Tell me about Catholicism

[Netzach]

Catholics have the best toys.

Trading cards, incense, wine, magic people you ask for specific favors because they're all specialists, amulets, even.

If we went all 1492 for some reason and I *had* to convert it's the only thing I'd consider. Because as much as I reject it, religion should be magic and law.

(And I actually am being flip, but sort of not. I'm a Catholic fan of sorts. I know more than most people who are not Catholic, even read St. Augustine.)

 

[midwestyankee]

Catholics have the best toys.

Trading cards, incense, wine, magic people you ask for specific favors because they're all specialists, amulets, even.

If we went all 1492 for some reason and I *had* to convert it's the only thing I'd consider. Because as much as I reject it, religion should be magic and law.

(And I actually am being flip. I know more than most people who are not Catholic, even read St. Augustine.)

Don't forget the incense and the wild clothing worn by the tribal elders when they lead the masses in worship. Especially the hats. Gotta love the hats.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, you need hats and anti-fashion outfits.

I also have to say I dig the Marian aspect that some Catholics groove on a lot, I mean *I* don't have any female role models that close to the Divine.

There's also liberation theology, which the mainstream Church has big issues with, but I love, and could only have come from Catholicism. And there's Jesuits. Jesuits are insanely cool.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Yes, you need hats and anti-fashion outfits.

I also have to say I dig the Marian aspect that some Catholics groove on a lot, I mean *I* don't have any female role models that close to the Divine.

There's also liberation theology, which the mainstream Church has big issues with, but I love, and could only have come from Catholicism. And there's Jesuits. Jesuits are insanely cool.

And Jesuits are sloppy record keepers.

 

[Netzach]

And Jesuits are sloppy record keepers.

True that. I mean your modern Fordham prof, rather than your Black Robe missionary type, but good point.

 

[Netzach]

Easy...feel guily about anything which feels good other than worship of the church and it's beliefs and you were most likely raised to be Catholic.

Is that really worse than feeling guilty about anything to do with your family?

I'd be good at this.

 

[chauderlos]

Bravo. Best single piece of information here.

*bows* Thank you, Mr Homburg.

For those who are interested in the position of the Church regarding love and sex (eros and agape) can read the encyclical Deus Caritas Est, especially the first part.

 

[Netzach]

Indeed: see Matthew 28:19-20. But form what I see around me, the Church is more on more trying to understand and to accept people than trying to convert them by force.



This applies to Protestantism as well.

As for the core of Catholicism, I think it's well summed up in the Credo; which by the way is common to most of the Christian churches:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day He rose again.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic* Church,
the communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.
(* Catholic is of course changed into "universal" for non-Catholic churches).

I was raised a Lutheran, converted to Catholicism when I married my wife (note to self: who else could you have married???), and I feel comfortable there. As others have said, the pomp, the rituals, the moment of calm I feel when attending Mass provides, make me feel good and gives me fuel for the week to come.
I well aware that some of my personal beliefs (believes?) are in contradiction with the "official" teachings of the Holy See, be it same-sex marriage, sex outside marriage, condoms... But then, one shall live with his contradictions.

I don't think a lot of US Christians (and that means Catholic and Protestant, you internecine squabblers) have any idea how to live with their contradictions let alone other people's - and I don't think that we've had as much firsthand experience as Europe in what happens when you get literal and take it to the Government. Lots of people usually die. This is basically the only way to be moral, religious, and function in a pluralistic society - to accept your faith as a personal road map and a model for your world not a model for THE world.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Is that really worse than feeling guilty about anything to do with your family?

I'd be good at this.

LOL You so funny.

On an unrelated to you note: I've been a Catholic since the day I was born. I've never felt anymore guilt about anything than the average person does. That stereotype doesn't really fly. In fact, most comments made in this thread are not really accurate to the average Catholic.

And a couple of them have offended me.

I live by KC's post. Religion is personal. I don't comment on anyone's faith here.

 

[midwestyankee]

*bows* Thank you, Mr Homburg.

For those who are interested in the position of the Church regarding love and sex (eros and agape) can read the encyclical Deus Caritas Est, especially the first part.

Thank you for linking to the English version. My Latin is more than a tad rusty.

 

[midwestyankee]

LOL You so funny.

On an unrelated to you note: I've been a Catholic since the day I was born. I've never felt anymore guilt about anything than the average person does. That stereotype doesn't really fly. In fact, most comments made in this thread are not really accurate to the average Catholic.

And a couple of them have offended me.

I live by KC's post. Religion is personal. I don't comment on anyone's faith here.

ADR, I can only comment based on my own experience of learning Catholicism in an immigrant family and from the nuns and folks who taught my weekly CCD classes. Installation of guilt was an overriding methodology, rivalled only by the fear of eternal damnation, used to inculcate us into the beliefs and traditions of the church. I am not at all surprised by the American church's history of high levels of attrition over the last few decades despite the generally attractive changes brought about by Vatican II.

 

[Netzach]

LOL You so funny.

On an unrelated to you note: I've been a Catholic since the day I was born. I've never felt anymore guilt about anything than the average person does. That stereotype doesn't really fly. In fact, most comments made in this thread are not really accurate to the average Catholic.

And a couple of them have offended me.

I live by KC's post. Religion is personal. I don't comment on anyone's faith here.

I hope the toys and magic didn't offend you. I've got toys and magic now, and rules about when you can eat bread and not and lighting candles and not turning on lights, most of which I totally flagrantly ignore, but I just like having them.

I think that would make sense to a lot of Catholics. Whether the rules are followed to the letter or not, you just feel better about having them than not.

 

[Netzach]

ADR, I can only comment based on my own experience of learning Catholicism in an immigrant family and from the nuns and folks who taught my weekly CCD classes. Installation of guilt was an overriding methodology, rivalled only by the fear of eternal damnation, used to inculcate us into the beliefs and traditions of the church. I am not at all surprised by the American church's history of high levels of attrition over the last few decades despite the generally attractive changes brought about by Vatican II.

Could the guilt thing have something to do with ethnicity and its dovetailing with religion?

I mean there are certain ethnic groups who seem to work the angle better than others.

 

[A Desert Rose]

ADR, I can only comment based on my own experience of learning Catholicism in an immigrant family and from the nuns and folks who taught my weekly CCD classes. Installation of guilt was an overriding methodology, rivalled only by the fear of eternal damnation, used to inculcate us into the beliefs and traditions of the church. I am not at all surprised by the American church's history of high levels of attrition over the last few decades despite the generally attractive changes brought about by Vatican II.

And maybe all that guilt 'teaching' worked on you. I feel no more guilt than the average person feels. I came from an immigrant Italian family and I went to Catholic school. I'm sorry that I don't feel the amount of guilt I'm supposed to. But I don't feel guilty about that, either. LOL

When I feel the need, I make amends and I do penance. That works for me.

And with that, see ya! ;-)

 

[A Desert Rose]

I hope the toys and magic didn't offend you. I've got toys and magic now, and rules about when you can eat bread and not and lighting candles and not turning on lights, most of which I totally flagrantly ignore, but I just like having them.

I think that would make sense to a lot of Catholics. Whether the rules are followed to the letter or not, you just feel better about having them than not.

No. You never offend me. ;-)

 

[chauderlos]

I don't think a lot of US Christians (and that means Catholic and Protestant, you internecine squabblers) have any idea how to live with their contradictions let alone other people's - and I don't think that we've had as much firsthand experience as Europe in what happens when you get literal and take it to the Government. Lots of people usually die. This is basically the only way to be moral, religious, and function in a pluralistic society - to accept your faith as a personal road map and a model for your world not a model for THE world.

A personal road map, very well said. I don't pretend that "my" faith is better than any other, nor do I judge the ones that do not believe, or belive differently.

What annoys me, and sometimes angers me, is the fact that ignorance leads so often to misinterpretations and stupid judgments. Just as stating that all Muslims are terrorists or that the Jews are God-killers is stupid, seeing all Catholics and prudes and sex-only-to-procreate (and in the dark) is stupid.

Thank you for linking to the English version. My Latin is more than a tad rusty.

You're welcome. The Latin version is to be found here. You'll translate the 3 first pragraphs of tomorrow. I'll pick up your home work at 8. Right after matins.

 

[Netzach]

Thank you for linking to the English version. My Latin is more than a tad rusty.

Benedict flubbed the point of the shema as anyone who went to Hebrew school for five minutes can tell you - we're not being commanded to love, we're being reminded daily that there's only ONE G badass enough to be G. That you love Him with all your mind heart and soul is a foregone conclusion from that, it would seem.

It makes me really crawly to see that we're still being painted as this robotic people who don't love unless we're told to. And who somehow missed the memo on charity? more than Catholics? I think not.

But that's what I get for reading press releases.

 

[Netzach]

A personal road map, very well said. I don't pretend that "my" faith is better than any other, nor do I judge the ones that do not believe, or belive differently.

What annoys me, and sometimes angers me, is the fact that ignorance leads so often to misinterpretations and stupid judgments. Just as stating that all Muslims are terrorists or that the Jews are God-killers is stupid, seeing all Catholics and prudes and sex-only-to-procreate (and in the dark) is stupid.

The very existence of France and the entire Latin world, would imply a level of contradiction with that thought, eh?

 

[midwestyankee]

Could the guilt thing have something to do with ethnicity and its dovetailing with religion?

I mean there are certain ethnic groups who seem to work the angle better than others.

Possibly. My own family was French Canadian but we attended an Irish parish. It's entirely possible that the Irish clergy and Irish lay teachers had something to do with the degree to which guilt was used as a methodology of socialization.

That said, I stopped feeling guilty about my behaviors vis à vis Catholic teachings the day that the priest could not give me a proper answer about predestination. My take was that I had no reason to follow any of the teachings of a faith that could not produce clergy capable of rebutting a fourth grader.

 

[chauderlos]

The very existence of France and the entire Latin world, would imply a level of contradiction with that thought, eh?

Sorry, Netz, but I'm either too tired or over-rating my English abilities here - But I don't see your point, hence I don't know what to answer.

 

[Netzach]

Possibly. My own family was French Canadian but we attended an Irish parish. It's entirely possible that the Irish clergy and Irish lay teachers had something to do with the degree to which guilt was used as a methodology of socialization.

That said, I stopped feeling guilty about my behaviors vis à vis Catholic teachings the day that the priest could not give me a proper answer about predestination. My take was that I had no reason to follow any of the teachings of a faith that could not produce clergy capable of rebutting a fourth grader.

You sound exactly like H, who had a Jewish dad, and an Irish Catholic mom, and whose school was via Irish nuns. This was the 60's - so hopefully the existence of dinosaurs is no longer "the devil put those bones in the ground to confuse us" - but it was then. That made him bail, mentally.

Let me be clear that I don't think secular schools were much better at handling grade school children's questions at this point!

 

[Netzach]

Sorry, Netz, but I'm either too tired or over-rating my English abilities here - But I don't see your point, hence I don't know what to answer.

Oh, the French and those of Latin descent are sometimes accused of being sexy passionate and hot-blooded by the rest of the world. To mixed accuracy, I'm sure, but there are worse things to be accused of.

 

[midwestyankee]

You sound exactly like H, who had a Jewish dad, and an Irish Catholic mom, and whose school was via Irish nuns. This was the 60's - so hopefully the existence of dinosaurs is no longer "the devil put those bones in the ground to confuse us" - but it was then. That made him bail, mentally.

Exactly, though my quibble was with the inherent contradiction between God being all knowing and at the same time the giver of free will. Yes, to all those who want to dispute me on this, I now know that Aquinas and others did a decent job of reconciling this contradiction but none of those arguments that I read later fully persuaded me. Besides, on a practical level the church never lived up to its ideals or its promise.

 

[chauderlos]

Oh, the French and those of Latin descent are sometimes accused of being sexy passionate and hot-blooded by the rest of the world. To mixed accuracy, I'm sure, but there are worse things to be accused of.

*smile* I see... thank you for taking time to explain.

Ask, and you shall recieve...

 

[Homburg]

What annoys me, and sometimes angers me, is the fact that ignorance leads so often to misinterpretations and stupid judgments. Just as stating that all Muslims are terrorists or that the Jews are God-killers is stupid, seeing all Catholics and prudes and sex-only-to-procreate (and in the dark) is stupid.

My gal, born and raised Catholic, and (largely) guiltlessly sexual for as long as I've known her, would probably agree with you there.

--------

That said, I stopped feeling guilty about my behaviors vis à vis Catholic teachings the day that the priest could not give me a proper answer about predestination. My take was that I had no reason to follow any of the teachings of a faith that could not produce clergy capable of rebutting a fourth grader.

I never had any faith as a kid, but I finally decided that it wasn't even worth faking interest for my mom's sake around 2nd grade or so when I did the same thing to the Sunday School teacher. Admittedly, she wasn't the pastor, and I hope he could've answered whatever question my little mind had come up with. I don't even recall the conversation, but I remember the room, and I remember walking out with a profound sense of disdain and telling my mom that I wasn't interested in going back.

"Great Lao Tze confounded by the questions of a dolt"