Science vs Religion

[Stella_Omega]

See what I mean? You're right and I'm wrong...er stupid. You have a difficult time understanding people who don't see things the same as you do. The world is not full of religious meanies out to get all nonbelievers. So, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Thanks everyone, for the inspiring discussion, but we've come to a stalemate and I need to get some sleep before I go to work, tonight, so gotta go.

Nope-- what's mind-bogglingly stupid is the way you've completely ignored the meat of what I have said in favor of, as so many do, bullshit explanations-- durrr.... and excuses, durrr... and expecting ME to be the saint when I don't fucking ascribe to sainthood at all.

I "need a thicker skin," huh.
Fuck you very much, no.
More people like you need a thinner skin and more awareness of what happens in the world.

I have NO PROBLEM with people who don't "see things the way I do." I have FUCKTON OF PROBLEM with people who PASS LAWS to FORCE me to "See things the way THEY do." And I have a metric buttload of problem with people like YOU who give me bullshit advice and tell me they don't believe -- not my beliefs but my actual experiences.

I want you guys to STOP. I want some apologies. I want some changes.

I'm sorry, but that's got to be an exaggeration. If it were true, it would be impossible for anyone NOT to see it. Like I said, I wouldn't like it, either. If it were everywhere, it would be similar to the Phelps family on every street corner.

And it IS. You don't see it because you don't see it-- you're a fish swimming in the water of religion.

 

[Stella_Omega]

How is that even a question?

Let's say it's the first half of the 20th century. Hundreds of thousands of people, all over the world, are being crippled and killed by the polio virus.

What should we do? Should we...

Sacrifice virgins?

Light candles?

Put more money in the collection plate at church?

Pray earnestly, as often as possible, asking the Great Figment of Hopeful Imagining in the sky for help?

Or..... (hey, here's a thought!)....

Some Russian Jewish immigrant dude could bust his ass in the science lab, and develop a vaccine.

That's not the "life's unknowns" believers worry about, you aren't playing fair.

 

[JMohegan]

That's not the "life's unknowns" believers worry about, you aren't playing fair.

The practical unknowns are the only ones I see value in contemplating, though I see nothing inherently wrong with pondering the unanswerable, per se.

If the "believers" kept their imaginings in the realm of the ethereal, I wouldn't care. It's the tendency to confuse fantasy and reality that causes trouble, as I've already said.

 

[teknight]

I'm sorry, but that's got to be an exaggeration. If it were true, it would be impossible for anyone NOT to see it. Like I said, I wouldn't like it, either. If it were everywhere, it would be similar to the Phelps family on every street corner.

No, it's not. It's not constantly everywhere, but I've seen them come to my house, put stupid ads up around town (see below), spew hate on my campus, 'cause we have a "free speech zone", as well as randomly in Romania. So, they are everywhere. Hell, one such imbecile accused atheists of being immoral on CNN during a discussion with the head of some atheist organization.


http://extraordinaryintelligence.com/files/2011/03/family-radion-may-21-billboard.jpg

How is that even a question?

Let's say it's the first half of the 20th century. Hundreds of thousands of people, all over the world, are being crippled and killed by the polio virus.

What should we do? Should we...

Sacrifice virgins?

Light candles?

Put more money in the collection plate at church?

Pray earnestly, as often as possible, asking the Great Figment of Hopeful Imagining in the sky for help?

Or..... (hey, here's a thought!)....

Some Russian Jewish immigrant dude could bust his ass in the science lab, and develop a vaccine.

Damn Ruskies! Oh, wait. Wrong topic.

 

[JMohegan]

Hey, teknight -

thanks.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The practical unknowns are the only ones I see value in contemplating, though I see nothing inherently wrong with pondering the unanswerable, per se.

If the "believers" kept their imaginings in the realm of the ethereal, I wouldn't care. It's the tendency to confuse fantasy and reality that causes trouble, as I've already said.

And as I have, as well-- and that's what DVS has refused to address.

Which I find less than admirable, frankly.

 

[JMohegan]

Damn Ruskies! Oh, wait. Wrong topic.

Not Ruskie, American. 100%.

We're the melting pot. It's our greatest strength.

 

[Netzach]

Christians are no different than anybody else. Everybody's human and so we all have our faults. Just like you don't seem to understand why they are like they are, they don't understand why you are like you are. It's a big street. You're not perfect, and neither are they.

Just because someone says they are a Christian, that shouldn't trigger someone's "religious zealot" flag to spring up. The majority of Christians don't try to force their beliefs on other people. Sure, some do, but they tend to be the vocal minority. The majority of Christians just live their lives and let other people live theirs. But anybody is going to fight for their beliefs if they feel challenged. Just for the record, I believe in God, and I don't care if members of the same sex want to get married and it's called marriage.
I would assume that those in science are also intolerant of someone questioning their POV, because of their educations and they have done a lot of research on the subject. Which offers the better answer to life's unknowns? I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that. It's just another of those topics that produces endless discussion without result.
I don't know where you're going that you are accosted by religious fanatics shoving religion down your throat. I wouldn't like it either. But if there was a place where I met up with these people, I'd spend as little time there as possible. That type of person is just waiting to shove the Bible into somebody's face. We called them Jesus freaks back in the 70s.

You need a thicker skin with those people. They are trying to make you mad and they're succeeding. And why do you care if they say you're going to hell, if you don't even think hell exists? Laugh at them. To use a corny phrase, don't let them see you sweat.

and like I said above, this isn't a topic where one side will ever concede to the other. You just have to agree to disagree. If asked, tell them to mind their own business or just walk away.

You don't have to be areligious to experience this, you just have to fail to be Christian. Man does that piss Christians off.

There are 27 million Sikhs in the world, they don't evangelize. Maybe freak out periodically and reverse a pogrom or several enacted on them by near neighbors, but such is life in India, the oldest plurality. Jews evangelize? newp. Buddhists, yeah right.

There are religions which are structured as MLM schemes. Christianity is great at this. Islam is too, which is why it's the big scary Other. Jews and Muslims existed in relative sanity until the Christianized west decided to get involved after ww2 with the intent to destabilize old British Empire for the oil. Keep the bastards fighting. The idea of reconstructing European Jewry was just a great opportunity to look like you care about genocide, and still get your geopolitical hard on rubbed.

They've been stroking their boner since every time something blows up in Israel waiting for the Rapture.

Because you GET HEAVEN POINTS WHEN YOU CONVERT OTHERS. You get valuable afterlife goodies, and you might NOT get them if you don't bring your friends. Not motivating enough, how about eternal separation from everyone you love?

Imagine if your friends all go to hell, won't you miss them? Imagine if your own mother isn't saved.

This is my definition of psychic abuse. Ongoing psychic abuse of people's souls. And I find it particular to Christianity. I've shopped around for ideas and I don't see it to the same, ongoing, weekly extent. This message is woven in profoundly to a lot of different sects, some more than others - some so much that people exist on the verge of crying with terror and loss over everyone they know if you just scratch the surface - and I hate the people who do this to them and build giant megachurches and cheap megamansions on the fears of normal mortals inducted in their teens. Hate. Like I hate LRon. Well, shit there's a non Christian example of same - but it's clear where the model was from.

The irony is that there's a million reasons that technically, everyone I know should have been taken out back and stoned or cut off from the tribe, according to the books, but no one actually believes that. Even black hatters aren't literal enough for that. (though who knows where it will go as they get more radicalized) That's how religion can function in 2011.

These same people have the nerve to make fun of the promise of virgins in the afterlife for holy martyrdom?

This wasn't Jesus' intent. Spread the good news, yes, mostly by living it to yourself - terrify everyone, impose your religion on the land you live in (render unto - oh fuck it) and terrify yourself and annoy the shit out of everyone you meet, I'm pretty sure isn't in there. I've read that book and I'm pretty sure of it. Like a lot of rock stars, he has been worshipped by assholes since day one.

It's no accident that Amway is mega Christian - they got the road map from the belief system.

If I'm being offensive, cope. I do.

 

[teknight]

See what I mean? You're right and I'm wrong...er stupid. You have a difficult time understanding people who don't see things the same as you do. The world is not full of religious meanies out to get all nonbelievers. So, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Right. But the non meanies ignore the meanies, and minimize them, 'cause they don't care and can't see the damage idiots like that are doing for "the cause." Shit. You guys need better salesmen. I'd recommend hot chicks. They'll sell me anything.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hot chicks, huh?

Do we have to do a double blind for that, or can we jump right into the anecdotal evidence?

The world is not full of religious meanies out to get all nonbelievers.

yeah, actually, the world is full of religious meanies. And they are out to get whatever sinners they happen upon.

 

[teknight]

Hot chicks, huh?

Do we have to do a double blind for that, or can we jump right into the anecdotal evidence?
yeah, actually, the world is full of religious meanies. And they are out to get whatever sinners they happen upon.

Double blind? As in, both I and them wear blindfolds? That could be fun.
Since I said it'd work on me, it'd be purely anecdotal.

That's OK. I like happening to religious nuts.

Hey, kids, have you heard of Transpersonal Identity Disorder? It's fully relevant to this thread.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I dunno if anyone here has a messiah complex. Mostly, there are people who have "never-been-religiously-abused" privilege, and they don't want to believe it's so common.

There are people who can't believe that rape happens, or child abuse , or many other more or less unpleasant things. But as we know-- belief is not knowledge.

 

[teknight]

I dunno if anyone here has a messiah complex. Mostly, there are people who have "never-been-religiously-abused" privilege, and they don't want to believe it's so common.

There are people who can't believe that rape happens, or child abuse , or many other more or less unpleasant things. But as we know-- belief is not knowledge.

I'm not saying it applies to posters from the thread, Stella. If I came across that way, I'm sorry. There's only one idiot on lit who it might apply to, but, it's been keeping its lies in the PG as of late.

 

[ImOnIt]

I strongly feel that the word 'believe' applies best to personal views. Where a belief affects someone else, it becomes something different and I regard it differently hence. Are not beliefs the deepest, most private and most personal things? I would keep them from any but my closest.

 

[teknight]

I strongly feel that the word 'believe' applies best to personal views. Where a belief affects someone else, it becomes something different and I regard it differently hence. Are not beliefs the deepest, most private and most personal things? I would keep them from any but my closest.

Hey! Keep your beliefs to yourself, bud.

 

[ImOnIt]

Hey! Keep your beliefs to yourself, bud.

The statement starts with I therefore cannot be criticised.

I believe that leather wearing, wife whipping, pansy-ass scum of the earth males who terrorise their vulnerable exposed princesses into such shameful attire such as fetish wear thread and disgraceful activities as oral servitude should be made to register their perverted behaviour at the local office, and should be barred from reproduction or contact with children.

As we have permission to scour this site for personally identifying information, anyone with more than three posts in the BDSM Talk and BDSM Cafe section of this unmentionable site are signed up for twelve weeks compulsory reeducation pending psychiatric review. Furthermore, contraband images and novels are to be surrended to the Department of Clean Mind for incineration. Possession of a digital copy of any of these works is considered grounds for appropriate penance and imprisonment. There is no amnesty, effective immediately.

I believe the above statement is appropriate treatment for said perverse individuals. According to my belief system. Extra attention to be given to the one known as Teknight.

Edit: I'm not your bud, friend.

 

[teknight]

The statement starts with I therefore cannot be criticised.

I believe that leather wearing, wife whipping, pansy-ass scum of the earth males who terrorise their vulnerable exposed princesses into such shameful attire such as fetish wear thread and disgraceful activities as oral servitude should be made to register their perverted behaviour at the local office, and should be barred from reproduction or contact with children.

As we have permission to scour this site for personally identifying information, anyone with more than three posts in the BDSM Talk and BDSM Cafe section of this unmentionable site are signed up for twelve weeks compulsory reeducation pending psychiatric review. Furthermore, contraband images and novels are to be surrended to the Department of Clean Mind for incineration. Possession of a digital copy of any of these works is considered grounds for appropriate penance and imprisonment. There is no amnesty, effective immediately.

I believe the above statement is appropriate treatment for said perverse individuals. According to my belief system. Extra attention to be given to the one known as Teknight.

Edit: I'm not your bud, friend.

Bah. Psychiatry. Dianetics PROVED that wrong.
How about a good old fashion exorcism?

Extra attention, huh? You've got my attention.

 

[BunnyHopper]

If I may...

#1 This is my own personal claim, not a fact, as there is no way to actually prove this: I'm pretty damn sure most of Christians haven't actually read the Bible and most Muslims haven't actually read the Koran.

#2 I understand what it's like to defend your religion. Been there, done that and did it for all the wrong reasons. I was a Christian because I was born in a predominantly Christian country and happened to be raised Lutheran. I have rather strong feelings about morality and as religion was introduced to me as the source of morality, I was hooked. I attached all things that are good with the characters of Jesus and God and the Christian religion. So, anyone criticizing that religion wasn't necessarily a bad person, but just criticizing everything that was good. Ones you can compartmentalize things and understand that good things != Jesus != religion, things start to roll.

#3 If you worship a God that has all the powers to do good, yet decides to create a man who's most certainly fallible and then decides that that man has free will, yet if he doesn't do as he's told, he'll be *eternally* punished in hellfire, then you're a bad person. Period. That's the most immoral thing one could do and if you worship anyone who does that, then you're a coward and have no spine. Such a tyrant should not be worshiped. He should be questioned and stood up to and said "go fuck yourself".

#4 Obviously most people aren't like that and they believe in good. See point #2. They also think that Christianity or Islam isn't about ruthless tyranny at all. See point #1.

If it makes you feel safer and better to think that there are magical unicorns protecting us, then go for it. I do that often. I think we all need some magical unicorns in different points in our lives, because this is a pretty damn difficult place to be. If you feel that gays and lesbians are horrible, because they do things you don't want to do, then fine. Just own up to it and say that "I personally hate them, because they do things I wouldn't want to do (or would secretly want to do a lot, but am too afraid to)". Don't say "God says that it's bad". "Hate the sin, not the sinner". What utter bullshit.

Is this rant directed to any of you personally? No, not at all. Just had to say it.

Except I will direct this rant to DVS: "soccer" has feet and a ball involved in it. American "football" has an oval shaped object that one carries around in their hands for 2 seconds at a time in between Doritos ads.

 

[ImOnIt]

Bah. Psychiatry. Dianetics PROVED that wrong.
How about a good old fashion exorcism?

Extra attention, huh? You've got my attention.

My face when dianetics IS psychiatry. My sweet sweet S/O went to a scientology 'free reading' for fun... the questionaire they sent her back with was hilarious. Pretty much asked 'how easy are you to influence' in 100 out of 400 questions.

Do you feel comfort doing what everyone else is doing?
Do you feel shame?
If you have two or less children but could support more, why do you not support more?


PS touch this 'stress meter' it tells you how stressed you are based on current in your skin. This needle wiggling represents stress, now let me twiddle the gain between 10s, 100s and 1000s units until the needle wiggles.