Society Standards Have Lowered

[ZipBlockBloodie]

Ya know there was a time period I feel like people were trying to better themselves and just be better people in general. Well fast forward to modern times, now I feel like the fine line between good and bad is becoming more and more gray it's not even morally ambiguous, it's just lets do bad stuff cause we can get away with it. Now I don't mind trying new things and ideas, but does anyone else feel that people have just given up and just said screw standards and morals and just gone ballistic.

I understand these are hard times but I feel like what use to be good is just looked down upon and just seeing as old ways. Especially with parents, they are having more and more kids and doing less to raise them in a somewhat good manner. This is more serious topic than I usually do but I think we need to have a discussion about it.

 

[teknight]

Imma get teknical on this:

Ya know there was a time period I feel like people were trying to better themselves and just be better people in general.

When was this?

Well fast forward to modern times, now I feel like the fine line between good and bad is becoming more and more gray it's not even morally ambiguous, it's just lets do bad stuff cause we can get away with it. Now I don't mind trying new things and ideas, but does anyone else feel that people have just given up and just said screw standards and morals and just gone ballistic.

But today we can speak of morals and standards. Back in the day it would have been a club to the back of the head, if not a knife to the throat.

I understand these are hard times but I feel like what use to be good is just looked down upon and just seeing as old ways. Especially with parents, they are having more and more kids and doing less to raise them in a somewhat good manner. This is more serious topic than I usually do but I think we need to have a discussion about it.

Are they really hard times? What are you comparing them to?

I'm not disagreeing with you, at most I'm playing 's advocate at this point.
I find that saying that the present is messed up generally leads to a comparison to a halcyon (idealized) past. And the past is easy to idealize- you can read about it in books, or get it on the history channel in easy to swallow 60 minute chunks. It's not like the hassle of day to day, where you have to question yourself, what's going on, and then the media gives you 50 different stories for everything that's allegedly gone. History's simple, even when it's controversial.

But, that's not what you were going for, was it?

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

Ya know there was a time period I feel like people were trying to better themselves and just be better people in general. .

You should really watch a movie called Idiocracy....

Well fast forward to modern times, now I feel like the fine line between good and bad is becoming more and more gray it's not even morally ambiguous, it's just lets do bad stuff cause we can get away with it. .

Morality is so subjective....some feel that being gay is an atrocity while others see no problem with incest as long as it is between two consenting adults, live and let live man. Is ending the life of another human being in a savage manner amoral? Some would say absolutely without exception, others would see great honor in dismembering an enemy combatant on the field of battle.

Now I don't mind trying new things and ideas, but does anyone else feel that people have just given up and just said screw standards and morals and just gone ballistic.

You only live once, so why not go for the midget tranny hooker that comes with a complementary 8 ball??

I understand these are hard times but I feel like what use to be good is just looked down upon and just seeing as old ways. Especially with parents, they are having more and more kids and doing less to raise them in a somewhat good manner. This is more serious topic than I usually do but I think we need to have a discussion about it

Again, who is to judge what is good or bad? religious leaders? politicians? your neighbor?? the HOA?? where dose it end....I grew up in an A typical middle class American family and ended up a professional killer for the US government, I have had a sexual relationship with my twin sister for the past 14 years and I have a soft spot for a 12+ y/o single malt scotch and a Marlboro red at 5AM before a 4mi run. Am I a bad person? Maybe but the real question is dose anyone actually give a shit...and the answer is no, cheers.

 

[teknight]

You should really watch a movie called Idiocracy....

Morality is so subjective....some feel that being gay is an atrocity while others see no problem with incest as long as it is between two consenting adults, live and let live man. Is ending the life of another human being in a savage manner amoral? Some would say absolutely without exception, others would see great honor in dismembering an enemy combatant on the field of battle.
</snip>

What else would you expect from a Wiggum supporter!

Actually, I agree, although, society does create and enforce some morals. Maybe we are becoming less anal, maybe we aren't aware of the shit we're still doing.

 

[ZipBlockBloodie]

Imma get teknical on this:

When was this?

Well maybe it's just me who feels this way.

 

[85Ironman]

Hey Zip -

Have they really lowered? Or does it appear that way because the media (especially lately with the proliferation of 24 hour tv and internet news) tends to focus on the worst in us and the most sensational stories to keep our attention?

Just a thought. Not necessarily even an opinion....

Nice thread idea, BTW.

 

[teknight]

Well maybe it's just me who feels this way.

Oh, come on now!
You wanted to get serious.
Any event, definitely any perception has two parties involved. The transmitter- the event itself, if you will, and the receiver, in this case, you. The information will be transmitted with noise- you don't have all the facts, all the viewpoints, you're not impartial (not you specifically, ZBH), and you interpret things through your own paradigm. It's not your fault or anything, everyone does it. Otherwise, we'd either be omniscient, and have nothing to discuss, or mindless...and we'd be discussing nothing.

If society has changed, which it surely has (although, the more things change...) what has it changed from?

 

[ZipBlockBloodie]

You should really watch a movie called Idiocracy....



Morality is so subjective....some feel that being gay is an atrocity while others see no problem with incest as long as it is between two consenting adults, live and let live man. Is ending the life of another human being in a savage manner amoral? Some would say absolutely without exception, others would see great honor in dismembering an enemy combatant on the field of battle.



You only live once, so why not go for the midget tranny hooker that comes with a complementary 8 ball??



Again, who is to judge what is good or bad? religious leaders? politicians? your neighbor?? the HOA?? where dose it end....I grew up in an A typical middle class American family and ended up a professional killer for the US government, I have had a sexual relationship with my twin sister for the past 14 years and I have a soft spot for a 12+ y/o single malt scotch and a Marlboro red at 5AM before a 4mi run. Am I a bad person? Maybe but the real question is dose anyone actually give a shit...and the answer is no, cheers.

Well this is interesting and of course what you do in own personal life is really none of my business, I appreciate you being this open. But about the killing thing is killing right or wrong? Well thats really hard to tell, do I think people like Hitler and Stalin should have suffered for what they did? Hell yeah I do, should I go around killing people cause Uncle Sam is paying me? In my personal opinion no. Money makes the world go round as they say and everyone needs food on the table so on and so forth. Me personally I don't think the Government works as it is but thats really getting into another discussion.

I've dicked around enough, but what I am trying to say is there is definitely something wrong with society cause as it is, it's not working.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

What else would you expect from a Wiggum supporter!

Actually, I agree, although, society does create and enforce some morals. Maybe we are becoming less anal, maybe we aren't aware of the shit we're still doing.

Well there are no doubt things that are universally abject in every society (I.E. murder, abuse/neglect against the weak and helpless, stealing etc) but a number of things that we in most modern industrialized society’s try and deem immoral (drugs, sex and rock n' roll) and thus attempt to regulate are a fucking joke.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

Well this is interesting and of course what you do in own personal life is really none of my business, I appreciate you being this open. But about the killing thing is killing right or wrong? Well thats really hard to tell, do I think people like Hitler and Stalin should have suffered for what they did? Hell yeah I do, should I go around killing people cause Uncle Sam is paying me? In my personal opinion no. Money makes the world go round as they say and everyone needs food on the table so on and so forth. Me personally I don't think the Government works as it is but thats really getting into another discussion.

I've dicked around enough, but what I am trying to say is there is definitely something wrong with society cause as it is, it's not working.

You should really go take a sociology class....and I don't mean that in a condecending manner. I mean it as in

1) you sound like you might enjoy it

2) it will help you to understand the changes as well as the constants within any given society and why they are not really what you think they are. (i.e. Morals and morality are nothing more than what society has told you they are)

and 3) you might find a lot of answers to the questions you are asking, just know you will have 10x more questions at the end of class if your proff is worth a rats ass.
just an idea.

 

[ZipBlockBloodie]

Hey Zip -

Have they really lowered? Or does it appear that way because the media (especially lately with the proliferation of 24 hour tv and internet news) tends to focus on the worst in us and the most sensational stories to keep our attention?

Just a thought. Not necessarily even an opinion....

Nice thread idea, BTW.

Well I think with each generation more and more bad is happening than good.

 

[mizzmaree]

Ethics and the concept of honor

are not valued on as broad a scale as they were probably 50 years ago.

There is merit to the idea that we idealize the past (history is written by the victors - we all know that) but even so, the empirical evidence does point to a decline.

30 odd years ago, my mother picked up hitchhikers, with her daughters in the car.

I was allowed to walk 5 miles home from school. Just because I wanted to. On the main highway.

We didn't know where the key was to the front door. It was never locked.

After coming home from school, I could go out. I had to leave a note on the counter. I had to come home 3 hours later. I had a range of about 3 miles to play. Beaches, forests, houses being built, ravines, creeks. I climbed trees 20 feet up. Built forts and playhouses. Explored tidepools. I'm pretty sure the only rules were don't be alone, and never turn your back on the sea.

The cars were never locked. Sometimes the keys were left in them too.

How many of you would feel safe doing anything close? Let your children? I want to. I really want to trust that others will respect my personal space and safety. But we all know that it is foolish to believe that everything will be fine if we follow those behaviors.

I want to be the kind of person who can pick up a hitchhiker. I'm that brave maybe once every couple of years. Never with my kids.

They have cellphones. I have to know where they are. Yes, they get to go explore, just as I did. But they set their own personal boundaries at about 1-2 hours, and less than a half mile. I'm sad that I'm okay with it.

My door is locked. My car has been broken into in my driveway. It's always locked.

*sorry, bit rambly there*

Ethics - personal standards that ensure fairness and rightness. Every time. Do you make an effort to return lost items? Even if you aren't sure who the owner is?

Honor - is your word your bond? Are you really on time when you say you will be? Do you remember what your commitments are and keep to them? Even the little ones?

I look forward to this discussion.

~~ Mizz Maree ~~

 

[85Ironman]

Well there are no doubt things that are universally abject in every society (I.E. murder, abuse/neglect against the weak and helpless, stealing etc) but a number of things that we in most modern industrialized society’s try and deem immoral (drugs, sex and rock n' roll) and thus attempt to regulate are a fucking joke.

Actually, in some cultures, murder is acceptable. Honor killings in remote fundamentalist Islamic areas, for example.

 

[ZipBlockBloodie]

You should really go take a sociology class....and I don't mean that in a condecending manner. I mean it as in

1) you sound like you might enjoy it

2) it will help you to understand the changes as well as the constants within any given society and why they are not really what you think they are. (i.e. Morals and morality are nothing more than what society has told you they are)

and 3) you might find a lot of answers to the questions you are asking, just know you will have 10x more questions at the end of class if your proff is worth a rats ass.
just an idea.

Well I am taking a Criminal Justice Class and they've talked a lot about this type of stuff and I a hoping to get this Security job ( I am working in retail right now and it sucks).

 

[teknight]

Well I think with each generation more and more bad is happening than good.

But, each generation nowadays is larger than the previous one. Overall, you'd get more bad even if the percentages stayed the same for good/bad.

Besides, we've not blown ourselves up yet, despite having had the option for 65 years now. I'd say that's some kind of progress.

 

[ZipBlockBloodie]

Oh, come on now!
You wanted to get serious.
Any event, definitely any perception has two parties involved. The transmitter- the event itself, if you will, and the receiver, in this case, you. The information will be transmitted with noise- you don't have all the facts, all the viewpoints, you're not impartial (not you specifically, ZBH), and you interpret things through your own paradigm. It's not your fault or anything, everyone does it. Otherwise, we'd either be omniscient, and have nothing to discuss, or mindless...and we'd be discussing nothing.

If society has changed, which it surely has (although, the more things change...) what has it changed from?

Oh I am getting serious don't worry, see with me I might take my time with answers I like to think a lot before jumping in to answer. I guess it all depends on how you are raised and what you see and go through in life.

 

[ZipBlockBloodie]

But, each generation nowadays is larger than the previous one. Overall, you'd get more bad even if the percentages stayed the same for good/bad.

Besides, we've not blown ourselves up yet, despite having had the option for 65 years now. I'd say that's some kind of progress.

It's progression yeah, but I feel like we are headed in a bad place not to be negative or anything.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

Actually, in some cultures, murder is acceptable. Honor killings in remote fundamentalist Islamic areas, for example.

With 4 years spent deployed I was witness to more than 1 "Honor Killing" and they are not seen as murder but a form of justice just like our forms of capitol punishment. Not that I agree with them but once again, who am I to judge what other cultures may see as a capital offence? In Thailand they will cain the shit out of you in public for littering, cleanest streets I have ever seen in a major city.

 

[85Ironman]

With 4 years spent deployed I was witness to more than 1 "Honor Killing" and they are not seen as murder but a form of justice just like our forms of capitol punishment. Not that I agree with them but once again, who am I to judge what other cultures may see as a capital offence? In Thailand they will cain the shit out of you in public for littering, cleanest streets I have ever seen in a major city.

You're making my (rather discreet) point. In some cultures - the one you witnessed deployed (thank you for your service, BTW) for example - murder is OK. They call it something else. So what. A rose is a rose.

 

[sweetctgirl]

You should really go take a sociology class....and I don't mean that in a condecending manner. I mean it as in

1) you sound like you might enjoy it

2) it will help you to understand the changes as well as the constants within any given society and why they are not really what you think they are. (i.e. Morals and morality are nothing more than what society has told you they are)

and 3) you might find a lot of answers to the questions you are asking, just know you will have 10x more questions at the end of class if your proff is worth a rats ass.
just an idea.

I have to respectfully disagree to some extent with the bolded part Frizzle. I believe it's not all about what society in general teaches us, but rather our parents or people that directly impact/influence our lives. And here's why...

I grew up in apartheid era South Africa. Society taught us that people had less rights as a human being based on the color of their skin. My parents taught me it was wrong to judge someone by that, but rather that I should accept them for who they were as people and THAT'S the lesson I learned.

Then during my teenage years, apartheid ended and we went through a time of reconciliation and being taught that we were all equal. Society told us that and did everything they could to make us believe it and live it. Yet some parents still taught their kids that being black or white was bad (depending on which side of the line they were on), because that's what they had learned as kids - that's what they lived.

So now we have newer generations who are given equal opportunities (i.e. not judged on the color of their skin), and who were born AFTER apartheid ended, that still hold on to the old black/white thing. They had absolutely no part of it, yet still feel the anger/frustration/hatred their parents had because that's what they learned and lived from their parents.

As for the morals that society does teach us. Those would be the laws that we have to live by. That's the way society influences our moral compass. But that's only part of it. The rest of it is all subjective and is a sliding scale based on how we grew up and most importantly, with whom and what THEIR beliefs were.

Zippy... I think all that we see that's so called "wrong" in this world has been happening for hundreds of years. What's different now is our exposure to it. The more we hear about it, the more de-sensitized we become to it, so it loses its shock factor and somewhere in the mix our perception of things change.

Personally, I do believe, that in teaching people to fight for their rights and stand up for themselves, in some ways we've gone to the extreme and now some believe they're "entitled" to things. I also think that there's less respect for others. I think people mistake respect for only meaning that you like someone, but respect is more than that. Generally speaking (for me) it means that I acknowledge and therefore respect that you're as much part of this world as I am. I don't have to like you or even agree with you, but you're here and that's that.

Who am I to judge someone else? Who says I'm better than them? Who am I to tell them what's right and wrong? Yes, we have laws, and I believe they are necessary because we need some accountability (a lawless society would be a crazy, scary place), but why does it have to go beyond that? I cannot change those around me, all I can do is change myself. We have a choice in life. We always have a choice! We can either deliberately subject ourselves to people who have a different "belief" system or morals than us and let that drive us crazy, or we can choose to step back and say enough is enough and find those we have more in common with.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

I have to respectfully disagree to some extent with the bolded part Frizzle. I believe it's not all about what society in general teaches us, but rather our parents or people that directly impact/influence our lives. And here's why...

And that is getting into the big grey area between sociology/psycology....

psycology because your sense of morals and values (ego/super ego) usually come about by what your parents tell you when you are a bitty thing.

Sociology says that society at large influences if not dictates the morals and values your parents pass to you, and as you age and society changes so will your sense of morals and values that you will pass to your children who as adults will most likely adopt their own sense of morality in accordance with the society they live in.

 

[teknight]

And that is getting into the big grey area between sociology/psycology....

psycology because your sense of morals and values (ego/super ego) usually come about by what your parents tell you when you are a bitty thing.

Sociology says that society at large influences if not dictates the morals and values your parents pass to you, and as you age and society changes so will your sense of morals and values that you will pass to your children who as adults will most likely adopt their own sense of morality in accordance with the society they live in.

Can we keep Dr Fraud/Freud out of this, please? Besides, the ego's this little sliver of psych that balances between the superego ideal and the id animal. And it's all crap theory. Makes for nice stories, and shitty therapy.

Besides, wouldn't it be more community specific than society at large?

 

[janeyl]

The Pope blames the curse of secularism...ironic that a man who sits at the head of an organisation that has systematically oppressed, tortured and disenfranchised people for centuries says that because I am an atheist, it means I am a bad person who cannot possibly know the difference between right and wrong...

but then I don't want to turn this into a religious debate-we all know where that gets us...

I have my thoughts on this but I don't really like them-they battle something fundamental inside me and I can't quite come to terms with them so won't share them here

 

[85Ironman]

The Pope blames the curse of secularism...ironic that a man who sits at the head of an organisation that has systematically oppressed, tortured and disenfranchised people for centuries says that because I am an atheist, it means I am a bad person who cannot possibly know the difference between right and wrong...

but then I don't want to turn this into a religious debate-we all know where that gets us...

I have my thoughts on this but I don't really like them-they battle something fundamental inside me and I can't quite come to terms with them so won't share them here

Janey, you are such a tease.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

Can we keep Dr Fraud/Freud out of this, please? Besides, the ego's this little sliver of psych that balances between the superego ideal and the id animal. And it's all crap theory. Makes for nice stories, and shitty therapy.

Besides, wouldn't it be more community specific than society at large?

I agree about Dr.Fraud because I dislike psychology as a whole but the development of a child’s sense of right/wrong always leads to a discussion about his id/ego/superego theory (psychic apparatus) or is at least mentioned in just about every discipline of social science so that’s why I brought it up.

Before I go any further I would like to brief and generalized deff of "society" in academic terms because there have been books the size of the L.A. yellow pages written about what exactly society is and where it exist. So I just pulled this short deff out of my text book.

"A human society is characterized by patterns of relationships between individuals sharing distinctive political, geographical, economic, religious and cultural institutions. Without an article, the term refers either to the entirety of humanity or a contextually specific subset of people
"

That being said everyone belongs to a number of specific societies and their role in each one will vary from one society to another along with their behavior.

I.E. a 32 y/o father of two is a deacon at his church, a marine drill Instructor at work and a part time student at the local uni. How different do you think his behavior will be in each setting? Very different because his role in each society has it's own guidelines for power, privilege, deviance etc. and those guidelines will dictate a persons behavior. Sorry for the rant but the context of this discussion is absalutely enormous.