sarah's head here.

Wouldn't it be a bit difficult not to talk over Sarah's head?

 

[shereads]

Come on. You guys are way over Sarah's head here.

She'll dominate the Evening Gown event. Just you wait.

 

[Boxlicker101]

She'll dominate the Evening Gown event. Just you wait.

She might win the bathing suit event too, but she will probably not win Miss Congeniality again.

 

[ottohauser1977]

And this is the woman that 64% of Republicans want to be their standard-bearer. One can only hope that they get their wish. It would be nice to have another two-term Democratic President.

 

[Boxlicker101]

And this is the woman that 64% of Republicans want to be their standard-bearer. One can only hope that they get their wish. It would be nice to have another two-term Democratic President.

Are you saying that 64% of Republicans wrote in Sarah Palin on their ballots? No wonder McCain lost!

 

[ottohauser1977]

Are you saying that 64% of Republicans wrote in Sarah Palin on their ballots? No wonder McCain lost!

No, more that this percentage favored her for the Republican nomination in 2012. If they had done what you mentioned, the landslide would have been more crushing, I think.

 

[Boxlicker101]

No, more that this percentage favored her for the Republican nomination in 2012. If they had done what you mentioned, the landslide would have been more crushing, I think.

Oh. Okay. It's just that it seems awful early for that kind of polling.

 

[ottohauser1977]

Oh. Okay. It's just that it seems awful early for that kind of polling.

Yes, but try telling the pollsters that.

 

[SlickTony]

That, to me, is not a meritocracy, it's an aristocracy.

Agreed, but I believe the current term for it is "kleptocracy."

We need to get back to where we actually MAKE STUFF in this country. The export of manufacture, while what gets bought and sold here are artificial constructs in the form of complicated financial instruments that few can understand, has enriched the investor class at the expense of the wage-earning class; in fact the income tax structure is balanced on the backs of the latter. I remember a few years back, one of the catchphrases was the "ownership society;" did they actually anticipate that a couple making in the area of $50K a year would end up having to sell shares of company stock to pay their income tax because they'd rolled over a couple of grand into an IRA earlier in the year, because they couldn't cough up the amount all at once?

BTW, Severus, the reason you get called a Libertarian is that the rest of us have read enough Libertarian writings, from Rand on down to her various acolytes, to where we're familiar with the patter. I've slung the cant myself in my time.

 

[ottohauser1977]

Agreed, but I believe the current term for it is "kleptocracy."

We need to get back to where we actually MAKE STUFF in this country. The export of manufacture, while what gets bought and sold here are artificial constructs in the form of complicated financial instruments that few can understand, has enriched the investor class at the expense of the wage-earning class; in fact the income tax structure is balanced on the backs of the latter. I remember a few years back, one of the catchphrases was the "ownership society;" did they actually anticipate that a couple making in the area of $50K a year would end up having to sell shares of company stock to pay their income tax because they'd rolled over a couple of grand into an IRA earlier in the year, because they couldn't cough up the amount all at once?

BTW, Severus, the reason you get called a Libertarian is that the rest of us have read enough Libertarian writings, from Rand on down to her various acolytes, to where we're familiar with the patter. I've slung the cant myself in my time.

Yes, outsourcing is a crime against the working class, at the risk of sounding like my Communist father.

Though I get the impression from his postings that Severus is in the confusing process of a political conversion. Having done that myself before, I wish him luck. It's never easy.

 

[cloudy]

BTW, Severus, the reason you get called a Libertarian is that the rest of us have read enough Libertarian writings, from Rand on down to her various acolytes, to where we're familiar with the patter. I've slung the cant myself in my time.

But then you grew up.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Yes, outsourcing is a crime against the working class, at the risk of sounding like my Communist father.

Though I get the impression from his postings that Severus is in the confusing process of a political conversion. Having done that myself before, I wish him luck. It's never easy.

More or less. Thanks. You're right. It's not easy. And it's not the first time for me, either. It's less an issue of "growing up", as some would put it. More of processing additional information and finally accepting the conclusions thereof. That I resisted the implications is evident, but it's probably due to the fact that it would require of a considerable revision of my chosen ideology. But facts are stubborn things, as they say. And I'm not the sort to resist them forever, when they become self-evident.

Leaving an ideology is a lot like leaving a religion, but I suspect that you already know that. It's not lightly done, especially when you are struggling to formulate an alternative.

 

[shereads]

More or less. Thanks. You're right. It's not easy. And it's not the first time for me, either. It's less an issue of "growing up", as some would put it. More of processing additional information and finally accepting the conclusions thereof. That I resisted the implications is evident, but it's probably due to the fact that it would require of a considerable revision of my chosen ideology. But facts are stubborn things, as they say. And I'm not the sort to resist them forever, when they become self-evident.

Leaving an ideology is a lot like leaving a religion, but I suspect that you already know that. It's not lightly done, especially when you are struggling to formulate an alternative.

Brave and admirable.

 

[DeeZire]

Sev - after reading your policy statement, I can see why you and I accidentally agree now and then. We have some common goals, it's just the terminology that's different.

The coming months will be interesting for libertarians, watching services getting cut at every level of government because of the crapped out economy. I just read in the local paper that the graffiti cleanup crew is getting the ax - a nonessential service yes, but a service that affects people where they live. Eventually, volunteers will spend hours out in the sun cleaning graffiti while the majority will sit on their asses doing nothing to help. In other words, the majority will be getting a free ride because a service they used to pay for is now being done for free and they won't have to lift a finger. Reverse logic, yes, but it's still logic - justification for a system that spreads the burden of services throughout the population equally.

Looking at the bigger picture, police officers are going to be cut, or not hired to keep up with population growth, teachers are going to be laid off or not rehired, the list goes on - all services we take for granted, services that enrich our environment and give us a higher quality of life.

Perhaps this will be our opportunity to find out if libertarian ideals really work, now that we're being forced into trying them out.

Now, is there a way to tie this all in to Sarah Palin, since, I think that's the thread we're in? Oh, I know. SP is the marxist around here, because she's the one who requisitioned a portion of the oil money from the rich guys and gave it equally to everyone else in the state. Take about spreading the wealth around...

 

[Kev H]

This is a very interesting article for several reasons (this is related to my earlier post about the Republican power struggle and shake-out that's about to happen):

The Perils of 'Populist Chic'

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122610558004810243.html

"Back in the '70s, conservative intellectuals loved to talk about 'radical chic,' the well-known tendency of educated, often wealthy liberals to project their political fantasies onto brutal revolutionaries and street thugs, and romanticize their 'struggles.' But 'populist chic' is just the inversion of 'radical chic,' and is no less absurd, comical or ominous."

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I just read in the local paper that the graffiti cleanup crew is getting the ax - a nonessential service yes, but a service that affects people where they live. Eventually, volunteers will spend hours out in the sun cleaning graffiti while the majority will sit on their asses doing nothing to help.

Or, perhaps, this is the sort of "service" Obama was considering with his "$4000 for every college student willing to do community service" idea?

Now, is there a way to tie this all in to Sarah Palin, since, I think that's the thread we're in? Oh, I know. SP is the marxist around here, because she's the one who requisitioned a portion of the oil money from the rich guys and gave it equally to everyone else in the state. Take about spreading the wealth around...

Nice tie-in.

 

[DeeZire]

Or, perhaps, this is the sort of "service" Obama was considering with his "$4000 for every college student willing to do community service" idea?

One would think graffiti clean up could also be done in exchange for food stamp eligibility, or by prisoners on work release. There is so much to be done in this country, and a work force with nothing to do. Why not make the unemployed work for their benefits? (I hope I don't lose my liberal credentials by saying this.)

 

[rgraham666]

And while they're doing that they're going to be looking for a job, how?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

And while they're doing that they're going to be looking for a job, how?

Oh come on... Rob, seriously, committing to a few hours a week (say, 5-10?) doing community service is NOT going to cut into job-search time. They say you SHOULD spend as much time LOOKING for a job as you would actually DOING a job... who really does, though? Not many, I bet.

 

[DeeZire]

And while they're doing that they're going to be looking for a job, how?

When I was on unemployment, back in the 70s, I believe the requirement was two contacts per week with prospective employers. These days, with the unemployment rate going up, a person could look for a job 24/7 and not find one.

My thought was to address the chronically unemployed - you know, the ones the conservatives are always railing against. There are always going to be freeloaders in society. The trick is to make it harder for them to freeload. Of course, this has nothing to do with the disabled, it's just an idea to give able-bodied people something constructive to do, something that would benefit society rather than detract from it.

 

[rgraham666]

Okay, let's look at the idea.

Five to ten hours a week doesn't sound like much, until you realize that the job hunt is pretty much limited to the forty hour work week. Which means that a person forced to work, and I use that term just the way it sounds, now loses 12 to 25 per cent of their time available to look for work.

Next comes the transport requirements. I sincerely doubt that the jobs they are assigned to will be within walking distance. When they changed welfare here in Ontario to "Ontario Works" and demanded people 'work for welfare' it wasn't uncommon for a person to be assigned a job that required a major commute in a car, which few welfare recipients own. On public transit a few hours a day became an all day thing. Plus the cost of the commute has to be factored in. Every trip there and back costs $5 in Toronto. If the work a person is assigned is spread over several days that adds up. When your money for the month is just a little over $500, sixty bucks is a big chunk of change.

And I can tell you from living with some of them, new rules won't stop the freeloaders. They'll just adapt to the new rules.

And quite seriously, if the jobs the 'freeloaders' are assigned are important enough to be done, why not pay them a proper wage? If the jobs are just make work to 'get them off their lazy asses' why are we wasting our time on something unimportant?

 

[sr71plt]

Okay, let's look at the idea.

Five to ten hours a week doesn't sound like much, until you realize that the job hunt is pretty much limited to the forty hour work week.

Hmmm. Never heard of the Internet and e-mailing, I take it?