Shame and humiliation in sex

[lc69hunter]

Good points. I suppose in the CFNM or CMNF, humiliation is or can be a big part of it and can also be an erotic rush. My second wife sometimes pulled that crap on me, and threatened me even more about it

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

In my own work I make a distinction between being humiliated and feeling humiliated.

A story about a dom shaming a sub? I nope right outta there. Not a turn-on at all.

A story about someone feeling shame when they give in to their animal desires? Pure catnip. I’ll roll around in it until my eyes glaze over.

 

[AchtungNight]

I think the problem I have with stories like this is having to eroticize the person who *causes* the shame and humiliation as well as the one who *receives* it. To me, someone who has experienced much past trauma from bullies, gossip mongers, gaslighters, and others who use shame and humiliation as weapons, this is just not fun.

I once planned to feature a domme villain in my stories who found inflicting shame and humiliation a turn-on and make her primary antagonist someone who was slut-shamed and blackmailed by her. The thing is, this antagonist had already gone through her own slut-shaming and decided she liked what she liked, and she wasn’t the only person like her, so she was going to continue indulging her ways, others’ opinions notwithstanding. That included the villain. She turned the tables on them by threatening to expose their hypocrisy- the villain was a proud participant in slut activities when indulging their kink- and then saying “you don’t mess with me and I’ll return the favor.” Let’s just say the villain wasn’t ready for that. I ended up scrapping the story because it was too disturbing for me.

IRL, I have been victimized many times by S&H. The possibility of it happening again still frightens me in the extreme. Slut shaming is IMO the worst form of it. Someone finding that a turn on… even I can’t imagine that being real. Then again, my domme villain did have at least four willing subs. One of them was her sexual partner for over 20 years, her husband for about 8 years. They had two kids, then they divorced. In my mind anyway. I don’t think I will ever be able to put either character on paper again. Let’s leave it at that.

 

[NancyPan]

Erotic humiliation is an art form. Done poorly it is not erotic and can be a turn-off, and even hurtful. I am very aroused by erotic humiliation, for example, my wife reminding me why she must control my penis or laughing at my erection. However, there are a few important factors that keep such comments or demeanor in the realm of erotic rather than crossing the sometimes tricky boundary into meanness: 1) I know that fundamentally, she cares about me. 2) Her tone of voice. 3) Such comments or mocking are made in the context of our already agreed upon power exchange — I am her sexual submissive. They are not made about (or during) other aspects of our life. She knows (obviously has witnessed plus I have told her) that I am aroused by erotic humiliation, so she does it with my consent.

I have seen videos of actresses trying to do SPH JOI that are not erotic at all. They don’t seem to really “get it,” and of course they have no connection to the anonymous guy they are supposedly speaking to. Although I am not into the cuckold fantasy personally, the humiliation would not work as erotic in those situations unless the husband trusted that his wife loved him and was staying with him, but she is demonstrating that he is sexually inadequate and that her sexual needs come first. He trusts that she loves him and will return to him, but is humiliated by the demonstration of his inadequacy and her superiority.

I have written about the power of erotic humiliation in my series of stories “The Domme Club.”

 

[SimonDoom]

As far as IR, there are some damned good writers in that genre , but they are overshadowed by the ones who publish the porn derived little cock husband humiliation, chastity, ownership. and all that other stuff which doesn't exist in real life.

How can you say it doesn't exist in real life? You obviously cannot know that. Based on comments I've read, I'd say it DOES exist, although I have no idea how common it is. It's not something I'm personally involved in.

People should be very cautious about insisting that X or Y doesn't exist in real life. There is so much variety in human tastes and habits that I would wager that for almost everything you can conceive of, it probably exists somewhere.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I write femdom, but I write it so the dom/sub relationship isn't formal in any way, and I am also always trying to make it overwhelmingly seductive in its nature. The relationship is always absolutely consensual and there is no shame or humiliation in it, not even the slightest bit. I must say humiliation is a huge turn-off for me so I guess that is one more "no" from an AH member.

 

[NancyPan]

I write femdom, but I write it so the dom/sub relationship isn't formal in any way, and I am also always trying to make it overwhelmingly seductive in its nature. The relationship is always absolutely consensual and there is no shame or humiliation in it, not even the slightest bit. I must say humiliation is a huge turn-off for me so I guess that is one more "no" from an AH member.

Looked you up in the author index in the Story section and came up blank?

Confused about how there can be absolutely no humiliation in a Dom/sub relationship. By the very nature of submitting, the submissive is humbling themself and behaving in a manner that they would not in the general public. I think you are playing word games to suggest there is no humiliation in sexual submission.

Unfortunately, the OP has used the terms shame and humiliation synonymously. Although loosely they may fit a similar definition, technically shame tends to connote a deeper rooted emotion often tied to trauma or a real feeling of being less than. Humiliation, particularly sexual humiliation in the context it is being discussed here, is an erotized embarrassment that does not diminish a person’s sense of self.

If my wife teases me about my inability to keep from ejaculating while I am worshiping her pussy, it humiliates me in an arousing way and actually triggers me to do just what she is teasing me about. I am humiliated by my lack of control (and her gently mocking tone), but not ashamed. Now, if she were to announce this at a dinner party (which she would never do), I would be deeply ashamed, hurt, and angry.

 

[lc69hunter]

How can you say it doesn't exist in real life? You obviously cannot know that. Based on comments I've read, I'd say it DOES exist, although I have no idea how common it is. It's not something I'm personally involved in.

People should be very cautious about insisting that X or Y doesn't exist in real life. There is so much variety in human tastes and habits that I would wager that for almost everything you can conceive of, it probably exists somewhere.

Simon, I am 73 years old and have seen, and done, a lot of kinky shit in my lifetime. Let me tell you what I know. In the early 70's I was in a unit of 130 Marines, and at one point one of only sixteen white guys in the unit. I went out to some black clubs with my friends. Fact, there are a lot of white women who fantasize about black cock. The clubs had a lot of white women there including a number of married ones, some with their husbands. What I saw. I saw husbands wanking as their wife got seduced on the dance floor. I saw wives being taken in front of their husbands, sometimes spit roasted in front of their husbands. I saw black men enjoying taking a white wife in front her husband. I saw the wife enjoying be fucked by a black cock, enjoying doing it in front of her husband, and also enjoying that he was enjoying watching her getting fucked by that black cock. Pure animalistic sex, and all parties getting something out of it. What I didn't see. Saw no cages, saw no overt humiliation, saw no conversation about husband chastity, no conversation about ownership, nor whoring nor any other of that porn induced bullshit. Like you, Simon, that is not to say it doesn't exist, but if it does, it is rare and hidden.

Hell, my second wife occasionally liked some black flavor. I took her to one of the clubs, enjoyed watching her play on the dance floor, but it wasn't really our scene, so any one we hooked up with was a one on one, and generally ended up as a threesome

 

[MillieDynamite]

I read a story about a female assassin who was turned on by inflicting pain and became very sexually aroused by her kills. Sadly, I don't remember the author or the story title other than Kill was in the title.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Looked you up in the author index in the Story section and came up blank?

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/yet-another-ratings-thread-or-is-it.1593945/

Looked you up in the author index in the Story section and came up blank?

Confused about how there can be absolutely no humiliation in a Dom/sub relationship. By the very nature of submitting, the submissive is humbling themself and behaving in a manner that they would not in the general public. I think you are playing word games to suggest there is no humiliation in sexual submission.

I am not playing any word games, you are simply someone who sees only one flavor of a dom/sub relationship. The d/s that I write is a seductive powerplay, a sensual struggle for control where both sides are enjoying the game. The dom side gets the kick out of being in control and being worshipped, the sub side gets the kick out of being controlled and worshipping the dom. The only time I added some humiliation into one of my stories/chapters was when I brought a side character who enjoyed being dominant and liked to humiliate the sub who clearly wasn't into it. I did it only briefly, to emphasize the difference between that relationship and a completely different, loving and seductive, d/s relationship between the main characters. Only one chapter of my series had such content and as I've said, it was quite brief.

 

[Euphony]

In the early 70's... What I saw.

Using 1974 (most recent "early 70s" year) that was 48 years ago. That's an ocean of time for things to have changed from your lived (then) experience.

Think about the seismic shifts that have taken place in the sexual mores in that time and the exponential increase in access to media (which helps to normalize previously taboo behavior) VHS, DVD, the internet, streaming, etc., changed the landscape of what people have been exposed to and now what is/isn't regularly practiced behavior behind closed doors.

if it does, it is rare and hidden.

@SimonDoom regularly champions the concept of "your personal understanding =/= overall understanding" and the often fallacy of concluding what is/isn't "norm" or happening based on your experience, or social circle, or personal interests and/or moralities. Research into human sexuality has barely scratched the surface of what's going on due to funding issues, shame (honest participants are hard to come by) and just the general puritanical culture that exists around a lot of these subjects.

Many people barely have an understanding of the goings on of their own sexuality, why they like what they like or don't or even have mastered boring everyday sexual issues like how to keep their spark going. (why else is sexual self-help so prominent in media/marketing if we've figured ourselves out?)

To project confidence in what others are getting up to in hidden spaces is a fool's errand.

 

[AchtungNight]

Regarding the domme in my stories, she enjoys the shame and humiliation for its own sake, rarely if ever thinking about her subs and whether or not they enjoy it (they all ultimately do not). Does she have a lasting relationship with anyone? No. Though I do hold out hope for her and can gladly say her twin sister has a lasting relationship with no shame or humiliation involved. That’s all I’m going to say about that here. Fans of my work and private inquiries can address the gaps. The rest of you still discussing this issue- TTFN & good luck.

 

[SimonDoom]

Simon, I am 73 years old and have seen, and done, a lot of kinky shit in my lifetime. Let me tell you what I know. In the early 70's I was in a unit of 130 Marines, and at one point one of only sixteen white guys in the unit. I went out to some black clubs with my friends. Fact, there are a lot of white women who fantasize about black cock. The clubs had a lot of white women there including a number of married ones, some with their husbands. What I saw. I saw husbands wanking as their wife got seduced on the dance floor. I saw wives being taken in front of their husbands, sometimes spit roasted in front of their husbands. I saw black men enjoying taking a white wife in front her husband. I saw the wife enjoying be fucked by a black cock, enjoying doing it in front of her husband, and also enjoying that he was enjoying watching her getting fucked by that black cock. Pure animalistic sex, and all parties getting something out of it. What I didn't see. Saw no cages, saw no overt humiliation, saw no conversation about husband chastity, no conversation about ownership, nor whoring nor any other of that porn induced bullshit. Like you, Simon, that is not to say it doesn't exist, but if it does, it is rare and hidden.

Hell, my second wife occasionally liked some black flavor. I took her to one of the clubs, enjoyed watching her play on the dance floor, but it wasn't really our scene, so any one we hooked up with was a one on one, and generally ended up as a threesome

Your personal experience sounds wilder than mine, no question about that!

Here's the thing. A huge number of people, if you didn't personally testify to having seen what you have seen, would say, "That's bullshit! Nobody really acts that way." But you know first-hand that they do.

But no matter how extensive your experience (and I don't doubt it), it's a small sliver of the full range of real human experience. I think it's hazardous to speculate about what's rare based on our own individual experiences.

I've check out enough online fetish sites and have had sufficient interactions with other men online to believe that the male humiliation/cuck fantasy is HUGE and that it's practiced far more than most people realize. I think there ARE a lot of men who have their cocks put in cages and their balls stomped on. I have no personal experience with it, and it doesn't turn me on, but I think it's out there much more than you may think.

 

[SimonDoom]

Using 1974 (most recent "early 70s" year) that was 48 years ago. That's an ocean of time for things to have changed from your lived (then) experience.

Think about the seismic shifts that have taken place in the sexual mores in that time and the exponential increase in access to media (which helps to normalize previously taboo behavior) VHS, DVD, the internet, streaming, etc., changed the landscape of what people have been exposed to and now what is/isn't regularly practiced behavior behind closed doors.



@SimonDoom regularly champions the concept of "your personal understanding =/= overall understanding" and the often fallacy of concluding what is/isn't "norm" or happening based on your experience, or social circle, or personal interests and/or moralities. Research into human sexuality has barely scratched the surface of what's going on due to funding issues, shame (honest participants are hard to come by) and just the general puritanical culture that exists around a lot of these subjects.

Many people barely have an understanding of the goings on of their own sexuality, why they like what they like or don't or even have mastered boring everyday sexual issues like how to keep their spark going. (why else is sexual self-help so prominent in media/marketing if we've figured ourselves out?)

To project confidence in what others are getting up to in hidden spaces is a fool's errand.

That's a fair description of my point of view, and I agree with all the rest of it as well. Thanks.

 

[Euphony]

That's a fair description of my point of view, and I agree with all the rest of it as well. Thanks.

I didn't even want to open the can o' worms that is the changing idea of "masculinity."

Choosing decades, I'd say the 70s were the most fraught decade to want to play with masculinity/power/gender roles. The downsides, in that decade in particular, must have been immense.

I almost wonder if the 80s more fluid gendering or the androgyny push of the 90s didn't somewhat birth an explosion in power switch sexual culture. (movies and internet examples/confidential shopping being a super accelerant. )

 

[NancyPan]

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/yet-another-ratings-thread-or-is-it.1593945/


I am not playing any word games, you are simply someone who sees only one flavor of a dom/sub relationship. The d/s that I write is a seductive powerplay, a sensual struggle for control where both sides are enjoying the game. The dom side gets the kick out of being in control and being worshipped, the sub side gets the kick out of being controlled and worshipping the dom.

You have accurately described any consensual D/s relationship. I would suggest that sexually eroticizing the worship of another human being or their body parts is inherently humiliating, but not shameful (unless revealed to others without consent). Being in a submissive position to another is, in and of itself, humiliating. Consenting to do it for arousal is even more humbling.

The only time I added some humiliation into one of my stories/chapters was when I brought a side character who enjoyed being dominant and liked to humiliate the sub who clearly wasn't into it. I did it only briefly, to emphasize the difference between that relationship and a completely different, loving and seductive, d/s relationship between the main characters. Only one chapter of my series had such content and as I've said,

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I would suggest that sexually eroticizing the worship of another human being or their body parts is inherently humiliating, but not shameful (unless revealed to others without consent). Being in a submissive position to another is, in and of itself, humiliating. Consenting to do it for arousal is even more humbling.

That is your view of the d/s relationship. You shouldn't think that it is shared by everybody else, though. Something that would be humiliating for one person might feel quite normal to another. It is all in the mindset. Just to give you a crude example:
Once, people knelt before the king or the emperor. It probably wasn't a humiliating experience for most of those who knelt - they simply took it as a regular act of loyalty and respect towards the king. Even today, many people kneel in prayer. They kneel in churches and mosques, and it is not something that makes them feel any humiliation. Actually, it makes them feel at peace or it even gives them a sense of exaltation, a feeling of closeness with god. To be perfectly honest, I would feel humiliated if I had to kneel before a king or if I knelt for a prayer as I am simply lacking the proper conviction. I would not feel humiliated one bit if I knelt at the feet of a beautiful woman, one I loved and adored, and did something in the sense of erotic d/s play, even if my liking of d/s play extends only to sex. I would never be subservient to any woman (or man) outside of sexual play.

Also, you seem to be mixing humiliation and being humble. Even if I am not a native English speaker, I don't see those two being remotely the same.
Daddy Google says: Humility is to keep one grounded and free from arrogance, pride, and haughtiness.
Humiliation is “to cause a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity."
Not the same.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Humbling and humble aren't the same thing. Being humble is an act of humility and being humbled is an act of humiliation.

That is your view of the d/s relationship. You shouldn't think that it is shared by everybody else, though. Something that would be humiliating for one person might feel quite normal to another. It is all in the mindset. Just to give you a crude example:
Once, people knelt before the king or the emperor. It probably wasn't a humiliating experience for most of those who knelt - they simply took it as a regular act of loyalty and respect towards the king. Even today, many people kneel in prayer. They kneel in churches and mosques, and it is not something that makes them feel any humiliation. Actually, it makes them feel at peace or it even gives them a sense of exaltation, a feeling of closeness with god. To be perfectly honest, I would feel humiliated if I had to kneel before a king or if I knelt for a prayer as I am simply lacking the proper conviction. I would not feel humiliated one bit if I knelt at the feet of a beautiful woman, one I loved and adored, and did something in the sense of erotic d/s play, even if my liking of d/s play extends only to sex. I would never be subservient to any woman (or man) outside of sexual play.

Also, you seem to be mixing humiliation and being humble. Even if I am not a native English speaker, I don't see those two being remotely the same.
Daddy Google says: Humility is to keep one grounded and free from arrogance, pride, and haughtiness.
Humiliation is “to cause a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity."
Not the same.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Humility is The quality or condition of being humble. Humble is marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.

Humiliation is the act of degradation.

Humbling someone is to bring them low or humiliate them.

 

[NancyPan]

Let me correct myself, I meant to type: “even more humiliating.” I give up. Sexually eroticizing worshipping a person or a body part is in no way akin to a peasant worshipping a king (which, btw, I do think is humiliating). Worshipping a deity who someone truly believes is a “supreme being” is a wholly different category.

If I kneel to kiss the ass of my Dominant wife and she laughs at the erection this act produces, I am humiliated by her witnessing my lack of control over my arousal, and further humiliated by her noting how small it is. She knows that I become more aroused by her amusement. I am not humiliated to serve her, I am honored to serve her. The humiliation is in things she says, her tone, her control of my orgasms, reminders that she controls access to her pussy, that I am such a good “housecleaner,” how pussy-wiped I am, etc. All things said in private in a gently mocking tone that she knows I would be horrified if they were revealed to our vanilla friends.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Confused about how there can be absolutely no humiliation in a Dom/sub relationship. By the very nature of submitting, the submissive is humbling themself and behaving in a manner that they would not in the general public. I think you are playing word games to suggest there is no humiliation in sexual submission.
...
If my wife teases me about my inability to keep from ejaculating while I am worshiping her pussy, it humiliates me in an arousing way and actually triggers me to do just what she is teasing me about. I am humiliated by my lack of control (and her gently mocking tone), but not ashamed. Now, if she were to announce this at a dinner party (which she would never do), I would be deeply ashamed, hurt, and angry.

But if you are simply licking her pussy because she has asked or ordered to, and you choose to submit to her will, where's the humiliation in that? Given its the 21st century and I'd hope men would have got over the idea that giving oral sex is emasculating.

I think most relationships involving humiliation go as far as the point that the submissive finds it both humiliating and erotic, and the dominant generally doesn't want to go beyond the territory where their sub is getting some form of eroticism out of it. But in stories or porn, the sub can fantasise that if some humiliation is erotic, more humiliation would be more erotic.

How can you say it doesn't exist in real life? You obviously cannot know that. Based on comments I've read, I'd say it DOES exist, although I have no idea how common it is. It's not something I'm personally involved in.

People should be very cautious about insisting that X or Y doesn't exist in real life. There is so much variety in human tastes and habits that I would wager that for almost everything you can conceive of, it probably exists somewhere.

Indeed. People's experiences will be very different. For example, I don't know anyone who fetishises black men - given half the local population are mixed race black/white of some form, the novelty clearly wore off a couple generations ago round here. Whereas I do know half a dozen men who wear cock cages occasionally or much of the time, some people in sub/dom relationships, some of whom insist it's 24/7 even though no domming happens outside appropriate times, and people who get off on restraint and certain types of pain.

The small penis thing is odd - some of the guys' fantasy seems to be almost giving permission to not have to be a 'proper man' and be feminised. It'll be interesting to see if the current late-teens, who are about 1/3 not straight and often genderqueer, still have the same fantasies. Apparently there's been a big drop in interest in spanking and corporal punishment porn, a generation after it stopped being used in schools.

For other men, it might be just a fantasy that it's OK to be inadequate yet still get sexual attention. But among the bisexual men who happily tell me about their cock cages etc, I don't know any with the sph fetish. Are they too embarrassed to tell me, or is it more of a thing among repressed straight guys? No idea.

 

[lc69hunter]

Interesting discussion, coming from individuals with a broad breadth of experiences.

I have always maintained that at the end of the day, sex is nothing more than body parts, body fluids and pleasure, which spans everything we see on Lit, and far more

 

[NancyPan]

You can not judge what is, or should be either arousing or humiliating for another person. I’ve made my points. I’m bowing out of this discussion.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I still don't understand it.

I have, professionally, met quite a few psychologists and asked them the same question because I, too, tried to understand it. Six out of Seven of them told me basically the same thing: It's about conditioning.

We have something in our brains they called "salience detectors", releasing dopamine in response to either pleasure or pain. Basically, our brains form connections, or “learn”, by associating impressions whenever the presence of dopamine indicates the occurrence of an event that must not be ignored. This way we learn: Being praised makes me feel good, so I should do more that earns me praise.

But we also know that protracted physical or emotional pain can trigger the release of endorphins which, in turn, activate dopamine-triggering neurons. The result is that there is an innate rewarding component to both pleasurable and painful experiences, regardless of them being physical or emotional.

Now, we simply don’t entirely understand how sexual kinks are formed in an individual, but the most accepted hypothesis for pleasure-pain-connections comes from studies about spicy food. If a child grows up in a region where chili peppers are readily eaten, they will reject them at first as they hurt their mouth. But, by the age of about Five, they will almost certainly have developed a taste for that painful food as they first grow accustomed to it and, second, keep getting positive reinforcement from their peers for consuming them. Curiously, this is something you can only do with people.

It is commonly assumed that humans have a predisposition to learn to find certain forms of pain rewarding, like, for example, muscle pain after heavy workouts.

Now, how does any of this translate into erotic humiliation? Here’s a simple example of how this could have developed in an individual:

A man has a small penis. He knows he has a small penis. So, when he interacts with a woman, he expects his small penis to become relevant as soon as he drops his pants. Consequently, he goes into the encounter feeling already nervous, fearful, and excited. A peculiar mix of emotions which will cause the release of endorphins, which will cause the dopamine neurons to activate, which will cause his brain to associate nervousness and fear with sexual excitement.

Next, let's say the woman doesn’t break out in laughter and ends all activities, but instead keeps playing with the Man's small penis while giggling about it being so small. Now he will feel shame and humiliation while also feeling pleasure from the direct stimulation, causing his brain to associate those two things with each other. And, in the end, he develops a taste for SPH.

Again, before Simon shows up and tells me how I shouldn’t generalize: Please note how I specifically stated that we don’t know any of this for sure. It is the prevalent hypothesis, followed by an example of how it COULD develop in an individual.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Men whose mothers belittled, insulted, humiliated, and degraded them as boys often love the same treatment as adults.