Shame and humiliation in sex

[madelinemasoch]

After reading this entire thread, something I think is being neglected here (among many) is that pain (emotional in this case) can actually be the precondition for arousal. As in, the pain gives one permission to take pleasure. That's how it operates.

 

[XerXesXu]

This thread’s like tresor trouve to me.

About 2015, I people-watched on ‘paraphilia-badged’ forums hoping to gain insight into things I personally, didn’t experience. They assumed the ‘that’ but didn’t explore the ‘why?’ I wanted to understand the ‘why?’

I dropped off Lit for half a decade, then came across AH. Besides the 123 of writing, the ‘why?’ and internal experience of writing erotica is often discussed, and by far more articulate people than on some other forums. I’ll say no more than I find such threads compelling and rewarding, and an aid to my understanding of the world.

NB: For the avoidance of doubt, I don’t masturbate to these threads, I cerebrate, I derive great pleasure from that.

 

[Altissimus]

I have always maintained that at the end of the day, sex is nothing more than body parts, body fluids and pleasure, which spans everything we see on Lit, and far more

Body parts, body fluids and pleasure?

I assume emotions must fit under the last, as they clearly don't fit under the first two. But they're not all pleasurable either. It's a pretty big catch-all in my opinion. I think sex is fundamentally more complex than merely the physical act. Not every time, granted, but... when it matters.

 

[lc69hunter]

Coming in with a preconceived notion of humiliation, I didn't get, as someone earlier mentoned, there is a difference between being humiliated, and feeling humiliation. Thank you. It clarifies a lot in my mind

 

[AchtungNight]

An example of how I feel about shame and humiliation in sex can be found with the characters Ms. Oatlash and Jesse Custer in the graphic novel Preacher: Salvation. She’s a lawyer who enjoys dressing up as a Nazi dominatrix and humiliating her subs. Falling in love with Jesse, she invites him to be her domme. He walks away in disgust. I’d do likewise. Not saying more.

 

[BongoGal]

I have no interest in shame and/or humiliation on my or anyone else's part....in real life. I will admit, though, that sometimes sexual embarrassment can get me going in erotic stories.

 

[dontneedone]

I have no interest in shame and/or humiliation on my or anyone else's part....in real life. I will admit, though, that sometimes sexual embarrassment can get me going in erotic stories.

Hey, weren't you once famous for purposely giving guys embarrassing erections?

 

[BongoGal]

Hey, weren't you once famous for purposely giving guys embarrassing erections?

I don't think I was famous for that, but yeah, that used to be a tendency of mine. That was all over half a lifetime ago, though. Now I look back a bit surprised that I never got any comeuppance for that.

 

[dontneedone]

I don't think I was famous for that, but yeah, that used to be a tendency of mine. That was all over half a lifetime ago, though. Now I look back a bit surprised that I never got any comeuppance for that.

It's because as panicky as they got, they privately loved it.

 

[komesh]

Many sexy thoughts are shameful, let say while you are fucking your partner you could think about some other one, it means you are fucking her but thinking and fantasizing about others. So, what is this scenario? Is it shame or humiliation? honestly, I don't think it is a humiliation, because sex without fantasy is just physical activity. Real sex is a combination of mental and physical activity so there is nothing shameful to do or think.

 

[van_delay]

Men whose mothers belittled, insulted, humiliated, and degraded them as boys often love the same treatment as adults.

Yes, please.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Submission isn't the same as humiliation. Exhibitionism isn't the same as humiliation, either. They're quite different concepts, in my erotic lexicon. Sure, there's a power exchange, but where's the humiliation in my stories? It certainly wasn't in my mind when I wrote those stories - and I think I'd know my own kinks by now.

No, they aren't but they tend to go hand in hand in many cases.
Unless the person is a masochist, getting off on the actual physical pain, a person who submits to a spanking or some such thing has to feel a bit of humiliation or shame that they gave up power to another. They made themselves slightly less or at least let that person take them over.
It is the same with other forms of power play. I am not talking about the type of shame where the person considers himself worthless and deserves every bit of crap heaped upon him. I am talking the ' damn, here I am a big muscular man and this little woman has the power to spank and peg me." If nothing else, getting aroused from that 'abuse' is shameful to some degree.
This is part and parcel to almost any story in BDSM, fetish, non-consent etc.

 

[Iwroteathing]

There's seems to be a bunch of friction just about the definition of "Humiliation". I have literally just a published and entire guide on writing humiliation and the underlying frameworks (focussed on women being the subjects of humiliation so all the SPH stuff is tangential but still relevant) and the definition I eventually came to was this:
"The feeling of having relinquished a form of power that previously brought you mental comfort."

Power is diverse and can come from many desperate or even conflicting places, but to humiliate someone is to take a foundational part of how they are projected and undermine or destroy it.

This is why I love writing Humiliation stories, because it is illuminating to characters and the society they are in to figure out what structures they are reliant upon for a comfortable life and forcing them to trade them off against one another, to dig down to what they value more than their comfort and how self-destructive the pure indulgence of that drive is.

I get the tidal wave of people who don't get this, it's healthy, sex shouldn't be about power and especially shouldn't be about its diminishment. But from a literary perspective you can express some complex themes through humiliation as a story mechanism.

 

[madelinemasoch]

There's seems to be a bunch of friction just about the definition of "Humiliation". I have literally just a published and entire guide on writing humiliation and the underlying frameworks (focussed on women being the subjects of humiliation so all the SPH stuff is tangential but still relevant) and the definition I eventually came to was this:
"The feeling of having relinquished a form of power that previously brought you mental comfort."

Power is diverse and can come from many desperate or even conflicting places, but to humiliate someone is to take a foundational part of how they are projected and undermine or destroy it.

This is why I love writing Humiliation stories, because it is illuminating to characters and the society they are in to figure out what structures they are reliant upon for a comfortable life and forcing them to trade them off against one another, to dig down to what they value more than their comfort and how self-destructive the pure indulgence of that drive is.

This just makes my siren go off on the inside.

I get the tidal wave of people who don't get this, it's healthy, sex shouldn't be about power and especially shouldn't be about its diminishment. But from a literary perspective you can express some complex themes through humiliation as a story mechanism.

No, I disagree. Sex is always about power whether you realize it or not. It's not about genitalia. Genitals are just the weapons used in the war.

 

[Iwroteathing]

This just makes my siren go off on the inside.


No, I disagree. Sex is always about power whether you realize it or not. It's not about genitalia. Genitals are just the weapons used in the war.

Thorough disagree with you on both points. Firstly claiming that sirens are going off when I am defining a term in a literary discussion is an unproductive act of ad-hominum. Humiliation is evocative and absolutely can go to toxic places, so we should tread lightly on the discussion, but a definition of the word is certainly not a source of toxic attitudes.

Secondly, I definitely don't think mutually pleasurable sex is inherently a power struggle. Power is imposed on sexuality by society, the expectations and exploitations the follow from an enjoyable act between two consenting adults is not a part of the act itself. Exploring the baggage society places on sex is a great source of literary investigation, as is how it reflects on the people who think that sex should be seen as a part of a power struggle with winners and losers.

 

[MillieDynamite]

There is no power struggle between my SO and I. We are equals in all things. We never use sex as a battle for control. We use sex to give and receive pleasure. If every sexual encounter you have is a battle for dominance and to force submission, I'm sorry for you. You've chosen partners poorly. As to the kink of shame and humiliation, it's real and very pleasurable to those who enjoy it. I only write about it, so not my thing at all.

No, I disagree. Sex is always about power whether you realize it or not. It's not about genitalia. Genitals are just the weapons used in the war.

Or am I reading you wrong?

 

[madelinemasoch]

There is no power struggle between my SO and I. We are equals in all things. We never use sex as a battle for control. We use sex to give and receive pleasure. If every sexual encounter you have is a battle for dominance and to force submission, I'm sorry for you. You've chosen partners poorly. As to the kink of shame and humiliation, it's real and very pleasurable to those who enjoy it. I only write about it, so not my thing at all.

Or am I reading you wrong?

Oh, Millie, you're sweet. I'm happy for you and your partner. It's not about my past partners, it's just my philosophy.

 

[MillieDynamite]

@madelinemasoch, it's a very depressing philosophy. But would make a fantastic set of stories.

Oh, Millie, you're sweet. I'm happy for you and your partner. It's not about my past partners, it's just my philosophy.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Firstly claiming that sirens are going off when I am defining a term in a literary discussion is an unproductive act of ad-hominum.

Dude, that's not "ad-hominum", it's just the truth. I'm describing a sensation I got when I read it. It's not an attack on you at all.

Humiliation is evocative and absolutely can go to toxic places, so we should tread lightly on the discussion, but a definition of the word is certainly not a source of toxic attitudes.

I wasn't suggesting that.

Secondly, I definitely don't think mutually pleasurable sex is inherently a power struggle. Power is imposed on sexuality by society, the expectations and exploitations the follow from an enjoyable act between two consenting adults is not a part of the act itself. Exploring the baggage society places on sex is a great source of literary investigation, as is how it reflects on the people who think that sex should be seen as a part of a power struggle with winners and losers.

Power is everywhere. If you're going to claim it's imposed upon "sexuality" by "society", you have to get more specific, because society is historical and not a monolith–which society, where, when, and how, has imposed power upon sexuality? You'd find different examples for every place in time and history.

What you're saying can't be limited to discrimination, exploitation, or even prohibitions on certain sexual actions. For example, one might say that a confessional booth exercises power by calling you forth to confess your perversions and then typo-graphing them. One might even say this is a microcosm of a regime in a society that operates this way in general. Sexuality isn't repressed there, it's talked about all the time! Confess, confess, confess! That's what our society looks like to me, now.

The fact that an act is enjoyable for all of its participants doesn't mean that power isn't operating in the action. Power doesn't always feel bad when it's exercised on you, or when it's invested in you. To put it simply, power struggle does not imply toxicity.

Nothing I'm saying is reflecting any kind of personal "baggage" I have. It's actually kind of disappointing that nobody pointed out how insightful and mysterious I sounded, but that's Lit for you.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No, I disagree. Sex is always about power whether you realize it or not. It's not about genitalia. Genitals are just the weapons used in the war.

You have a bleak world view. Sex isn't always about power (i grant you, it often is). If you're fortunate, though, it can be more about love.

 

[SimonDoom]

No, I disagree. Sex is always about power whether you realize it or not. It's not about genitalia. Genitals are just the weapons used in the war.

I certainly think it CAN be about power, and if this is the way you personally experience it, nobody can deny the authenticity of your experience. But I'm a staunch anti-essentialist, who doesn't believe that anything has to be anything all the time. Sex can be different things to different people, and their perspectives and experiences are as valid as anyone else's. I don't believe that every sexual encounter is about power. Sometimes it's just about dick and pussy.

 

[AG31]

Sex is always about power whether you realize it or not.

I disagree. It can be about power. But it can also be about mutual love. The parts just fitting together beautifully.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I disagree. It can be about power. But it can also be about mutual love. The parts just fitting together beautifully.

Oh Yeah. I fully agree. That is called vanilla sex.

 

[AG31]

Dude, that's not "ad-hominum", it's just the truth. I'm describing a sensation I got when I read it. It's not an attack on you at all.


I wasn't suggesting that.


Power is everywhere. If you're going to claim it's imposed upon "sexuality" by "society", you have to get more specific, because society is historical and not a monolith–which society, where, when, and how, has imposed power upon sexuality? You'd find different examples for every place in time and history.

What you're saying can't be limited to discrimination, exploitation, or even prohibitions on certain sexual actions. For example, one might say that a confessional booth exercises power by calling you forth to confess your perversions and then typo-graphing them. One might even say this is a microcosm of a regime in a society that operates this way in general. Sexuality isn't repressed there, it's talked about all the time! Confess, confess, confess! That's what our society looks like to me, now.

The fact that an act is enjoyable for all of its participants doesn't mean that power isn't operating in the action. Power doesn't always feel bad when it's exercised on you, or when it's invested in you. To put it simply, power struggle does not imply toxicity.

Nothing I'm saying is reflecting any kind of personal "baggage" I have. It's actually kind of disappointing that nobody pointed out how insightful and mysterious I sounded, but that's Lit for you.

I'm still not getting it. So you agree that sex can be mutually pleasurable and still a power situation. You're saying everything is a power situation? If that's the case, then the discussion doesn't seem particularly appropriate to literotica. ?????

 

[AlexBailey]

Shame and humiliation are complicated for me.

It sounds strange to say it but as a queer kid growing up in a Catholic household, shame and humiliation are so familiar that they can feel somewhat comforting.

While this is true, there are times when S&H can be triggering and suffocating.

I think it mostly depends on the intention.