Science vs Religion

[Stella_Omega]

Excellent point. To this I'd add the research carried out on Jews during the Holocaust, not to mention animal vivisection.

And all those rabbits that Clairol blinded to make sure stuff was safe for humans-- needlessly by that time, because those chemicals had already been proven. Although I would call that commercialism, not science-- they were re-proving so they could make money, not because there were questions to be answered.


And let's not forget Harry Harlow and his psychotic monkeys raised on wire mothers, that was pretty brutal.

 

[teknight]

The most amusing thing about this, among many amusing things, is that I'm not even a person of faith.

Yup. You're preaching their propaganda...'cause you grew up around these parts? Christianity's so ingrained into the fabric of things that it must be true.

And, you're still not citing facts. Regardless of how absurd my counterarguments might have been- you've yet to prove anything about the value of religion. You just want it to be good, therefore it must be good. I'd say that's pretty damn intolerant, if only 'cause you're annoying and I like pushing your buttons.

 

[teknight]

Marx thought that religion was a way to oppress the working classes (duh).

I think your second point is one that is interesting to me. Especially as you say "some have seen". You're an American, I presume, so you're used to Christianity having some major right wing attachments. That to me, as a European, is very odd. I've seen some of the American televangelist speeches. It's amazing how easy it is to twist the same book into justifying what ever you want it to justify. Want more money? Well of course Jesus wants you to have more money as well!

If I didn't have any morals, I'd go the Ron L. Hubbard way and create a new religion. Perhaps I'd be a bit lazy and just start a new Christian denomination. Though some good marketing would be needed as there's plenty of competition (there are around 40000 Christian denominations). Just have to take note from some of the media whores out there and burn some Korans or picket the funeral of the week.

a) Ich bin Rumäne. That's in German, and translate.google.com can help you out, should you not speak German, fellow european.

40,000? Wow. I'm behind the times.

 

[teknight]

I hope that what we are doing, however, is moving to a common ground. If those who are simply agnostic (i.e. without my "spiritual" label) or atheists have analyzed the issue and agree tolerance and acceptance gets us further than fighting, they are on a common ground with others. If those who are spiritual or religious realize that turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbor means tolerance and acceptance, they are on common ground with others. It seems to me that the important part is how to get to a place where we come together. It's not as important which road you take to get there. You may prefer the interstate and I the city streets. But hopefully we can all end up somewhere better than where we started.

But can you tolerate my need for reason, proof and thought? And my use of hifalutin language?

 

[vrosej10]

yes, and those experiments were condemned by the general scientic community as soon as they were made public. The thing is, those experiments were always an affront to morality-- whereas the atrocities that religions commit are excused as the will of whatever god the religion worships. I am all in favor of tolerance and acceptance. Always have been. And I practice what I preach.

• I have never once tried to pass a law to prevent Christians from marrying each other, or kicked my child out of my house for believing in God.
  
• I have never invited a believer to my home for a spot of dinner and atheistic proselyting.
  
• I've never followed a woman with two children in hand, telling her that she's going to hell because she won't let me, a total random fucking stranger on the street, tell her all about the word of god.
  
• I've never knocked a woman away from my child-- who was about to take a header down the stairs-- a half-hour after learning she was a Christian-- lest she infect my kid with evil Christian cooties.
  
• I've never appeared at the doors of my neighbors to tell them not to read the Bible.
  
• I've never engineered a "spontaneous" atheist (or Muslim) prayer at a highschool football game after Christian minority students pointed out that they felt threatened by the administration's sanctioned atheist (or Muslim) prayers. I've never pointed out that those very few Christian students never spoke up about it before so why do they have the nerve to complain now?
  
• I've never swerved my car to drive one of those pairs of Mormon bikeriders off the street, and believe me the impulse has been strong at times.

I'm ALL about tolerant.

Amen to this. I am neopagan and the amount of shit I have gotten about this is huge. I don't proselytise (its considered very rude in my religion) and I so wished these other groups would figure that out too.

 

[Chiara_searches]

But can you tolerate my need for reason, proof and thought? And my use of hifalutin language?

I most definitely can tolerate it. I encourage young people in my life to ask hard questions. I'm glad we find them on the boards. I even have a fondness for hifalutin language. It was the application of your methodology, I think, to which I objected.

But I don't have enough knowledge on either side of the debate to have any good answers for anyone but myself.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I most definitely can tolerate it. I encourage young people in my life to ask hard questions. I'm glad we find them on the boards. I even have a fondness for hifalutin language. It was the application of your methodology, I think, to which I objected.

But I don't have enough knowledge on either side of the debate to have any good answers for anyone but myself.

I know I'm about to be obnoxious, Chiara, but I really want you to read my answer to your comment about becoming more tolerant on both sides-- as quoted by Vrosej just above.


The problem with religion is that it is not tolerant, because tolerance for other religions means that each one has to share territory. And the problem with Christianity -- especially as it's practiced in the USA-- is that a fundamental part of the faith is that Christians must save the entire human race by bringing them to a belief in the Christian god. By enforcing Christian morality, lest the sinners die and go to hell. What non-Christians believe is of no concern to Christianity.

It is every bit as intolerant a religion as islam is. Everything about tolerance in our society has happened because Christianity is not the primary power.

 

[DVS]

I know I'm about to be obnoxious, Chiara, but I really want you to read my answer to your comment about becoming more tolerant on both sides-- as quoted by Vrosej just above.


The problem with religion is that it is not tolerant, because tolerance for other religions means that each one has to share territory. And the problem with Christianity -- especially as it's practiced in the USA-- is that a fundamental part of the faith is that Christians must save the entire human race by bringing them to a belief in the Christian god. By enforcing Christian morality, lest the sinners die and go to hell. What non-Christians believe is of no concern to Christianity.

It is every bit as intolerant a religion as islam is. Everything about tolerance in our society has happened because Christianity is not the primary power.

While I agree that religious people sometimes seem pushy, there are those who want nothing but for others to experience the same joy that they do. They seriously can't imagine anybody wouldn't want to feel the way they do about their God. And I guess you can't blame those people for only wanting the best for everybody.

There are those who will explain their views and let you decide for yourself. I'm one of those...well, kind of. I don't even offer my views, if I'm not asked. I consider everybody to have a brain that works and if they don't want my opinion, I don't want to force it on them. I've been there, myself.

And there are others who seem to assume they know better, or even feel superior to those who don't feel the same way as they do. I've had people try to force their beliefs to me. They can be persistent, as if they don't think I understand. Because if I did understand, I'd surely be on my knees thanking them for enlightening me. Those people can be a little annoying, for sure.

Some people just believe so deeply, that they can't understand how someone could believe something else. And when they feel a certain way for years and years, when someone doesn't believe what they do, it can bother them, almost to the point of insult. "Someone doesn't believe what I do? It's like they are saying all of the years I've devoted to my beliefs were wasted."

I think this could also explain how anybody believes in something deeply. It doesn't have to be religion. It could be American football. I'm sure a few in foreign countries think American football is a boring sport, but if you were to go into an American sports bar with that kind of attitude, I think you'd find a few devoted fans to dispute...what is it again...soccer? Oh, that's right, you call it football, too.

 

[midwestyankee]

While I agree that religious people sometimes seem pushy, there are those who want nothing but for others to experience the same joy that they do. They seriously can't imagine anybody wouldn't want to feel the way they do about their God. And I guess you can't blame those people for only wanting the best for everybody.

There are those who will explain their views and let you decide for yourself. I'm one of those...well, kind of. I don't even offer my views, if I'm not asked. I consider everybody to have a brain that works and if they don't want my opinion, I don't want to force it on them. I've been there, myself.

And there are others who seem to assume they know better, or even feel superior to those who don't feel the same way as they do. I've had people try to force their beliefs to me. They can be persistent, as if they don't think I understand. Because if I did understand, I'd surely be on my knees thanking them for enlightening me. Those people can be a little annoying, for sure.

Some people just believe so deeply, that they can't understand how someone could believe something else. And when they feel a certain way for years and years, when someone doesn't believe what they do, it can bother them, almost to the point of insult. "Someone doesn't believe what I do? It's like they are saying all of the years I've devoted to my beliefs were wasted."

I think this could also explain how anybody believes in something deeply. It doesn't have to be religion. It could be American football. I'm sure a few in foreign countries think American football is a boring sport, but if you were to go into an American sports bar with that kind of attitude, I think you'd find a few devoted fans to dispute...what is it again...soccer? Oh, that's right, you call it football, too.

DVS, this is a fine explanation of why some Christians behave the way that they do.

But it is no excuse for their behavior.

It also does not bear on the question at hand, which appears to be whether science or religion offers the better answer to life's unknowns.

I contend that the greatest problem with religion is that it is intolerant of questions. This intolerance breeds a similar attitude in its practitioners, only they exercise it against their fellow man.

 

[Stella_Omega]

DVS, nobody needs the explanation. We all know all of that.

What I want to know is how do we get them and their good intentions off our backs so the rest of us can live our own lives? This is a purely practical question, no theory, and it's pretty damn important.

I don't give a flying fuck if some Xtian feels insulted because I have a different POV, that's no reason for them to insult me by telling me I'm going to hell-- which is non-existent to me anyway. And they wouldn't even KNOW that I'm an atheist if they hadn't asked me in the first place-- usually the first step in an evangelical effort.

I am not stopping them from going to church, or marrying a member of the opposite sex like they believe is the right thing to do-- but they constantly try to dictate my worship choices or marriage choices. They are welcome to their afterlife, as long as they don't make afterlife an excuse for neglecting this globe and the life that's on it.

 

[Chiara_searches]

I know I'm about to be obnoxious, Chiara, but I really want you to read my answer to your comment about becoming more tolerant on both sides-- as quoted by Vrosej just above.


The problem with religion is that it is not tolerant, because tolerance for other religions means that each one has to share territory. And the problem with Christianity -- especially as it's practiced in the USA-- is that a fundamental part of the faith is that Christians must save the entire human race by bringing them to a belief in the Christian god. By enforcing Christian morality, lest the sinners die and go to hell. What non-Christians believe is of no concern to Christianity.

It is every bit as intolerant a religion as islam is. Everything about tolerance in our society has happened because Christianity is not the primary power.

I did read your comment, more than once actually. I re-read it yet again when I read Vrosej's comments. The reason why I didn't feel the need to respond to your list of intolerances is because it is in line with my belief system. I could have responded with "like" and shown my support. I didn't have anything much more intelligent to add to it because you clearly defined specific instances why religion is so very wrong, especially Christianity as it has been warped by some in this country.

I do not subscribe to any one religion mostly because of the intolerance aspect espoused by many of those same religions. I dislike people putting their beliefs in your face, which was actually part of the point I was trying to make in this post. The churches to which I have been exposed are full of hypocrisy of the very kind you list, which is another point I touched very briefly on before. I think it is atrocious what churches attempt to do to gays, lesbians and trans-gendered people, which is a point I also agreed with in this post.

The bold point you make above is actually why I suggested that words from the Bahá'í Faith could teach us something. To repeat: I especially believe as they do: that there should be "condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, class or national." To this I would also add condemnation of prejudice against others' sexual practices (i.e. BDSM, etc.) or sexual orientations (i.e. GLBT). The Bahá'í Faith, in my limited understanding of it, seek to "share the territory" because they believe in "the spiritual unity of all humankind" regardless of the label placed upon one's belief systems. See also Universal Sufism.

[EDITED TO REMOVE TMI], I left my father's house because I was given the choice to repent and return to his church or carry on on my own. I have not dealt with the intolerances to the extent society and churches have heaped on you, as I read your list to be coming from personal experiences; but I have dealt with intolerance and my reactions thereto form part of my belief system. Love they neighbor and turn the other cheek are NOT actually practiced by those shouting it from the pulpits, regardless of which holy book they are using.

So you and I are on the same exact page that Christianity is intolerant and disrespectful, if I am understanding your points. But we still may be having trouble understanding each other and I welcome your thoughts if you feel that way.

Somewhere things got off track, perhaps my reacting out of anger. I was basically offended that Tek called Jamie a name and misquoted Jamie. I was amused that Tek misunderstood Jamie's POV to such an extent because I knew Jamie was not religious and is more agnostic than I.

I agree the bible was a compilation of mores and oral histories from long before, as you pointed out before. But I also agree that the religious undertones do exist in many of the western countries and laws. I do not think that makes it right; I just think that is how it is much like the sky simply is blue. If you think that is completely wrong (i.e. Christianity having some impact on laws), why does it matter if we disagree on that particular point? We agree on what I feel are the more important ones, including: that intolerance has no place in a civilized world. I try to equally call out religious friends who are being intolerant as I call out my atheist friends for intolerance. I even call out myself when I'm being intolerant.

 

[Chiara_searches]

DVS, nobody needs the explanation. We all know all of that.

What I want to know is how do we get them and their good intentions off our backs so the rest of us can live our own lives? This is a purely practical question, no theory, and it's pretty damn important.

I don't give a flying fuck if some Xtian feels insulted because I have a different POV, that's no reason for them to insult me by telling me I'm going to hell-- which is non-existent to me anyway. And they wouldn't even KNOW that I'm an atheist if they hadn't asked me in the first place-- usually the first step in an evangelical effort.

I am not stopping them from going to church, or marrying a member of the opposite sex like they believe is the right thing to do-- but they constantly try to dictate my worship choices or marriage choices. They are welcome to their afterlife, as long as they don't make afterlife an excuse for neglecting this globe and the life that's on it.

I've never been able to figure out how to get them off anyone's backs. It's why I try to find a common ground we can all share. Maybe at 42 I'm still living with pie in the sky dreams; but if you don't have a dream to strive for, then you stagnate.

A couple of times when I have been preached at randomly on the street, I've tried to react like I expect myself to do to a flasher (I've never been flashed). I start laughing at the person and walk away. It's cruel in one regard, so I haven't done it for a few years as I'm trying not to be cruel. But it was fun in the moment to laugh at someone that has skewed words to their own liking while ignoring other words.

But Stella, if hell does not exist for you, why is it an insult to be told to go to hell. Sure, they mean it as an insult. But you control your response to their words. If their words are valueless, have no meaning to you, why not let them be ignorant and don't take their bait?

It's kind of like when I'm told to fuck off. If necessary, I will explain why the person is completely wrong about something, but I try not to get into "yeah, well you fuck off" mode. I'd rather let them flay about looking stupid all on their own.

Again, I absolutely get that what you have lived through is vastly different than what I have dealt with. So absolutely no offense is meant here; just trying to suggest a different mode of handling it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks-- I just wanted to know that my words weren't being ignored. I put it out there like this which takes some.. yanno, guts. And I want to know-- more importantly, I want Christians to know -- that other people have had similar experiences.

I want it to stop. I don't want to hear excuses, or "reasons." I want to hear Christians apologize for their religion, and then-- I want to hear reparations being made. Fast, before some of us die of old age.

I know I won't get what I want. I know that I will die without seeing more than bare token progress being made towards true tolerance.

And in the meantime, there's always someone saying that atheists complain too much.

 

[Chiara_searches]

Thanks-- I just wanted to know that my words weren't being ignored. I put it out there like this which takes some.. yanno, guts. And I want to know-- more importantly, I want Christians to know -- that other people have had similar experiences.

I want it to stop. I don't want to hear excuses, or "reasons." I want to hear Christians apologize for their religion, and then-- I want to hear reparations being made. Fast, before some of us die of old age.

I know I won't get what I want. I know that I will die without seeing more than bare token progress being made towards true tolerance.

And in the meantime, there's always someone saying that atheists complain too much.

And you are right; my silence was wrong. I thought it brave of you to share and I should have said at least that, if nothing more. Your bravery was why I read the list more than once. For my silence I do apologize. It made me upset that you had to experience all that. I was not the perpetrator but I will at least say "I am sorry you suffered such ignorant fools in your life."

 

[ControlandDom]

Thanks-- I just wanted to know that my words weren't being ignored. I put it out there like this which takes some.. yanno, guts. And I want to know-- more importantly, I want Christians to know -- that other people have had similar experiences.

I want it to stop. I don't want to hear excuses, or "reasons." I want to hear Christians apologize for their religion, and then-- I want to hear reparations being made. Fast, before some of us die of old age.

I know I won't get what I want. I know that I will die without seeing more than bare token progress being made towards true tolerance.

And in the meantime, there's always someone saying that atheists complain too much.

LOL

Climb down off your cross.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've never been able to figure out how to get them off anyone's backs. It's why I try to find a common ground we can all share. Maybe at 42 I'm still living with pie in the sky dreams; but if you don't have a dream to strive for, then you stagnate.

A couple of times when I have been preached at randomly on the street, I've tried to react like I expect myself to do to a flasher (I've never been flashed). I start laughing at the person and walk away. It's cruel in one regard, so I haven't done it for a few years as I'm trying not to be cruel. But it was fun in the moment to laugh at someone that has skewed words to their own liking while ignoring other words.

But Stella, if hell does not exist for you, why is it an insult to be told to go to hell. Sure, they mean it as an insult. But you control your response to their words. If their words are valueless, have no meaning to you, why not let them be ignorant and don't take their bait?

Let's talk about the word "insult." It does not only mean "a bad word." It also means practical physical things such I have already mentioned. Telling someone they can't marry their loved one, and then-- on top of that-- telling them that they should understand, and it's nothing malicious they just don't want you to commit a sin and go to hell?

Oh, please. HOW, please tell me, do you deal with that? What part of "not taking the bait" means you stop that fight, and simply live without the marriage?

It's kind of like when I'm told to fuck off. If necessary, I will explain why the person is completely wrong about something, but I try not to get into "yeah, well you fuck off" mode. I'd rather let them flay about looking stupid all on their own.

Again, I absolutely get that what you have lived through is vastly different than what I have dealt with. So absolutely no offense is meant here; just trying to suggest a different mode of handling it.

I made some statements about things that have happened. I didn't say how I reacted to them. It's actually a bit scary to have two small children in hand and be followed by a wild-eyed self-righteous asshole. And it isn't that people have told me to go to hell, they simply announce that I will-- and never acknowledge my right to live my life as I wish.
Wrapped in that comfy blanket of WWJD.

And I will say that the woman who didn't want my satanic atheist hands touching her child-- her minister lit into her about it. But she wasn't thinking at the time, she was reacting in the way she'd been indoctrinated all her life.

I've been a teaching moment for a few Christians. I never asked for that privilege. I want other Christians to take up that mantle and duty.

Clean your own house, people!

 

[teknight]

I most definitely can tolerate it. I encourage young people in my life to ask hard questions. I'm glad we find them on the boards. I even have a fondness for hifalutin language. It was the application of your methodology, I think, to which I objected.

But I don't have enough knowledge on either side of the debate to have any good answers for anyone but myself.

I encourage all people to ask questions. Old age, in and of itself offers no answers, nor does experience alone offer right answers.

 

[DVS]

Christians are no different than anybody else. Everybody's human and so we all have our faults. Just like you don't seem to understand why they are like they are, they don't understand why you are like you are. It's a big street. You're not perfect, and neither are they.

Just because someone says they are a Christian, that shouldn't trigger someone's "religious zealot" flag to spring up. The majority of Christians don't try to force their beliefs on other people. Sure, some do, but they tend to be the vocal minority. The majority of Christians just live their lives and let other people live theirs. But anybody is going to fight for their beliefs if they feel challenged. Just for the record, I believe in God, and I don't care if members of the same sex want to get married and it's called marriage.

DVS, this is a fine explanation of why some Christians behave the way that they do.

But it is no excuse for their behavior.

It also does not bear on the question at hand, which appears to be whether science or religion offers the better answer to life's unknowns.

I contend that the greatest problem with religion is that it is intolerant of questions. This intolerance breeds a similar attitude in its practitioners, only they exercise it against their fellow man.

I would assume that those in science are also intolerant of someone questioning their POV, because of their educations and they have done a lot of research on the subject. Which offers the better answer to life's unknowns? I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that. It's just another of those topics that produces endless discussion without result.

DVS, nobody needs the explanation. We all know all of that.

What I want to know is how do we get them and their good intentions off our backs so the rest of us can live our own lives? This is a purely practical question, no theory, and it's pretty damn important.

I don't give a flying fuck if some Xtian feels insulted because I have a different POV, that's no reason for them to insult me by telling me I'm going to hell-- which is non-existent to me anyway. And they wouldn't even KNOW that I'm an atheist if they hadn't asked me in the first place-- usually the first step in an evangelical effort.

I am not stopping them from going to church, or marrying a member of the opposite sex like they believe is the right thing to do-- but they constantly try to dictate my worship choices or marriage choices. They are welcome to their afterlife, as long as they don't make afterlife an excuse for neglecting this globe and the life that's on it.

I don't know where you're going that you are accosted by religious fanatics shoving religion down your throat. I wouldn't like it either. But if there was a place where I met up with these people, I'd spend as little time there as possible. That type of person is just waiting to shove the Bible into somebody's face. We called them Jesus freaks back in the 70s.

You need a thicker skin with those people. They are trying to make you mad and they're succeeding. And why do you care if they say you're going to hell, if you don't even think hell exists? Laugh at them. To use a corny phrase, don't let them see you sweat.

and like I said above, this isn't a topic where one side will ever concede to the other. You just have to agree to disagree. If asked, tell them to mind their own business or just walk away.

 

[Stella_Omega]

DVS... Dude. I dunno what filter you're reading by, but...

Dude. That was a post just chock-full of really stupid responses.

Really... really stupid. Mind boggling, even.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't know where you're going that you are accosted by religious fanatics shoving religion down your throat.

Try everywhere.

 

[midwestyankee]

I would assume that those in science are also intolerant of someone questioning their POV, because of their educations and they have done a lot of research on the subject. Which offers the better answer to life's unknowns? I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that. It's just another of those topics that produces endless discussion without result.

You assume wrong. Questioning prior results is the very essence of science.

 

[DVS]

Try everywhere.

I'm sorry, but that's got to be an exaggeration. If it were true, it would be impossible for anyone NOT to see it. Like I said, I wouldn't like it, either. If it were everywhere, it would be similar to the Phelps family on every street corner.

 

[DVS]

DVS... Dude. I dunno what filter you're reading by, but...

Dude. That was a post just chock-full of really stupid responses.

Really... really stupid. Mind boggling, even.

See what I mean? You're right and I'm wrong...er stupid. You have a difficult time understanding people who don't see things the same as you do. The world is not full of religious meanies out to get all nonbelievers. So, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Thanks everyone, for the inspiring discussion, but we've come to a stalemate and I need to get some sleep before I go to work, tonight, so gotta go.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm sorry, but that's got to be an exaggeration. If it were true, it would be impossible for anyone NOT to see it. Like I said, I wouldn't like it, either. If it were everywhere, it would be similar to the Phelps family on every street corner.

I've never lived anywhere where I didn't meet someone who thought I was going to hell. I'm used to it.

 

[JMohegan]

C
I would assume that those in science are also intolerant of someone questioning their POV, because of their educations and they have done a lot of research on the subject. Which offers the better answer to life's unknowns? I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that.

How is that even a question?

Let's say it's the first half of the 20th century. Hundreds of thousands of people, all over the world, are being crippled and killed by the polio virus.

What should we do? Should we...

Sacrifice virgins?

Light candles?

Put more money in the collection plate at church?

Pray earnestly, as often as possible, asking the Great Figment of Hopeful Imagining in the sky for help?

Or..... (hey, here's a thought!)....

Some Russian Jewish immigrant dude could bust his ass in the science lab, and develop a vaccine.