The Left's Dark Alliance With Islam

[BrightShinyGirl]

No I certainly didn't.
You did.

Am I to take it that your ability to 'read minds' and 'predict the future' are now also "objective facts" that you wish to be given credence?

But back to mathematics, otherwise known as the topic I originally commented upon, though I would have sympathy with anyone who by now had forgotten that.

Obfuscation eh....

I will copy my earlier message, which you seem less than willing to address, but only because it actually relates to the afore mentioned topic originally under discussion.


You're welcome.

I think we can all agree that 30,000 deaths in a war do not constitute a “genocide” but that Iran killing 30,000 of its own citizens is still appalling.

 

[LeahWill]

I think we can all agree that 30,000 deaths in a war do not constitute a “genocide” and that Iran killing 30,000 of its own citizens is appalling.

Why are you mentioning genocide?

If you want to make a useful contribution quote the verifiable evidence for your assertion that no males of military age who were killed were 'innocent'.

That is what I am querying, and what so far you and Lazaran are steadfastly avoiding.

 

[SebastianHolt]

I think we can all agree that 30,000 deaths in a war do not constitute a “genocide” but that Iran killing 30,000 of its own citizens is still appalling.

and Iran killed all those women protesters. Let's not forget the real crime here as most of those ladies were sexy as hell

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Why are you mentioning genocide?

If you want to make a useful contribution quote the verifiable evidence for your assertion that no males of military age who were killed were 'innocent'.

That is what I am querying, and what so far you and Lazaran are steadfastly avoiding.

Israel fought a war in Gaza after Gaza attacked Israel in 2023, killed over 1200 people and took over 200 hostages.

About 70,000 Gazans died during that war. Those numbers include all deaths, both from natural causes and the fighting. We don’t know how many were Hamas soldiers or how many were people killed by Hamas because they opposed them.

We do know about half were male teenagers or adults.

A lot of lives could have been saved if Hamas had just surrendered and released the hostages in 2024 instead of dragging out a war they already lost.

 

[LeahWill]

Israel fought a war in Gaza after Gaza attacked Israel in 2023, killed over 1200 people and took over 200 hostages.

About 70,000 Gazans died during that war. Those numbers include all deaths, both from natural causes and the fighting. We don’t know how many were Hamas soldiers or how many were people killed by Hamas because they opposed them.

We do know about half were male teenagers or adults.

A lot of lives could have been saved if Hamas had just surrendered and released the hostages in 2024 instead of dragging out a war they already lost.

You clearly need a reminder...

Everybody agrees that about 70,000 Gazans died during the war. Hamas claims that most were women and children, but demographic analysis shows about half were men of military age. So about 35,000 innocents.

70,000 deaths.
Half were military age men (= 35,000)
"So about 35,000 innocents".

Meaning no military age man killed was innocent.

Again, (please!) what is the verifiable evidence you are using to back that up?

Or has your stance now changed to -

We don’t know how many were Hamas soldiers or how many were people killed by Hamas because they opposed them.

Because if it is the latter can I leave it with you to let Lazaran know that the 35,000 figure has no foundation in fact and consequently my assertion was correct.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

My stance is that the left’s obsession with Israel has obscured other tragedies taking place around the world. That’s how we got off on this tangent. If you care more about the dead in Gaza than you do about the dead in Iran, that says something about you.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Obfuscation.
Just hurling out some nonsense to try and muddy the waters when you have absolutely no idea what my opinion on that is.

Unless like Lazaran you are claiming to be a mind reader, and so we must accept what you say as truth...


Can we at least agree that you meant what you said when you yourself wrote -

Surely that is not contentious.

We know that all 70,000 weren’t Hamas soldiers. Some innocents definitely died in the Gaza War.

We also know that all 70,000 weren’t innocent civilians. Many of the dead were combatants.

I’m not sure why you’re so obsessed with this point.

 

[Rightguide]

I make a lot of money too. i've just been saving gangbusters.

here...Merry Christmas. you'll enjoy this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2049924239440978294

Strange that the Democrats would reason that Islamic culture should be imported into the United States.

 

[LeahWill]

We know that all 70,000 weren’t Hamas soldiers. Some innocents definitely died in the Gaza War.

We also know that all 70,000 weren’t innocent civilians. Many of the dead were combatants.

I’m not sure why you’re so obsessed with this point.

Because there was a member who posted that they knew how many were innocent civilians.
There were 35,000 of them.
They could apparently quantify it to within 501
I know... Mad huh...

But when challenged on it rather than just saying it was not actually absolute they, and their friend, took it upon themselves to twist and turn and finally, when it was all they had left, accuse me of various (equally unverifiable) nonsense. If painted in to a corner throw some mud.

And the point they missed is that if some left wing fruitcake had come on here and posted they knew that 200,000 innocents were killed in Gaza, I would have taken the exact same approach. Where is the evidence for that. And you would have liked every comment.

Making up facts to 'prove your point' is just plain wrong, whether Trump does it or (sorry) but you do it.
And you definitely did. It is in your own words.

So about 35,000 innocents.

We don’t know how many were Hamas soldiers or how many were people killed by Hamas because they opposed them.

 

[ll74]

Strange that the Democrats would reason that Islamic culture should be imported into the United States.

Who is reasoning this?

And what does "should be imported" mean?

 

[icanhelp1]

Because there was a member who posted that they knew how many were innocent civilians.
There were 35,000 of them.
They could apparently quantify it to within 501
I know... Mad huh...

But then rather than just saying it was not actually absolute they, and their friend, took it upon themselves to twist and turn and finally, when it was all they had left, accuse me of various (equally unverifiable) nonsense. If painted in to a corner throw some mud.

And the point they missed is that if some left wing fruitcake had come on here and posted they knew that 200,000 innocents were killed in Gaza, I would have taken the exact same approach. Where is the evidence for that.

There have been posters calling for Israel to be charged with war crimes. Global news feeds have hammered Israel for a disproportional response to Oct 7th. Yet no one can substantiate what is an appropriate response to a genocide minded Hamas. We will never know how many innocent lives were lost and why. Is Hamas responsible for innocent lives lost because they used their own people as human shields? Hamas picked a fight with the big dog that was totally fed up with being attacked and they did something about it. Any country worth a crap would have responded the same way.

Making up facts to 'prove your point' is just plain wrong, whether Trump does it or (sorry) but you do it.
And you definitely did. It is in your own words.

 

[Lazaran]

Why are you mentioning genocide?

If you want to make a useful contribution quote the verifiable evidence for your assertion that no males of military age who were killed were 'innocent'.

That is what I am querying, and what so far you and Lazaran are steadfastly avoiding.

Welp, Hamas wants to have it both (all) ways, so…

Hamas does NOT differentiate between fighters / Hamas operatives (male OR female), and wants to suggest that all the dead are innocents, so…

And that ^ is understandable, because on 10/7, it was damn hard to differentiate the Gazans who entered Israel: Some were clearly identifiable as Hamas fighters, but others sure LOOKED like "innocent civilians" (and "innocent civilians" in Gaza also held Israeli hostages captive in their homes, so…).



Bottom line:

"Some people" have a problem with the numbers BSG cited (related to Iran genociding it’s own people vs Gazan casualties inflicted by Israel in a WAR), because it kinda flips the whole genocide narrative on its head.

I’m sure BSG would concede she does NOT have perfectly accurate numbers (I don’t even believe BSG’s numbers are perfectly accurate), if you would concede that there isn’t a genocide occurring in Gaza…

Just sayin’…



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[M4titties]

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[SebastianHolt]

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Bernie Sanders, the man that does nothing... accomplishes nothing...

 

[LeahWill]

I’m sure BSG would concede she does NOT have perfectly accurate numbers (I don’t even believe BSG’s numbers are perfectly accurate), if you would concede that there isn’t a genocide occurring in Gaza…

Sorry..?
You are suggesting BSG 'negotiates' her use of truth?
She will continue with the lies until she gets what she wants.
What chapter of the Art of The Deal is that in...

And as a reminder you have consistently and fervently argued her figures 'stand'.
But presumably you could also 'sign up' to that deal.

FFS (and apologies I know that is swearing)

But if this truly is the level you two operate at then I will tell you my views on genocide in Gazza and you can then shove your 'truth' where the sun doesn't shine.

There are people in this thread who call BSG some things I find hard to take, whatever her stance and however we two might disagree, but if this approach is acceptable to you two I can now see where he is coming from!

Has Israel committed genocide in Gaza in my opinion?
My understanding of the word genocide has been the total annihilation of a people due to them solely being a part of a 'group' (race / religion).
So based on that my answer would be no, Israel has clearly not committed genocide in Gaza.

A quick google to see whether my take on the word is correct says that 'intent to destroy' is now enough to be considered genocide. I would argue you can intend to commit suicide by throwing yourself under a bus, but if all you get is a broken leg you have not actually committed suicide. But I appreciate that trivialises the argument.
My answer though remains the same. No I do not believe the state of Israel has committed genocide in Gaza.
It's actions and conduct have though been abhorrent in my opinion.

For good measure I will repeat what I told BSG about the Hamas October attacks - that they were an indefensible crime against humanity. That response still made me "anti-semitic" at the time in her eyes.
Maybe I just didn't negotiate strongly enough.

 

[Rightguide]

Who is reasoning this?

And what does "should be imported" mean?

The Democrats, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, et al. It was they who opened the border to a criminal foreign invasion.

 

[ll74]

The Democrats, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, et al. It was they who opened the border to a criminal foreign invasion.

Thats not a logical progression that answers my questions. Try again

Who is reasoning this?

And what does "should be imported" mean?

 

[Cat]

Has Israel committed genocide in Gaza in my opinion?
My understanding of the word genocide has been the total annihilation of a people due to them solely being a part of a 'group' (race / religion).
So based on that my answer would be no, Israel has clearly not committed genocide in Gaza.

There are many opinions about the actions taking place in Gaza and the rest of Palestine.

I do not trust people's opinions easily, but this one seems relevant (and rather professional, though you could always claim that those people are all "anti-Semitic")

Genocide in Gaza?

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-rele...itted-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds

 

[Lazaran]

Sorry..?
You are suggesting BSG 'negotiates' her use of truth?
She will continue with the lies until she gets what she wants.
What chapter of the Art of The Deal is that in...

And as a reminder you have consistently and fervently argued her figures 'stand'.
But presumably you could also 'sign up' to that deal.

FFS (and apologies I know that is swearing)

But if this truly is the level you two operate at then I will tell you my views on genocide in Gazza and you can then shove your 'truth' where the sun doesn't shine.

There are people in this thread who call BSG some things I find hard to take, whatever her stance and however we two might disagree, but if this approach is acceptable to you two I can now see where he is coming from!

Has Israel committed genocide in Gaza in my opinion?
My understanding of the word genocide has been the total annihilation of a people due to them solely being a part of a 'group' (race / religion).
So based on that my answer would be no, Israel has clearly not committed genocide in Gaza.

A quick google to see whether my take on the word is correct says that 'intent to destroy' is now enough to be considered genocide. I would argue you can intend to commit suicide by throwing yourself under a bus, but if all you get is a broken leg you have not actually committed suicide. But I appreciate that trivialises the argument.
My answer though remains the same. No I do not believe the state of Israel has committed genocide in Gaza.
It's actions and conduct have though been abhorrent in my opinion.

For good measure I will repeat what I told BSG about the Hamas October attacks - that they were an indefensible crime against humanity. That response still made me "anti-semitic" at the time in her eyes.
Maybe I just didn't negotiate strongly enough.

So BSG’s numbers were NOT out of line (but maybe they are…), and Israel is NOT committing genocide (but maybe they are…).

And, yes, things done during WAR (by Israel, ETC) definitely ARE abhorrent…



Meanwhile: The narrative war MUST be fought (because ceding ground in the narrative war results in a continuation of Trump, Netanyahu, Putin, Xi, Erdogan, the Ayatollah, etc, and their minions dominating the space.)

Posters here on the PB are DEFINITELY trying to persuade (promote narratives). The decent posters do so in a fairly reasoned and reasonable manner. I’ve found BSG to be in that group - and I count you in that group as well (which is why I don’t understand your decision to engage / challenge BSG over her - only marginally - questionable numbers).



Also: I question your assertion that BSG considered / considers you anti-Semitic. If you aren’t accusing Israel of genocide, then I do NOT see BSG putting you in that camp (a camp that DOES exist).

Ultimately, I’m not sure where you’re going with your engagement, as it seems to border on nitpicking and courting personal offense. It seems you’re stuck in the middle of your own conflicted feelings when it comes to the Israel-Gaza situation. I don’t know if your engagement with BSG or myself is helping.



One thing I do know is that you are NOT my enemy, and I do NOT see you as way out of line (just as BSG is NOT my - or your - enemy, and her numbers were / are NOT way out of line).





We. Told. Them. So.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Sorry..?
You are suggesting BSG 'negotiates' her use of truth?
She will continue with the lies until she gets what she wants.
What chapter of the Art of The Deal is that in...

And as a reminder you have consistently and fervently argued her figures 'stand'.
But presumably you could also 'sign up' to that deal.

FFS (and apologies I know that is swearing)

But if this truly is the level you two operate at then I will tell you my views on genocide in Gazza and you can then shove your 'truth' where the sun doesn't shine.

There are people in this thread who call BSG some things I find hard to take, whatever her stance and however we two might disagree, but if this approach is acceptable to you two I can now see where he is coming from!

Has Israel committed genocide in Gaza in my opinion?
My understanding of the word genocide has been the total annihilation of a people due to them solely being a part of a 'group' (race / religion).
So based on that my answer would be no, Israel has clearly not committed genocide in Gaza.

A quick google to see whether my take on the word is correct says that 'intent to destroy' is now enough to be considered genocide. I would argue you can intend to commit suicide by throwing yourself under a bus, but if all you get is a broken leg you have not actually committed suicide. But I appreciate that trivialises the argument.
My answer though remains the same. No I do not believe the state of Israel has committed genocide in Gaza.
It's actions and conduct have though been abhorrent in my opinion.

For good measure I will repeat what I told BSG about the Hamas October attacks - that they were an indefensible crime against humanity. That response still made me "anti-semitic" at the time in her eyes.
Maybe I just didn't negotiate strongly enough.

I'm glad you acknowledge that Israel hasn't committed genocide, and that the October 7th attack was a crime against humanity. Let's get down to specifics. What do you find abhorrent about how Israel waged war in Gaza? All war by it's very nature is abhorrent, but why do you single out Israel in particular for condemnation?

 

[Lazaran]

What do you find abhorrent about how Israel waged war in Gaza?

Israel did NOT play into Hamas’ hands by entering Gaza with massive numbers of ground troops going building to building to root out Hamas fighters while simultaneously attempting to rescue hostages (losing countless IDF soldiers AND hostages in the process). Instead, Israel conducted a remote campaign involving wholesale demolition of Hamas infrastructure / strongholds.

That ^ is "abhorrent"…



Some people apparently / evidently would have preferred more dead IDF soldiers and less infrastructure destruction in Gaza… or maybe they would have preferred to just let Hamas "win" by rewarding their 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation with some kind of Israeli capitulation on various issues in exchange for the hostages…



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[AnomalyLady]

Who is reasoning this?

And what does "should be imported" mean?

Delux and Rory both seem to stand with Gaza vs Israel. It is confusing to see. As BSG said, if you are obsessed with the deaths in Gaza vs Iran, that says something about you. This thread is about Iran and shifted to Gaza.

 

[ll74]

Delux and Rory both seem to stand with Gaza vs Israel. It is confusing to see. As BSG said, if you are obsessed with the deaths in Gaza vs Iran, that says something about you. This thread is about Iran and shifted to Gaza.

I wasn't asking you the questions because you didn't make the statements.

 

[AnomalyLady]

I wasn't asking you the questions because you didn't make the statements.

I just wanted to add because the left's inconsistent view of Israel and Gaza is weird, and I think troublesome.

 

[Lazaran]

Strange that the Democrats would reason that Islamic culture should be imported into the United States.

Racistgukde says the stupidest racist / xenophobic shit.



Racistguide



We. Told. Them. So.