Smoking Gun In Obama/Trump Spy Case?

[Aglaopheme]

I actually can't. My OS on this computer is so old that links crash my browser (Firefox 5.0)**. All I can do is go with what I hear from the news every day and try to remember what's been said.

Sometimes I misremember or forget things, but I still have the basics pretty firm in my head. Looking at the big picture, I'm not so certain that the hunt is for Manafort and/or Trump any longer. I don't know who they might be looking for/at but I have a feeling in the back of my head that Mueller isn't going to indict Manafort. Or Trump. There's no evidence of wrong doing. If there was, the Grand Jury the MSM say has been empaneled by Mueller would have done something by now.

In short, I don't believe there's evidence OR a Grand Jury.

Eventually indicting some foreign agent might happen. Who that would be I have no idea, but it's possible. But I don't see it happening to either Trump or Manafort.


**I have new hardware I can migrate into, but I'm working too much to download and install the OS image and export all my settings to the new system. I've trying to do that for over a year and not getting it done. I just don't have the time.

Well, that is a good thing to know. Without you being able to read links, I'm happy to say we shall just wait and see, rather than cut and paste. I feel that you are wrong. Just how good is that feeling in the back of your head? We should totally make a wager. Fair warning, I am horrible at making wagers unless they involve cards, or other forms of gaming.

 

[Aglaopheme]

I'll quote this bit for you.

Mueller's team could be facing a deadline if they want to bring charges arising from older tax returns: The six-year statute of limitations for Manafort's taxes filed in 2011 expires October 15. They already may be too late for the years prior to 2011.

 

[Hypoxia]

There's no evidence of wrong doing. If there was, the Grand Jury the MSM say has been empaneled by Mueller would have done something by now.

The grand jury is presumably "doing something," just not in public. They're hearing testimony and seeing evidence. They ain't leaking. Mueller's office ain't leaking. The grand jury will issue its findings when Mueller tells them to, not before. Patience, grasshopper...

 

[phrodeau]

I actually can't. My OS on this computer is so old that links crash my browser (Firefox 5.0)**. All I can do is go with what I hear from the news every day and try to remember what's been said.

Sometimes I misremember or forget things, but I still have the basics pretty firm in my head. Looking at the big picture, I'm not so certain that the hunt is for Manafort and/or Trump any longer. I don't know who they might be looking for/at but I have a feeling in the back of my head that Mueller isn't going to indict Manafort. Or Trump. There's no evidence of wrong doing. If there was, the Grand Jury the MSM say has been empaneled by Mueller would have done something by now.

In short, I don't believe there's evidence OR a Grand Jury.

Eventually indicting some foreign agent might happen. Who that would be I have no idea, but it's possible. But I don't see it happening to either Trump or Manafort.


**I have new hardware I can migrate into, but I'm working too much to download and install the OS image and export all my settings to the new system. I've trying to do that for over a year and not getting it done. I just don't have the time.

Have you tried a text-only add-on? https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/textise/#reviews

 

[Rightguide]

I'll quote this bit for you.

Mueller is already beyond his investigative mandate.

 

[Rightguide]

The Litwits are collectively losing their minds again. They’ve turned into a pack of hysterical hyenas whose hatred of Trump has turned into a brain disease.

Guys, your behavior is off the chain.

Take a good hard look at yourselves. It ain’t pretty.

They're too stupid to understand what this is all about, but they will in the very near future.

 

[Aglaopheme]

Mueller is already beyond his investigative mandate.

According to whom?

In appointing Mueller, however, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein gave him broad authority not only to investigate "any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated" with Trump's campaign, but also to examine "any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation."

Rosenstein also gave Mueller the power to investigate "any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a)" - including perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses.

"If we got a report that Mueller was investigating, say, the Trump University fraud case, that would signal that this is a roaming investigation with an axe to grind," said Andy Wright, a constitutional law expert and professor at Savannah Law School. "But everything we've seen so far in terms of what Mueller is looking at has had a nexus to the Russia investigation."

According to Bloomberg, the FBI is examining Russian purchases of Trump properties, Trump's relationship with a real estate company co-founded by a Russian-American businessman (who stands accused of using the firm to commit fraud), and Trump's sale of a Florida mansion to a Russian oligarch in 2008.

Mueller has shown no signs of veering outside the terms of his appointment, said Asha Rangappa, an associate dean at Yale Law School and former FBI special agent. But even if Mueller came across something potentially criminal that was beyond his scope, "it's not like he can just walk away from it."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/mueller-authority-russia-investigation-2017-7

 

[Aglaopheme]

They're too stupid to understand what this is all about, but they will in the very near future.

Like in a week from last March?

 

[thehaircutgirl]

They're too stupid to understand what this is all about, but they will in the very near future.

yes you and your racist climate denying trump loving friends are the smartest people in the room.

 

[adrina]

yes you and your racist climate denying trump loving friends are the smartest people in the room.

It's a very small room.

 

[thehaircutgirl]

It's a very small room.

their egos won't fit but their penises will.

 

[Wordsworth]

Given that the American intelligence services are clumsy enough to get caught spying on allied world leaders why does it surprise anyone that they would spy on their political foes?

 

[Hypoxia]

[oops]

 

[Hypoxia]

Given that the American intelligence services are clumsy enough to get caught spying on allied world leaders why does it surprise anyone that they would spy on their political foes?

If by that you mean Obama ordering tapping of TeamTromp, then it was a blown operation. The USA prez and his top spies and vast network of agents can't find or manufacture anything to use against Tromp? You believe that? If the Deep State really had it in for Tromp, and the Deep State is so powerful, how did they manage such a fuckup?

 

[HisArpy]

Well, that is a good thing to know. Without you being able to read links, I'm happy to say we shall just wait and see, rather than cut and paste. I feel that you are wrong. Just how good is that feeling in the back of your head? We should totally make a wager. Fair warning, I am horrible at making wagers unless they involve cards, or other forms of gaming.

It's actually pretty loud. The Ken Starr (?) investigation into Clinton took years and all they had to do was do a DNA test on the dress. Bill's depo and "it depends on what your definition of is, is" line helped his impeachment but wasn't necessary. All the evidence they needed was to test the spew on the dress and Monica's testimony.

Here they're running around demanding all kinds of documents from everywhere. Why? If Manafort was dirty dealing with the Russians his financial info would have shown it long before now. He has to file certain paperwork and he did that. So the watchdogs were already looking at his financial ties and there was nothing. Because it's not illegal to do business with Russia.

It's interesting that they've been looking at him for over a year now and STILL haven't come out and charged him with anything. Unmasking, phone taps, wire taps, evidence seized, financial scrutiny, and probably a ton of stuff we don't know anything about; yet, not one peep that he actually did something illegal. Where's THAT leak?

So now what is Team Mueller doing? Demanding docs from the WH about Comey's firing. How does that relate to Manafort? It doesn't. So, either there's more than 1 Russian collusion investigation going on by Mueller, or he's moved on from Manafort and is now looking at obstruction. Depending on who you talk to, Trump either did or didn't obstruct justice when he fired Comey based on partisan viewpoint analysis. Looking at the applicable statutes, I don't believe he did because he has the authority to do that. It might not look good, but he CAN fire the FBI Director at whim. But I am not above being accused of partisan views either.

Your blurb from the link was interesting but the IRS (remember that scandal?) has more than enough manpower to audit his tax returns and found nothing year after year after year despite him being in the opposition and dealing with Russia. So, given that he's been doing this for years, the Statute of Limitations thing is a talking point with no real substance. If he's dirty, then his taxes will show it every year and losing his 2011 returns as evidence means very little. AS an aside, how does Manafort doing (assumidly) dirty deals with the Russians in 2011 mean anything to the 2016 election cycle? do you suppose he had a crystal ball and KNEW he was going to be on the primary winner's campaign? 8 or 9 years before it happened? Incredible to say the least.

Last, I don't gamble. The odds are always with the house and that seems like cheating to me.

 

[Sean]

It's actually pretty loud. The Ken Starr investigation into Clinton took years and all they had to do was do a DNA test on the dress.

This is dumb even for Tim.

 

[HisArpy]

If by that you mean Obama ordering tapping of TeamTromp, then it was a blown operation. The USA prez and his top spies and vast network of agents can't find or manufacture anything to use against Tromp? You believe that? If the Deep State really had it in for Tromp, and the Deep State is so powerful, how did they manage such a fuckup?

I think you're looking at this from the wrong viewpoint. Not that they fucked up, that they got caught.

We know that the Obama admin used the IRS to target the opposition. Who was involved at the top is irrelevant, they DID IT for political purposes. That, to me, shows that they aren't above using the power of the Gov to intimidate or eliminate any opposing voice. It's proof enough, whether there's been a conviction or not, because it's so heinous and those involved lawyered up.

From there:

We know Susan Rice unmasked Trump's advisors when she really didn't have the authority to do so (because at the time she made the unmasking request she wasn't in the intel community or their oversight). Once again an abuse of the Gov power.

We know that there was a FISA warrant request against Trump that was denied. I can't say this was abuse but getting a FISA warrant denied is nearly unheard of. So, did they try to stretch their PC beyond what was allowable? Why? And for what purpose?

We know that a later FISA warrant which deleted Trump from the warrant request was granted. Which is proof of sorts that the Gov went too far. Is this an abuse of their power? Maybe. More than likely given their indicated tendencies but no real proof exists of this.

We know there were wire taps and stuff against Manafort. Including his office in Trump Tower. Where it's possible that Trump was caught in the recording. So, was Trump targeted obliquely since they couldn't surveil him directly? I have no idea but conspiracy theorists will say so. Sometimes they're even correct.

We also know that there was a FISA warrant that they executed and seized things from Manafort's home.

Given what we DO know, doesn't it strike you as a concerted effort to dig up something to charge Trump or someone on the Trump campaign with? Whether they are evil or not, that's a pretty small group to be doing all that activity with on the Fed and FISA level right at the critical time of the election. Why then and not years before?

If it's because you choose to believe Trump rigged the election with Russian help, then that's fine. I don't believe there's any evidence to show that, but if you want to, ok.

But your question was more about the keystone kops level of federal investigation in this case. I don't think they screwed up, I just don't think there was anything for them to find. So they kept having to go back and cover their tracks before looking under the next rock. Only to find nothing there either. Rinse and repeat. That's where it becomes the fiasco it is today.

Not because they were incompetent. But because there wasn't anything to find in the first place. They only looked because they couldn't afford to lose the election and were willing to gamble that they'd find something to defeat the GOP candidate with. That way Hill would win. So they used the power of the Gov. Again.

What's funny is, had they done this as a whisper campaign instead of using the FBI, they may have gotten away with it. Hubris sits and waits for us all.

 

[water505]

They're too stupid to understand what this is all about, but they will in the very near future.

It’s like Seinfeld...all about nothing.

I love reading the twerps’ predictions of impeachment and indictments.

 

[Hypoxia]

I think you're looking at this from the wrong viewpoint. Not that they fucked up, that they got caught.

But powerful and competent conspiracies don't get caught. If the Deep State possesses the powers attributed to it, it'll make clean hits and get away with no trace. A potent team would have destroyed Tromp. Nope; no Deep State exists.

 

[HisArpy]

But powerful and competent conspiracies don't get caught. If the Deep State possesses the powers attributed to it, it'll make clean hits and get away with no trace. A potent team would have destroyed Tromp. Nope; no Deep State exists.

This makes no sense. The best crime is one where no one else knows you committed it.

Yet in this case, everyone knew what the Gov was doing, supposedly in secret. Secret wire taps. Secret search warrants. Secret surveillance. Secret unmasking.

Then they denied doing it until they got caught in those lies too.

That doesn't sound like an organized effort to investigate crime. It sounds more like clandestine efforts to rig the election in their favor.

The deep state exists. They have immense power. However, they can't use it without eventually getting caught. This prevents most in the deep state from doing what they dream of doing - usurping power for themselves at the people's expense. It's only when they're desperate that they do this type of thing.

 

[Hypoxia]

Smart data-buggers (and lawyers) don't leave paper trails. A Deep State op wouldn't bother with FISA warrants. A Deep State wanting Tromp destroyed could certainly scan his files (including tax returns and Tromp.Org records) for incriminating info. If none is found, manufacture it. They wouldn't leave clumsy trails of emails, memos, warrant requests, etc detailing their illegal activities.

 

[doowdniw]

So who is in this "Deep State"? Can we get a name? Surely someone has a list of the members of this so called "Deep State"? Even the Illuminati has an official website.

 

[Hypoxia]

So who is in this "Deep State"? Can we get a name? Surely someone has a list of the members of this so called "Deep State"? Even the Illuminati has an official website.

Oh, they're so subtle.

The basis of deception is to construct an onion-like reality. Each layer of onionskin is embossed with into, all of it distracting and deceptive. Peel away the top layer to find another underneath. And another under that, and another -- till you've peeled away everything down to the center, to find nothing there. It was all a fraud. The real action is elsewhere.

Question is, is the Deep State within that onion, or another onion, or maybe stuck inside an artichoke -- same problem. Robert Anton Wilson noted that those peeling conspiracy onions tend to go insane. They're built that way.

 

[Aglaopheme]

It's actually pretty loud. The Ken Starr (?) investigation into Clinton took years and all they had to do was do a DNA test on the dress. Bill's depo and "it depends on what your definition of is, is" line helped his impeachment but wasn't necessary. All the evidence they needed was to test the spew on the dress and Monica's testimony.

Here they're running around demanding all kinds of documents from everywhere. Why? If Manafort was dirty dealing with the Russians his financial info would have shown it long before now. He has to file certain paperwork and he did that. So the watchdogs were already looking at his financial ties and there was nothing. Because it's not illegal to do business with Russia.

It's interesting that they've been looking at him for over a year now and STILL haven't come out and charged him with anything. Unmasking, phone taps, wire taps, evidence seized, financial scrutiny, and probably a ton of stuff we don't know anything about; yet, not one peep that he actually did something illegal. Where's THAT leak?

So now what is Team Mueller doing? Demanding docs from the WH about Comey's firing. How does that relate to Manafort? It doesn't. So, either there's more than 1 Russian collusion investigation going on by Mueller, or he's moved on from Manafort and is now looking at obstruction. Depending on who you talk to, Trump either did or didn't obstruct justice when he fired Comey based on partisan viewpoint analysis. Looking at the applicable statutes, I don't believe he did because he has the authority to do that. It might not look good, but he CAN fire the FBI Director at whim. But I am not above being accused of partisan views either.

Your blurb from the link was interesting but the IRS (remember that scandal?) has more than enough manpower to audit his tax returns and found nothing year after year after year despite him being in the opposition and dealing with Russia. So, given that he's been doing this for years, the Statute of Limitations thing is a talking point with no real substance. If he's dirty, then his taxes will show it every year and losing his 2011 returns as evidence means very little. AS an aside, how does Manafort doing (assumidly) dirty deals with the Russians in 2011 mean anything to the 2016 election cycle? do you suppose he had a crystal ball and KNEW he was going to be on the primary winner's campaign? 8 or 9 years before it happened? Incredible to say the least.

Last, I don't gamble. The odds are always with the house and that seems like cheating to me.

As you said, Ken Starr took years to build a case and he sure didn't wind up where he started.

Say what you will, but Manafort retroactively filed his paper work in June of this year. As for the IRS, I wholey reject your use of the word scandal. That has been debunked long ago. You're making an assumption that the IRS audited Manafort. Manafort' dealing with Russia mean a great deal if they continued while he was heading up the Trump campaign, the campaign that time and time again was favorable to the Russians, before the election i.e. the RNCs platform, to after the election.

Sure, Trump could fire Comey on a whim, but he cannot obstruct justice.

Of course the investigation goes beyond Manafort, as it should.

 

[Que]

As you said, Ken Starr took years to build a case and he sure didn't wind up where he started.

Say what you will, but Manafort retroactively filed his paper work in June of this year. As for the IRS, I wholey reject your use of the word scandal. That has been debunked long ago. You're making an assumption that the IRS audited Manafort. Manafort' dealing with Russia mean a great deal if they continued while he was heading up the Trump campaign, the campaign that time and time again was favorable to the Russians, before the election i.e. the RNCs platform, to after the election.

Sure, Trump could fire Comey on a whim, but he cannot obstruct justice.

Of course the investigation goes beyond Manafort, as it should.

"Debunked?"

You don't considered a scandal because you like the IRS being used to inhibit your political opponents.

You would scream bloody murder is Jeff Sessions sent the IRS after say Schumer, or opened up the books to Planned Parenthood.

There's nothing wrong with partisan promotion but you're being disingenuous here.