Spivak Pronouns

[wolf2002]

Sorry, it was just an attempt to a joke... next time I add the appropriate emoticon...

But like James I am rather curious what you mean by gender play.

Etoile, do I sense a little annoyance over all the references to your Daddy's - sorry: eir - genitals?

 

[Etoile]

Personally, Etoile, I read WOlf's question as one of a genuine lack of understanding
Were I know more familiar with the type of play you engage in with your Daddy, I might've asked the same thing

I do have to say tho, the choice of the words "making a crack" seems to REALLY be a bad one in context LOL

doh! I hadn't caught that.

I have no problem with Wolf asking it as a serious question; the answer I gave was supposed to be serious too - I just didn't know whether it was an actual question or not!

 

[James G 5]

doh! I hadn't caught that.

I have no problem with Wolf asking it as a serious question; the answer I gave was supposed to be serious too - I just didn't know whether it was an actual question or not!

That's why I'm here...to help


And I think Wolf, as he stated in his follow up post, was serious

 

[FungiUg]

That's why I'm here...to help

Oh? And here I was thinking you were her for entirely different reasons...

 

[Etoile]

Not to bump a really old thread or anything, but this article gives excellent information on why people choose to use Spivak pronouns. LambdaMOO is, in fact, the community where I first encountered them; I've been there for about six and a half years now.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

my two cents:

while the spivak words arent something ill be using in everyday life, because i just dont really see it as necessary..i just think its kind of-well put it this way, i dont get the point of saying "Im not male, im not female, so call me em and eir when you refer to me". just not something i get. BUT-if im replying to a post of Etoile's i have no problem using them if im referring to her Daddy. as someone else said in another thread, it obviously was important enough to her for her to put it in her sig-i can at least try to use them when replying to her, about em. (did i do it right? )

 

[Bitchslapper]

Perhpas I'm being too technical, but I would like to point out that male and female are not merely two gender groups imposed upon us by society, it's a biological fact. Humans are a bipolar species. A human is either male or female, anatomically speaking (unless you are a hermaphrodite, and I'm not even sure that actually happens).

I submit that any other concepts of gender are those that are created by humans (rather than bipolarity) and assigned to someone, Spivak pronouns being just one instance of this.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

(unless you are a hermaphrodite, and I'm not even sure that actually happens).

.

it happens. search kazaa for "hermaphrodite".i did that once and downloaded a couple videos with actual hermaphrodites in them.

 

[Bitchslapper]

it happens. search kazaa for "hermaphrodite".i did that once and downloaded a couple videos with actual hermaphrodites in them.

Um...I'll just take your word for it.

 

[Etoile]

my two cents:

while the spivak words arent something ill be using in everyday life, because i just dont really see it as necessary..i just think its kind of-well put it this way, i dont get the point of saying "Im not male, im not female, so call me em and eir when you refer to me". just not something i get. BUT-if im replying to a post of Etoile's i have no problem using them if im referring to her Daddy. as someone else said in another thread, it obviously was important enough to her for her to put it in her sig-i can at least try to use them when replying to her, about em. (did i do it right? )

Thanks, ssp! I appreciate your willingness to use them as I do. Yes, you did it exactly right!

One thing I do want to note is that Spivak pronouns aren't necessarily always used for somebody who is neither male nor female. They can be used for somebody whose gender is not known. For example, my Daddy might be male OR female, but I don't want to disclose Daddy's RL gender, so I could use Spivak pronouns. (This is just an example of how they can be used.)

 

[sweetnpetite]

Well, I figured, as long as people are just making up language as they go along....what a stupid, stupid concept.

ever hear of the word 'goop'?

Somebody just made it up. (His name was Gellete Burgess btw)

Sometimes that *is* how language works.

World Wide Web: now that's stupid, there's no sticky string forming pretty shapes and trapping flies on the internet.

The Information Superhighway? Now that ones really really stupid. Give me a break, no one's really going to actually use that phrase are they?

cyber sex/phone sex: how the hell can you have sex without even being in the same room as someone. What a stupid, stupid concept.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Anther time one might use spivak pronouns is to avoid having to say "he or she" such as when you are talking about a general situation, ie. 'how to find a good doctor' or 'how to help your toddler sleep through the night.' Also, when you are talking about people in general, people often misuse the language by using a plural 'they' rather than the more cumbersom, he or she, him or her. ie- 'when a person goes fishing, they should use natural bait' is incorrect. using a spivak pronoun would prevent a person from having to say, "he or she should use natural bait" or just using 'he' which at one time would have been considered 'universal' but now would generally be considered sexist language. So you can see there are plenty of good reasons for spivak, even if you don't agree with Etoile's personal reasoning.

I myself am hoping that it will catch on (not just lit, but everywere) I myself had thought that we needed this type of pronoun and had proposed "him, her, aft, and orft" with aft meaning having qualities of both sexes (ie, hermafrodites) and orft for cases were the gender is not specific (could be either) This was all before I had heard of spivak. I think that these new words are neccesary, language is supposed to grow. It's impossible to understand something without having words for it. Language forms and shapes our thoughts. I guess some don't want to expand there minds, or there vocabularies. Oh well.

Thanks, ssp! I appreciate your willingness to use them as I do. Yes, you did it exactly right!

One thing I do want to note is that Spivak pronouns aren't necessarily always used for somebody who is neither male nor female. They can be used for somebody whose gender is not known. For example, my Daddy might be male OR female, but I don't want to disclose Daddy's RL gender, so I could use Spivak pronouns. (This is just an example of how they can be used.)

 

[south_florida_bicur]

We all should support Etoile in her desicion and learn from her. I for one knows absolutely nothing about Spivak but I am always yearning for new knowledge.

The article that she has linked by Sue Thomas is very detailed and I am in the process of reading it now. So far I find it interesting. It might take me a while to get the hang of it but it is worth the time and effort.

 

[Mamid]

I was told almost a decade ago that the proper gender neutral terms were hir hit hirs.

But, the spivak ones seem to make better sense.

After all, english is a living language and it sneaks up behind other languages in dark alleys, wacks them over their head and goes through their pockets for interesting bits of grammer.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

After all, english is a living language and it sneaks up behind other languages in dark alleys, wacks them over their head and goes through their pockets for interesting bits of grammer.

That is officially the best depiction of the English language that I have ever heard. Thank you.

 

[Xelebes]

Here are how they are used:
subject: I - you - he - she - e
object: me - you - him - her - em
possessive: my/mine - your/yours/ - his - hers - eir/eirs
reflexive: myself - yourself - himself - herself - emself
...and so on.

So from now on, this is how I'll be referring to my Daddy. Just so you're aware.

Those look just like how American's somewhat pronounce 'em.

Personally, I'd be inclined to put an apostrophe before those pronouns because it looks more natural and less hurried/lazy/conspicuous.

 

[Xelebes]

Hm... they sound wrong and don't seem to roll of the tongue as well. I find using plurals do sound better and are in fact proper English, linguistically, if not grammatically.

Just remember, there is a war with the grammarian and the linguist. I personally side with the linguist. If it doesn't sound natural to the tongue, screw it.

 

[Etoile]

I was told almost a decade ago that the proper gender neutral terms were hir hit hirs.

But, the spivak ones seem to make better sense.

There is no "proper" really...there is no standard accepted set of gender neutral pronouns, so anything that gets invented can get used.

 

[Etoile]

Re: Re: Spivak Pronouns

Those look just like how American's somewhat pronounce 'em.

Personally, I'd be inclined to put an apostrophe before those pronouns because it looks more natural and less hurried/lazy/conspicuous.

Ah, but 'em is short for them.

 

[redcatty]

Fascinating thread

I think lit should be part of my degree it (hopefully) massively improves my understanding of the world...

I think the dicussions have been in the main interesting,
I'm guessing there is not many people from the North of England (as in the proper country in the UK) and especially Yorkshire post on here...The spivak pronouns work written for me, but i'd struggle with them verbally, but then as someone already said thats my problem. so as long as people can help me understand I'll have a go at understanding anything...

So in other words, thanks for the informative discussion folks, and I like the link off this about peoplesexual too...

 

[Etoile]

I think lit should be part of my degree it (hopefully) massively improves my understanding of the world...

I think the dicussions have been in the main interesting,
I'm guessing there is not many people from the North of England (as in the proper country in the UK) and especially Yorkshire post on here...The spivak pronouns work written for me, but i'd struggle with them verbally, but then as someone already said thats my problem. so as long as people can help me understand I'll have a go at understanding anything...

So in other words, thanks for the informative discussion folks, and I like the link off this about peoplesexual too...

An excellent point! I do feel a little funny using Spivak pronouns in voice conversation, just because they're unfamiliar words. And you're welcome, glad you could learn something

 

[pinkstarfish]

Good book

Jeanette Winterson's Written on the Body is a novel, and the narrator's gender is never revealed. Eir partner is female, but we don't ever find out what the narrator might be.

Yeah, but you can tell it's a woman.

 

[Etoile]

Yeah, but you can tell it's a woman.

I'm not sure that I agree, but out of curiosity what makes you think so?

 

[chris9]

Glad this thread is up again and I found it. I have been wondering a couple of times about your pronouns. First I thought mistyping, but so often? Makes sense, thanks for explaining.