THE NEW CHYOO (with link)! Also, what features should be part of an updated CHYOO?

[Kaitou1412]

Since the rating system has been exploited in the past, by both giver and receiver, how about we introduce a middle ground on the anonymous matter?

Ratings and reviews have the option of anonymity to protect those who give fair criticism from those who can't take criticism. However, the user can have their username visible to the public if they choose. I don't mean what we have now, where some users sign their names, I mean an automatically generated username on the review and rating that includes a link to the user's home page. That said, to discourage and punish malicious reviews, three steps are taken. The first is ratings have to come with reviews, this ensures all ratings are justified, not malicious. The second, moderators can see the users behind all feedback that isn't give to their own work; this way, they can take appropriate action, but can't exploit it for personal gain. We could even go so far as to lock the anonymous names completely unless a complaint is made. Finally, anyone who gives malice too frequently loses the option and must have their usernames viewed by the public. This last one can also be turned around to discourage malevolent actions against critics: anyone who lashes out too many times can see all reviews, but only as made by anonymous.

Funnily enough, I think implementing the Karma system would be the ideal means of executing this idea. Upon registration, all users receive 5 or 10 points of Karma, negative actions cost them points, and a low enough score impacts anonymity in reviews. In other words, a low enough score means reviewers cannot post anonymously and that receivers cannot view the username attached to the review.

A public view of all users' Karma levels could also aid a decision in whether or not to post the review anonymously, though this is just a thought and one with which I'm not totally satisfied. We could even break it into smaller subsets and extend the reach further. For example, if the user writes several bashing threads or something similarly reprehensible, then a low enough Karma requires a moderator to approve each thread from that user in addition to the editor's decision.

And I do agree, a contact form of some kind would need to be implemented, to ensure that the users can understand the reviews, and the critics' concerns can be addressed in full.

 

[GreenBanana]

I can see the reasons for that, but it all sounds a bit involved for me. I expect other people get into that sort of thing, but I can't imagine everyone (like myself) wanting to use it. The form of contact I had in mind was just a non-rated response to an anonymous comment to explain something that perhaps was revised, or perhaps was misunderstood by the rater. Personally I wouldn't drop the anonymity, as the moderators should be able to tell who said what. I don't have a problem if my counterpoint doesn't end up being very popular, though.

I also don't think I could get behind a karma system, because I expect it could be just as exploitable as a rating system. Like I said, I happen to be a negative person, but I genuinely mean no ill intent towards other authors. Also, even if someone means to be constructive, they can still offend the writer. Obviously there's a vast difference between "u suk i hop u die i m the chees im teh best carcter in this cartoon u dont understand time cube" and "The pacing feels like I'm being raped by a cheetah." But here on the internet, people can get away with mocking an underlying premise while mimicking an overbearing parent to avoid sounding overtly hostile.

I'm undecided on making ratings commentary mandatory. I can nitpick punctuation, but I don't want people to think I chopped off a whole point just because of a few misplaced commas. Something can have decent spelling the whole way through, and yet the underlying problems are apparent without me being able to put my finger on it. "The Petals Fall Twice" might be a good example of not knowing how to approach the issues in a way that will be understood. In the end, what this amounts to is karma as a threat to raters to always be positive, even if they don't agree. And if commentary is mandatory and non-anonymous, then it's easy to nerf that user's karmic protections simply because a multitude of more sensitive users think a hard-ass is being a vicious jerk.

What if the author could delete commentary they've received from ratings, so nobody would have to see it? Out of sight, out of mind.

Hey, how about a feature to list the most recent new screen names, with corresponding links to their profile and threads? Also, perhaps profiles could be expanded to include links where examples of our writing already exists, such as non-interactive stories.

 

[GreenBanana]

5.) A Private Messaging system on site; so the spam filter doesn't hit the contacts from CHYOO, or in case someone doesn't want to give access to their email address.

As I was wondering to myself what proposed features had been accepted or considered, I turned back to the topic post. This one point grabbed my attention. An on-site private messaging system could have numerous sub-features to tie-in with the site proper.

Blocking users is definitely a sorry must, given how tempting it is for people to give in to misconduct. I'm assuming this PM system would function similarly to the forum's own.

I wonder what sort of feature would help combat the isolating aspects of writing. Writing collaborative threads is different from direct communication for me--I feel as though I'm giving myself over to the narrative. Meh, Literotica's chat is good enough for communicating with other writers, but it seems to be down, and people aren't typically sociable in my experience.

 

[2p1k3]

You say your a negative person but that example makes me laugh out loud literally.

I believe there maybe a confusion on what negative and positive mean. Being positive is far from 'having' to say everything is sunshine-rainbows-unicorns-fairies-all-the-time-nonstop.

I think of it more like a one-dimensional ruler with one end positive and the other negative. Positive is towards whatever it is 'you want', and negative is anything that has the opposite effect.

If the intent is to help the writer/post improve in some way, then its positive. Whether or not a writer/author chooses to take offense at a comment is entirely out of anyone else's control. If your intent is to be a troll then...

... "The pacing feels like I'm being raped by a cheetah."

...

In the end, what this amounts to is karma as a threat to raters to always be positive, even if they don't agree. ...

I like the current rating system as is. K-i-S-S method. I just wish I had the option to delete a few comments, that I have little use to keep around for various reasons.

 

[Kaitou1412]

I can see the reasons for that, but it all sounds a bit involved for me. I expect other people get into that sort of thing, but I can't imagine everyone (like myself) wanting to use it. The form of contact I had in mind was just a non-rated response to an anonymous comment to explain something that perhaps was revised, or perhaps was misunderstood by the rater.

You mean something like The ASN Story Board or pre-2010 YouTube? That could work, too. My thought on my form was promotion, which thus encourages reviewing. If the username is attached, with link, then it serves as a means of promoting their likes, stories, etc. This has been exploited in the past, but now we're getting into reporting comments.

Personally I wouldn't drop the anonymity, as the moderators should be able to tell who said what.

Moderators should see it all, but I was discussing what non-moderators see on a page. Total anonymity, besides being a myth, is also the main reason the current site is so easily exploited, but shielding critics from the vindictive is worth considering, especially if we establish a pattern of abuse from one writer.

I also don't think I could get behind a karma system, because I expect it could be just as exploitable as a rating system. Like I said, I happen to be a negative person, but I genuinely mean no ill intent towards other authors. Also, even if someone means to be constructive, they can still offend the writer. Obviously there's a vast difference between "u suk i hop u die i m the chees im teh best carcter in this cartoon u dont understand time cube" and "The pacing feels like I'm being raped by a cheetah." But here on the internet, people can get away with mocking an underlying premise while mimicking an overbearing parent to avoid sounding overtly hostile.

Truthfully, I had this speech that talked about the distinction between ratings and karma along with a means of refuting your example dealing with context and established patterns of behavior, but in the process I voided karma. While losing karma is conducted cleanly with a human moderator, an increase is far too cumbersome without being automated. This we would really have to think about, assuming anyone still wishes to pursue a karmic approach to responsibility.

I'm undecided on making ratings commentary mandatory. I can nitpick punctuation, but I don't want people to think I chopped off a whole point just because of a few misplaced commas. Something can have decent spelling the whole way through, and yet the underlying problems are apparent without me being able to put my finger on it. "The Petals Fall Twice" might be a good example of not knowing how to approach the issues in a way that will be understood.

In Chess and Shogi, inactivity results in total defeat for the player in question and a hollow victory for the opponent. This is the same. The writer fails to grow, and the reviewer gets cheated out of its opinion. Even if there's uncertainty, the effort alone can accomplish a great deal, well beyond identifying the problem. Not trying to explain your reasons accomplishes nothing. The only effect of a nude rating is the change of average.

What if the author could delete commentary they've received from ratings, so nobody would have to see it? Out of sight, out of mind.

And out of play. These old comments establish a pattern of behavior for critics, a pattern which is useful for separating trolls from the overly-critical. If the comment's gone completely, then the evidence is gone too and the pattern loses a link.

Hey, how about a feature to list the most recent new screen names, with corresponding links to their profile and threads? Also, perhaps profiles could be expanded to include links where examples of our writing already exists, such as non-interactive stories.

A list of users in general would be useful. As it stands, the only means to find users is through their threads.

I like the current rating system as is. K-i-S-S method. I just wish I had the option to delete a few comments, that I have little use to keep around for various reasons.

Simple is always best, but if it's too simple, it's exploited. I firmly believe there has to be a means of injecting responsibility into reviews and ratings, and some form of communication to understand the complaint is a must. Anonymity is in the gray area: it can be a means of protecting someone from backlash caused by an overly-sensitive user, but total anonymity has only let some users harass those they don't like. Moderators should be able to see the user responsible for the comments and able to remove the malicious - this I maintain absolutely. After this, I'm open to discussion.

If it's about removing the ones of no use, such as those that list spelling and grammar mistakes, then I'm keen on hiding them, not deleting them. Other reviews and forum posts can often resolve the ambiguity of certain harsh reviews, and some users include comments that work as a nice affirmation, so total removal for these isn't ideal. If it's hidden and only the thread creator and moderators can see it - and only if they want to read it - then it's as good as deleted while still useful.

 

[Black_Frost]

I wonder what sort of feature would help combat the isolating aspects of writing. Writing collaborative threads is different from direct communication for me--I feel as though I'm giving myself over to the narrative. Meh, Literotica's chat is good enough for communicating with other writers, but it seems to be down, and people aren't typically sociable in my experience.

How about making our own forum with our own chat? This one is run by a single person, for about an hour ever day the forum shifts between down and online, and key features are missing since Literotica doesn't care about us.

If this is going to be done without Literotica, we as well go all the way and cut them out completely. They've already done it with us.

 

[GreenBanana]

How about making our own forum with our own chat? This one is run by a single person, for about an hour ever day the forum shifts between down and online, and key features are missing since Literotica doesn't care about us.

If this is going to be done without Literotica, we as well go all the way and cut them out completely. They've already done it with us.

In my high school, we had multiple cliques in the "sheezy alt kiddies" vein. Impressionable when it came to perceived non-conformity. I imagine it started something like that, then ended abruptly in a way akin to the punchline to Little Britain's "Guns" sketch.

My objection with this is resources. The internet's been ruined by commercialization, and now everybody is under the lazy Ralph Kramden impression they can get rich doing very little work by setting the world wide web to autopilot. You'll hear it all the time online: "We do this for free, therefore we can forsake giving a professional effort." We're overlooking the fact that supplanting money for ethics is unethical. I imagine people used to pay for websites by having things called "jobs," and ISPs even used to give out webspace if I recall correctly. Now people want to claim the website is their job, but at the end of the day, it's all a virtual collection of ones and zeroes.

We might as well stick it out here where a forum's already set up and just behave ourselves like housebroken adults.

 

[BJ]

So, when will the new Chyoo begin? The old one is not working at all. Can not advance any stories.

 

[Friedman]

So, when will the new Chyoo begin? The old one is not working at all. Can not advance any stories.

Hi BJ,

we - the current team - are making good progress. We'll need another week to finish the programming part, and shortly after that the test phase will begin.

To reduce the waiting time, here is a screenshot of the new CHYOO homepage:

Best regards,
Friedman

 

[Xorph]

This is looking really good. Can't wait to see it up and running.

 

[GreenBanana]

I kind of like FoldingStory's options to list stories with the oldest first, or the most dormant first. Because I'm unpopular and a menace, it benefits my minority to avoid visibility based on a popularity contest.

I wonder if there are any methods to help boost diversity.

Something about the "popular searches" irks me. I'm not entirely sure what, and I'm not sure I should come right out and say what it is. It's probably just me being unpopular again. The tags, too, seem a little off-kilter from what one would expect from certain image gallery sites such as Rule34. Oh well, it's just a mock-up. Maybe because the differently sized text reminds me of so many search engine dead ends.

I wonder if some of this information would be supplanted by more pertinent information if someone had just logged in--such as new additions to stories the user has worked on, or some such.

I like the minimalist look. I just hope it doesn't try to distance itself too much from the inherent sexual content.

 

[2p1k3]

Despite GreenBanana's prediction I believe it is relatively 'easy' to set up a forum. The only issue is people using it. Having links to the forum on the front page helps a lot with that.

I suggest also incorporating the Google+ and FaceBook Page links. They themselves provide rudimentary 'chat' capability with little out of pocket expense. However as I mentioned I think there are a couple different 'sites that offer basic white/black forums with limited gui customization and the forum itself uses "current" programming versions.

For instance Pro phpBB offers free hosting. They have a directory too where you can look at what other community forums other admins have already created.

If CHYOO3 uses iframes you may be able to keep the forum 'tied' to the main site that way. Otherwise, they offer some gui customization features.

How about making our own forum with our own chat? This one is run by a single person, for about an hour ever day the forum shifts between down and online, and key features are missing since Literotica doesn't care about us.

If this is going to be done without Literotica, we as well go all the way and cut them out completely. They've already done it with us.

However, I agree with GreenBanana that profit is a good motivator. I believe it would be best to focus on rebuilding CHYOO3's new site without fees. Maybe suggest charity donations, for the people spending the most time on playing around as admin.

The frontpage looks awesome Friedman, thank you very much.

 

[GreenBanana]

Maybe suggest charity donations, for the people spending the most time on playing around as admin.

Oh, goody, we've already got plutocracy. I can hear the Biskit twins already: "Butler! We like, need a new laptop. This old laptop is, like, buh-roken."

I despise religion, and yet I'd be compelled to pray that I'm not the only one who doesn't equate wealth with value. All it takes is someone desperate enough to blow a thousand dollars for administrator privileges. Someone so bottom-dwelling and lacking in self-esteem to have spent the better part of a decade lurking, stalking, hacking, spawning kidnapper-inspired alternate screen names to circumvent rules, to bundle together a massive clusterfuck of petty, prepubescent revenge.
Just imagine if we all had to decipher rules that consisted of the following: "you must obey/follow/accept my demands/rules/orders/divine word because i have paid the sum of 1 hundred dollars/dineros/bucks of American/U.S. moneys (USA#1!) &/or so you're obligation/requirement is to accept me as your 1 and only ruler/dictator/god."
Because hey, whoever tied conspicuous consumption with our most prestigious and influential jobs? In short, I think we should strictly keep administrative duties based upon meritocracy and dedication.

 

[2p1k3]

And your method rewards said merit and dedication with... silence. and that is at best.

at worse? They deal with the dregs like TJ_blank_ and his omnigender clones.

It is truly amazing that we don't already have a great line up of people wishing to contribute towards administrative duties consistently... I know I certainly have an overwhelming lack of a desire towards such activity.

Please understand, I am neutral on what should or shouldn't happen in the future. I have very little say and I have little desire to change that. I simply enjoy writing and reading... However, I also enjoy debating, and illuminating what appears as ignorance.

Whine and criticize the Free Market as much as you want. At the end of the day, with competition, it still equals the best solution to the distribution of labor and goods to consumers.

All other economic systems invented by man in recorded history fail quite outstandingly really. Where as Capitalism has risen more people out of poverty than any other economic system devised and implemented.

Just for clarification, a Free Market with competition has failed to exist in the US for over a century. Instead Woodrow Wilson turned the Senate and [/i]Presidency[/i] into popularity contests, and thus paved the way for corporations to buy out the government through lobbyists.

I know they fail to teach these things in formal public schools and state universities but yikes. There are plenty of books out there that inform about this stuff like Money Mischief by Milton Friedman. Or simply watch episodes of @FBNStossel online for free.

Statist's desire to burn all evidence of and silence/censor the opposition has proven to actually be exceedingly far from effective, thankfully.

However, as I said I am fine with the current people in charge doing whatever it is they want. I am just happy the new CHYOO3 appears to look and work a lot like CHYOO2 but sooo much better. Just don't be surprised if Torq finds a girlfriend and gets serious, then drops off the face of the internet and zero people feel like picking up the humongous slack seemingly he carries.

If there are others CHYOO admin? I apologize for having zero idea who you even are.

 

[GreenBanana]

In this hypothetical situation, you introduce a new interactive story. Two different users make their own unique and equally well-written posts, but these posts follow the same exact logical choice following the previous thread.

What's the terminology for this scenario? How does one decide which story to keep?

I'm disinclined to invalidate one person's time and effort simply because they made the same decision as another author. I feel work deserves credit (especially if they wish to add to one of my stories), and it's arbitrary to reject a person's creative input simply because they weren't first (we can't obsess over the site all day, every day--well, most of us). They've both followed a logical choice in continuing the narrative, but in terms of the overarching story, it can make little sense to the reader to have two different outcomes for the same exact choice.

Is there a way to reject a story submission without the author losing their work if they didn't make a back-up in a word processor? Can we return their submissions to them along with requests that they tweak a few developments and try to incorporate their ideas under another viable option? This would still be an arbitrary retraction, but it seems the nearest compromise I can find. Perhaps we can request both authors tweak their submissions to make them a bit more different from one another, either in inflection or tone. I guess I'm wondering if this is seen as taboo, which is indicative of my inexperience here.

It just feels even more arbitrary to have two identical choices leading to different outcomes.

 

[Indirect]

I think that kind of scenario happens because if you're not a trusted writer you can't add a chain of threads all at once. That encourages writers to produce one large thread without any divisions at reasonable points.

So the choice "Go to X's bedroom" leads straight to a massive scene involving dominance and submission, whipped cream and decisions about the future. It would be better if the option just lead you to X's bedroom where we could see how they react and have further branch points.

If a mechanism is added which would allow rejected threads to remain in limbo then this could also allow an author to add a whole chain of threads, all of which could be approved or disapproved by the editor, then I think this situation would occur much less often. Perhaps only the first thread would be visible to the readers, the rest visible to the author and editor.

 

[GoodBoy741]

I haven't read the whole thread, so other people might have already suggested these things. Sorry.

1) IP banning. If a troublesome author won't accept being banned, this would help.

2) Some kind of Super banning option. If that troublesome author finds a way to continue posting from multiple IPs, this could be useful. I'm imagining a banning option that automatically deletes all of an authors posts, his ratings for stories, and anything else. That way the moderators don't have to spend much time tracking down his posts and individually deleting them.

 

[GreenBanana]

In terms of the new site, how's the writing interface coming along? My personal concern for forms relies on carriage returns. I've seen some websites that have issues with these on cutting and pasting. On one such site, whether I cut and pasted from Notepad, Wordpad or MS Word, the form would insert its own spontaneous carriage returns, which was a nuisance to reformat--particularly on longer submissions. I realize it's not too important, and I'm glad for the simplistic formatting needs of Chyoo, but preserving the writer's formatting can avoid headaches.

 

[Friedman]

In terms of the new site, how's the writing interface coming along?

Technically, there will be a simple text area, similar to the current one. Although in the first version/release we'll include simple Markdown text formatting styles. This shouldn't cause any problems with the mentioned text editors.

 

[GreenBanana]

Meanwhile, back in reality, is it possible for a story on Chyoo to have two acting editors? I've been looking through only a few of the "top" stories (which seem rather short), and I've only seen one editor each for them. I was also thinking about the Adopt-a-Story thread elsewhere on the Chyoo forum. Does the creator of a story always have editor status, even if a story's adopted by, for example, Torg? Unless of course the creator is banned for misconduct, I kind of feel like a creator should still be able to pull editing duties, even if they've been away from the site for a long time.

Also, are there options to manually promote or demote a writer to or from trusted status, or to manually add a friend as an editor? It's my own fault for not writing more to find this out.

 

[Kaitou1412]

is it possible for a story on Chyoo to have two acting editors? I've been looking through only a few of the "top" stories (which seem rather short), and I've only seen one editor each for them.

There is another role in the line-up for contributors labeled "editor," but such writers do not appear as an editor on the cover page; in fact, their own pages only list them as "sub-editor" instead of a full editor. That said, it seems to be a glorified trusted status: sub-editor threads are automatically approved, their own "Stories" and "Home" pages don't give them the option of a direct link to the thread that needs approving, only the "Approve/Deny Thread" option at the bottom of the thread - which is currently unusable due to the state of CHYOO - is an option and it only allows them to weigh in, not actually make the final decision (unless an auto-approve feature is enabled). The only distinction is sub-editors can see and click the "edit thread" option at the bottom of the page, but it directs them to a blank page instead of letting them edit the actual thread.

As it stands, it seems a moderator is needed to make a new editor appear on the cover page, and only one user can have that spot. I also think my efforts to experiment with the semi-functional CHYOO opened Pandora's Box and established how "sdffs" happened.

Hopefully all of this answers your questions concerning creators.

Also, are there options to manually promote or demote a writer to or from trusted status, or to manually add a friend as an editor? It's my own fault for not writing more to find this out.

Yes, but only if they've supplied a thread. It doesn't even have to be an approved thread, writers of denied and pending threads can also be edited in such a way. Go to your "Stories" page, select "view writers" under a story that lists you as a full editor, and select "[edit role]" to promote or demote a user.

 

[GreenBanana]

Hopefully all of this answers your questions concerning creators.

Yes, but only if they've supplied a thread. It doesn't even have to be an approved thread, writers of denied and pending threads can also be edited in such a way. Go to your "Stories" page, select "view writers" under a story that lists you as a full editor, and select "[edit role]" to promote or demote a user.

Hm. Maybe users should only be credited as writers if they have a thread approved.

Actually, I still have a suggestion regarding the Adopt-a-Story program (but perhaps that's not for here). Sorry I was a bit indirect about it! I just think that if a story's creator has been away for a while, they shouldn't lose editorial status as the creator if Torg should choose to adopt the story. It's a bit of a niche situation, I'll admit, but I myself tend to rotate which pages I regularly visit online for weeks or months at a time. Of course, I don't think that altering rules just because it suits one person's habits is a good motivation, but I don't see the harm in this. Don't worry--I won't be hurt if the billions of flippant suggestions I make don't make the cut.

(And that's how a moderator and a forum user have a polite discussion regarding rules and questions, kids!)

On another point, how are the new site's securities in terms of data loss? What's the integrity of the server for the storage of our stories? Is there a back-up? Is a roll-back possible in case of an error?

 

[Kaitou1412]

Hm. Maybe users should only be credited as writers if they have a thread approved.

Well, the cover page only lists writers with approved threads. However, denied and pending threads still cause the writer to appear under the "view writers" link from the user's personal "Stories" page, as well as cause any votes cast on their threads to be factored into the average. This exists until the submission is deleted, a process which can only be executed by the writer when the thread is denied or by a moderator at any point.

Actually, I still have a suggestion regarding the Adopt-a-Story program (but perhaps that's not for here). Sorry I was a bit indirect about it! I just think that if a story's creator has been away for a while, they shouldn't lose editorial status as the creator if Torg should choose to adopt the story.

If the creator takes a hiatus and the story is transferred, a simple forum post or contact with a site moderator can send editorial control back once the moderator gets the message. Naturally, this only extends to users who are rightfully returning, not someone who decided to create a new username because the old one was banished or other such nonsense. It's not a perfect system, but it works.

Besides, stories aren't usually adopted unless there's at least a month of inactivity and someone with a legitimate username wants the story. So long as you keep email notifications enabled and respond to them in short order, there shouldn't even be a transfer. The only exceptions so far have been the stories controlled by TJChurch, but that's because he was banished and previously ruined the punctuation on all of them.

 

[Friedman]

On another point, how are the new site's securities in terms of data loss? What's the integrity of the server for the storage of our stories? Is there a back-up? Is a roll-back possible in case of an error?

We are storing all data on 3 different servers in at least 2 different data centers with continuous synchronization. Additionally, we are keeping daily backup for 30 days.
In case of failure or any other circumstances, we are able to roll-back the latest backup within minutes.

I hope this answers your questions.

 

[GreenBanana]

We are storing all data on 3 different servers in at least 2 different data centers with continuous synchronization. Additionally, we are keeping daily backup for 30 days.
In case of failure or any other circumstances, we are able to roll-back the latest backup within minutes.

I hope this answers your questions.

Yep! Sure did! Glad to hear there's another layer of safety on our hard work. :3