Shame and humiliation in sex

[AchtungNight]

Mrs. Doubtfire successfully impersonates a woman. She’s a welcome drag queen. Those idiots who make it obvious they’re not actually women but men impersonating women and thus shame drag queens in my opinion? They’re what I mean by the “inferior” term. Hope we can drop this analogy soon. I’m only looking for attention, not shame. Ok?

 

[AlinaX]

I don't really know what you mean, but n/m. (Drag queens are under attack these days for no good reason.)

 

[AchtungNight]

Difference of opinion. I understand.

 

[Winter_Fare]

Hope we can drop this analogy soon. I’m only looking for attention, not shame. Ok?

You're not making a lot of sense to be honest

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Fascinating topic, which I can't address properly before breakfast.

S&H is a pile of negative emotions, yes. The fantasy in stories is having all that s&h, but someone loves you anyway/provides you with satisfaction of some sort.

To women who've been raised to be 'good girls' and warned off sex, the fantasy is both to be slutty as hell, 'made' to be (then it's not your fault), and to be appreciated for it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Gotcha, that makes sense. It's tough to comment on emotional responses when one so infrequently feels the emotions in question... and, I assume, you don't often see them in folk around you either, in an erotic context that is.

Correct. It's simply not on my radar, and has never been a part of any relationship I've been in. So I'm a "no" in terms of your AH dataset.

 

[Str4ng3rth4nf1ct1on]

This is a deeply complicated subject. Especially given that I have done or do fall into at least 3 of the categories you mention……but I’ll limit myself to one. Exhibitionism.
I’ve been in situations where my kink for exhibitionism has been brought up in conversation when it wasn’t expected ie at meals with people I barely knew and by someone who knew me well, but wasn’t actually trying to shame or humiliate me when it was said - if that makes sense? However, the sudden knowledge that everyone there knew my kink caused me to feel shame and some humiliation and that indeed did cause me to get aroused, albeit privately.
I think that shame and humiliation is very much personal and can sometimes cause sexual arousal even in a vanilla setting. It becomes much more intense when someone knows me well and purposely uses it to cause sexual arousal.

 

[Altissimus]

I think that shame and humiliation is very much personal and can sometimes cause sexual arousal even in a vanilla setting. It becomes much more intense when someone knows me well and purposely uses it to cause sexual arousal.

100% agree.

 

[AchtungNight]

Sorry for confusing and worrying people. I would hope the audience would expect that in a discussion about shame. I’ll keep doing what I can to address it. I hope people will be patient and understanding.

As I have mentioned, shame is generally not an erotic thing for me. I accept that it can be, but imho it’s more enjoyable when it’s put aside in adult context than when it’s brought forward and weaponized. Please let me know if I speak a word you do not understand.

 

[Str4ng3rth4nf1ct1on]

Sorry for confusing and worrying people. I would hope the audience would expect that in a discussion about shame. I’ll keep doing what I can to address it. I hope people will be patient and understanding.

As I have mentioned, shame is generally not an erotic thing for me. I accept that it can be, but imho it’s more enjoyable when it’s put aside in adult context than when it’s brought forward and weaponized. Please let me know if I speak a word you do not understand.

I might be wrong, but I thought we were discussing the subject in an adult (sexual) context.
Any confusion being aired is because you raised the subject of “inferior drag queens” and “Those idiots who make it obvious they’re not actually women but men impersonating women and thus shame drag queens in my opinion? They’re what I mean by the “inferior” term.”
Kinda sounds to the casual observer that you are weaponising it.

 

[Altissimus]

Correct. It's simply not on my radar, and has never been a part of any relationship I've been in. So I'm a "no" in terms of your AH dataset.

I do find this interesting. I cast a curious eye over some of your stories.

The exhibitionist one, where the girl is modelling nude and aroused by the eye contact of someone she previously knows.

Selected excerpts from another:

"I was now powerless to these women, and was their thing, their object."

"It was strange, for I would usually consider myself any woman's equal when it came to giving and receiving pleasure, but because I had elected to surrender myself and place my arms in her chains and my cock in her rope, that paradigm had shifted."

"Good. Your erection is mine now, and you will do as I will." And with a tug on my tied prick, she turned my cock tied, ball tied body around, until I faced the table. "Bend over, so your cheek is on the table."

Both her hands grasped my ass firm, and then there was a slap, hard on one cheek. And again. Slap, again, harder this time, both cheeks. My cock bounced, and Electra tugged on the cord. Behave.

I found this excerpt in particular quite interesting, from yet another story, in context of this thread:

"Red, don't mark me, please no. Red." I did not think I would need to use the safety word. The look in her eye shifts and changes, and she looks down at the bands across my thighs.

"OK, I'll stop. I need to release your balls soon, anyway."

Jesus, the tone in her voice? Fuck, that was a little beyond my zone. I didn't know where to look, and I didn't know what my face was showing.

I do wonder if this is a potato/po-tah-to perception. But then, we all see the world through the lenses we choose for ourselves, don't we?

 

[ElectricBlue]

I do find this interesting. I cast a curious eye over some of your stories.

The exhibitionist one, where the girl is modelling nude and aroused by the eye contact of someone she previously knows.

Selected excerpts from another:

I found this excerpt in particular quite interesting, from yet another story, in context of this thread:

I do wonder if this is a potato/po-tah-to perception. But then, we all see the world through the lenses we choose for ourselves, don't we?

Submission isn't the same as humiliation. Exhibitionism isn't the same as humiliation, either. They're quite different concepts, in my erotic lexicon. Sure, there's a power exchange, but where's the humiliation in my stories? It certainly wasn't in my mind when I wrote those stories - and I think I'd know my own kinks by now.

If you read all of A Love Song for Sara, you'll see that she's very confident in herself, which is why she's an artist's model. There's no humiliation there. She's running the show.

Similarly, In A Mistress and her Maid, there's dominance and submission, but not humiliation.

It seems to me that you want to put everything in terms of your own lens - you're finding readings that this author didn't write, that's for sure.

The other way of looking at it, I guess, is, do I read cuck and humiliation stories? Short answer, no.

 

[AchtungNight]

I might be wrong, but I thought we were discussing the subject in an adult (sexual) context.
Any confusion being aired is because you raised the subject of “inferior drag queens” and “Those idiots who make it obvious they’re not actually women but men impersonating women and thus shame drag queens in my opinion? They’re what I mean by the “inferior” term.”
Kinda sounds to the casual observer that you are weaponising it.

I was. People have shamed drag queens in my opinion recently, with undue cause in my view but not the offender’s view. That makes the issue relevant, in my opinion. I was clarifying that I do not find all drag queens shameful, Mrs. Doubtfire is one example of an acceptable one in my opinion. The stars of the film “To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, -Julie Newmar” are other good examples of quality drag queens. But the drag queens in certain media meant to shame such people… those are the drag queens I do not like. I hope you get what I am trying to say now. If you need further clarification, the media I’m referencing is popular in De Santis Land. That is in my opinion a place very big on shame and it should be avoided by all thinking beings. Further discussion of this matter can be addressed on the Politics Board or in private Conversations with me. I am dropping the issue now, if I am allowed to do so. Thank you.

Shame is a difficult thing to address with those who do not welcome or understand it, huh?

 

[Altissimus]

Submission isn't the same as humiliation. Exhibitionism isn't the same as humiliation, either.

Mmm, I'm not implying for a moment that they're the same. But I also firmly believe that they're not disassociated, either. I think there's a significant overlap in the venn diagram of 'submission' and 'humiliation', whatever the terms are that are used and irrespective of whether or not it's called out. I guess it depends partly on how deeply one wants to explore the underlying emotions. For the purposes of a story, one author might go very deep whereas another might not address emotions at all. Doesn't mean they're not there; doesn't mean that the reader doesn't perceive them, in conjunction to the scenario they're reading.

Anyway, it's all pretty subjective.

 

[Str4ng3rth4nf1ct1on]

I was. People have shamed drag queens in my opinion recently, with undue cause in my view but not the offender’s view. That makes the issue relevant, in my opinion. I was clarifying that I do not find all drag queens shameful, Mrs. Doubtfire is one example of an acceptable one in my opinion. The stars of the film “To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, -Julie Newmar” are other good examples of quality drag queens. But the drag queens in certain media meant to shame such people… those are the drag queens I do not like. I hope you get what I am trying to say now. If you need further clarification, the media I’m referencing is popular in De Santis Land. That is in my opinion a place very big on shame and it should be avoided by all thinking beings. Further discussion of this matter can be addressed on the Politics Board or in private Conversations with me. I am dropping the issue now, if I am allowed to do so. Thank you.

Shame is a difficult thing to address with those who do not welcome or understand it, huh?

Of course you’re allowed to drop the issue……..no further clarification is needed thanks

 

[BlueCollarGirl]

So shame is a kink for me, but it's one I'm extremely specific about. There's "good" shame and "bad" shame. Sounds crazy, right?

To women who've been raised to be 'good girls' and warned off sex, the fantasy is both to be slutty as hell, 'made' to be (then it's not your fault), and to be appreciated for it.

I'm gonna quote this, because this is the main factor in it for me. My childhood wasn't super religious, but sex was an extremely taboo subject in my home. It was never discussed. It was never implied. My parents were never affectionate towards each other where I could see it. So my younger mind interpreted sex/physical affection as a very bad thing, so bad no one will ever talk about it. And to be fair, as an adult who has learned about a lot of horrible things that happened to my parents in their formative years, I understand, but that early stigma was already an ingrained piece of who I became. I also attribute it to my love of bondage, dominance, and mind control, which I love both in stories that I've both written and read, and in real life. It's not my fault I was getting fucked and enjoying it - someone else made me!

Where shame plays in is much more along the lines of, "Oh, this is something I'm not supposed to do/like/want and here I am, getting off on it." Admittedly for me, in fiction it's always a bit more nefarious. I have zero interest in bad boys in the real world, but they're a great fantasy as someone who would enforce those things on my heroine, which helps me get what I want out of the story. In the real world, it's a bit more complicated, and where the "good" vs "bad" comes in. I don't accept shame from just anyone. Someone I don't know, or who is truly disrespectful, will get their nuts punched if they try to shame me about any part of my sexuality. Someone who cares about me, who respects me, maybe even someone who loves me, can call me every name they want to and poke fun at what a slut I am, I'm nothing but a toy, etc., because there's that relationship there that says, "we're indulging in each other's desires and it's not what I truly believe about you. In fact, I appreciate and even love this piece of who you are."

 

[AchtungNight]

I appreciate your post, Blue Collar Girl. When I shipped a religious celebrity with an atheist celebrity in my femslash fanfic Rekindled I used similar ideas to what you describe to get shame out of the equation. I believe it worked, hope readers agree. When I wrote Counseling, in which several religious characters must team up to thwart a shamer who’s a fanatic follower of one specific religion (let’s call this villain the devil), I also had similar thoughts in mind. It helped to put the villain’s celibate but empathetic twin sister (aka an archangel) on the good team.

 

[tantracuck]

I can certainly talk about the cuck and D/s side of all this.

First, never forget PornWorld and Real World are two different places, just like pop culture representation and internet fantasies aren't genuine reflections of individual kinks. Fifty Shades has a few points in its favor but isn't a reflection of "real" BDSM, and half the stuff in LW isn't a reflection of "real" cuckolding. Not throwing shade, just giving the boilerplate disclaimer fantasy isn't reality.

With that said, sex is in the mind and all. As pointed out already, kinks, taboos, fetishes, and alternate lifestyles are all manifestations, reflections, and reactions to the world outside the bedroom; the world around us and our lived experienced inform who we are, and what we like in bed, the dungeon, the park, whatever...is part of that.

When it comes to this particular topic, the formative event is the overwhelming majority of the time past trauma -- not necessarily personal or sexual trauma -- and the kink is the person's way of taking their power back. The person may not necessarily be conscious of that connection, or may even be in denial, and it can and in a lot of cases is deeply unhealthy, but it is what it is.

SPH came up in here, and I'm going to use that as a simple and clear-cut example to which everyone can relate, even if they don't even have a penis (humiliation kinks based on the size of other body parts also exist). Someone may not necessarily have had the stereotypical "boys' locker room experience" to manifest the kink. Society, mass media, social media, and porn have a consensus view "bigger is just better", combined with a truly whacked-out idea of what average size even is, and the quintessential Western viewpoint that anything less than "best" is not enough. That's all without going to certain ethnic baggage of which we're probably all aware, and all its associated problems.

Is it any wonder even average-sized penis-havers might get self-conscious? And, a portion of those are going to try taking their power back, by eroticizing their perception of having a small penis -- and that devalues them as romantic or sexual partners.

That goes for most kinks. Exhibition and public play are products of modesty and purity culture. Cuckolding is a product of monogamy culture and societal misogyny. Cuckqueaning is a product of purity culture and madonna-whore complex. Practically any kind of power exchange dynamic is rooted in and informed by traditional gender roles, whether it's eroticizing the norm or subverting the norm for erotic purpose.

That has its dark side too, and this is where I turn to cuckolding. Most men's stories of how they "got into it" boil down to "a past partner cheated on me". We're practically hard-wired for group sex: we get turned on seeing and hearing others in the act, hearing about it and living vicariously, we feel empathy and can project, sperm competition and multiple orgasms for women are things, and all. So, it's not difficult to see how the trauma of a partner violating (socially constructed) terms of a dynamic, violently conflicts with the lizard brain screaming "THAT'S FUCKING HOT", and a cuckolding kink or fetish comes out the other end of that struggle for reconciliation.

Except that's not the end of it, because we still live in a misogynist and toxically masculine society, that embraces purity culture for women and gendered double standards. A lot of men struggle with, or outright can't, reconcile it without falling back into those toxic norms. Hardly anyone in Western society is socialized to process trauma and emotions healthily, be introspect, perform healthy self-critique, and seek self-improvement; increasingly, we're socialized to project our issues outwards and try to recapture our power by knocking others down.

Which is why online cuckolding communities tend to be so toxic, why cuckolding discussions and groups online really need to be avoided, and why most cuckolding stories/fantasies are so messed up.

 

[Iwroteathing]

I don't post a lot on the forums but I had to swing by here as this is a topic close to my heart. All of my stories feature themes of humiliation, shame, and degradation and I figured it would at least be worth my while to elucidate on the artistic and erotic merits of such theming.

For me, a writer who chooses a theme of humiliation, is choosing to write about power and its relationship with the subjects of their writing. There are plenty for which this is a simplistic thrill of having circumstances align to force a person into sexual scenarios beyond their power to control (I've certainly been guilty of this a few times and it is not a positive depiction of the theme as I will elaborate on later). But, when well done, humiliation and shame can be the scaffolding through which you use sexuality to investigate different forms of power and how they play off against one another. Especially if you dig down to a Foucaultian perspective that the societal contract, civility, concepts of human decency and fundamental humanity are the base measures of power through which larger power dynamics later get built upon.

Although humiliation is a deeply personal feeling, what invokes it is always related to discarding a form of power that previously provided comfort. To be tied up is to lose bodily autonomy, to have body modification is to surrender the respect society offers to the overtly chaste, to become a Sub is to relinquish your power to a Dom.

In exhibitionism, for example, clothing is a sign of civility, to be in public without clothes is to surrender a fundamental face of power. How people react to that surrendering becomes indicative of how transactional you believe the social contract is. If someone is walking down the street naked there are now a myriad of questions at a myriad of levels that your story can now explore. At an individual level it can be looking at what other faces of power that character is still in possession of despite losing their civility? What fundamental beliefs do they hang onto when there is a foundation of societal norms has just been eroded? Once they regain their clothes, how do they view the world now they have experienced it as someone who is powerless in that way? At a societal level, do bystanders turn on the protagonist, feeling they have voided their obligation to the social contract and thus should no longer be afforded its protections, or do they expose a fundamental human kindness by helping someone who can do nothing for them?

This is why as I learned how to be a less bad writer, my protagonists actually ended up more consenting than in my earlier stories, because when the character chooses to relinquish a face of power, their reasoning offers insight and their humiliation bridges the cognitive dissonance of their actions. It reveals what faces of power they feel are fundamental, which ones they rely on, and which ones they are willing to discard for sexual thrills.

These themes can imbue deeper meaning into sex acts that cannot be delivered by regular pornography (not a feature unique to humiliation, but a feature prized by erotic literature). If you see a video of a stripper at a strip club, you do not know their life, their beliefs, the real intimate details beyond the physical. If you learn that stripper is a professional, going to work at a job they are good at, then the thrill is in learning about someone giving time and care to developing their skill at an erotic craft. But if you inject shame, say you learn that the stripper is the wife of a priest, who sneaks away at night and feels of shame and humiliation showing off her body to strangers, there are a myriad of intriguing questions as to why she does it. Some more simplistic and sometimes toxic writers would point to outside factors (e.g. she owes someone money or is being blackmailed), but there is a rich vein of storytelling to be found in constructing a character motivation to willingly submit to shame in this way (e.g. having married a priest at a young age she had never felt sexy, and although discarding her puritanical notions of sex is uncomfortable, that shame is mixed with pride that she can choose to be a sexual object just as much as she chooses not to day to day.)

I feel from some of the reactions in this forum that shame and humiliation are something to quickly clarify you're not into. I accept people aren't kink shaming, but there are many writing on these themes that stray into some pretty nasty territory and I can understand the need to quickly distance yourself from that. But there are people out there who indulge humiliation in the bedroom (and outside) and from that learn a lot about themselves, and ride a unique thrill in the process. And in the hands of a good writer (which I hope to be one day) these themes don't have to be toxic, but can instead be a great way to flesh out characters and the world they inhabit while pushing boundaries on established wisdoms related to sex.

 

[SimonDoom]

These themes can imbue deeper meaning into sex acts that cannot be delivered by regular pornography (not a feature unique to humiliation, but a feature prized by erotic literature). If you see a video of a stripper at a strip club, you do not know their life, their beliefs, the real intimate details beyond the physical. If you learn that stripper is a professional, going to work at a job they are good at, then the thrill is in learning about someone giving time and care to developing their skill at an erotic craft. But if you inject shame, say you learn that the stripper is the wife of a priest, who sneaks away at night and feels of shame and humiliation showing off her body to strangers, there are a myriad of intriguing questions as to why she does it. Some more simplistic and sometimes toxic writers would point to outside factors (e.g. she owes someone money or is being blackmailed), but there is a rich vein of storytelling to be found in constructing a character motivation to willingly submit to shame in this way (e.g. having married a priest at a young age she had never felt sexy, and although discarding her puritanical notions of sex is uncomfortable, that shame is mixed with pride that she can choose to be a sexual object just as much as she chooses not to day to day.)

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

In functional terms, humiliation and shame add dramatic tension.

If a powerful business executive takes a lunch break to visit a prostitute, it's not that interesting as an erotic story concept, without something more.

But if the powerful business executive takes a lunch break to visit a professional Domme who will humiliate him and step on his balls, then it becomes erotically interesting. Why would a powerful man want to do that? The story poses a dramatic, and erotic, question that we want an answer for. There's tension and conflict.

There's also an element of fetishism. Seeking eroticism through humiliation sounds very weird to many, but it's the very weirdness that is appealing to some, just like a foot or pee fetish. As someone who is fetishy in a number of ways, I "get" the appeal of humiliation as a fetish even if it isn't one of mine. Same thing as a foot fetish.

 

[Str4ng3rth4nf1ct1on]

But there are people out there who indulge humiliation in the bedroom (and outside) and from that learn a lot about themselves, and ride a unique thrill in the process.

This

 

[Str4ng3rth4nf1ct1on]

Seeking eroticism through humiliation sounds very weird to many, but it's the very weirdness that is appealing to some, just like a foot or pee fetish.

And this

 

[SimonDoom]

I can certainly talk about the cuck and D/s side of all this.

First, never forget PornWorld and Real World are two different places, just like pop culture representation and internet fantasies aren't genuine reflections of individual kinks. Fifty Shades has a few points in its favor but isn't a reflection of "real" BDSM, and half the stuff in LW isn't a reflection of "real" cuckolding. Not throwing shade, just giving the boilerplate disclaimer fantasy isn't reality.

Amen to this point. I see this as the threshold point that needs acknowledging anytime topics like this come up. These are two completely different questions:

1. Why do people in the real world find it erotic to be shamed and humiliated?

2. Why do people find stories about shame and humiliation erotically satisfying?

I have absolutely no desire in real life to have my balls stepped on. For one thing, I suck at dealing with pain. But I can enjoy a well-written story about a man having his balls stepped on because of all the weirdness and conflict and cultural implications involved in a man wanting that to happen, even though he's been taught all his life that such an act isn't appropriate for his role as a man. I find it erotically stimulating to read about people pushing their boundaries. It's less important to me what the boundaries are than that the author describes the process of pushing in a satisfying way.

 

[lc69hunter]

I didn't want to start a new thread, because I remembered this one from last month.

I do not understand the humiliation kink. It is definitely a fetish. Here on Lit, we see it in Fetish, we see it in Loving Wives, and we see it in Interracial, and numerous other places. And even here on the Board, we see guys really getting off on humiliation, especially down in Fetish and Sexuality area.

I understand why writers write it. There is obviously a market for it here. In Fetish, in Loving Wives, in Interracial, and even up here on the Board, down in Fetish and Sexuality, there are readers who apparently crave it. If a cuckold story has overt humiliation, it is not a loving wife story, as there is not loving wife, but a cruel cunt and belongs in Fetish.

As far as IR, there are some damned good writers in that genre , but they are overshadowed by the ones who publish the porn derived little cock husband humiliation, chastity, ownership. and all that other stuff which doesn't exist in real life.

I correspond with several Amazon writers in these genres, several who publish here also, and their take is that is what sells.

I still don't understand it.

 

[Altissimus]

I didn't want to start a new thread, because I remembered this one from last month.

I do not understand the humiliation kink. It is definitely a fetish. Here on Lit, we see it in Fetish, we see it in Loving Wives, and we see it in Interracial, and numerous other places. And even here on the Board, we see guys really getting off on humiliation, especially down in Fetish and Sexuality area.

I understand why writers write it. There is obviously a market for it here. In Fetish, in Loving Wives, in Interracial, and even up here on the Board, down in Fetish and Sexuality, there are readers who apparently crave it. If a cuckold story has overt humiliation, it is not a loving wife story, as there is not loving wife, but a cruel cunt and belongs in Fetish.

As far as IR, there are some damned good writers in that genre , but they are overshadowed by the ones who publish the porn derived little cock husband humiliation, chastity, ownership. and all that other stuff which doesn't exist in real life.

I correspond with several Amazon writers in these genres, several who publish here also, and their take is that is what sells.

I still don't understand it.

Not that I intend this as an instant "Ah! I see now!" moment, but when I personally think about humiliation it's in a D/s context not a cuck one. I don't write cuck or LW and, while I can theoretically understand humiliation there, I don't 'get' cuck at all.

Humiliation turns up in a great number of spheres IMO - one of the other most common ones being Exhibitionism, especially in the CMNF context.

I suppose that we are all familiar enough with humiliation as an emotion that we do all understand it, so when you say you don't I assume you mean 'in the Lit context of...' and thus I wonder if that applies equally across (say) cuck, exhibitionism and D/s, or whether it's just cuck where you don't understand it's purpose.

Just curious really - the responses have been interesting.