The NO god question

[Guest]

I found that evidence years ago. Didn't cause me to go on a murderous rampage then. I doubt it would now.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Dranoel
I found that evidence years ago. Didn't cause me to go on a murderous rampage then. I doubt it would now.

I'll bite... what's the evidence?

 

[avery_elzmyth]

It might stop a few wars, though.

Lou

Wow, you said a mouthful! If that's your pic in your profile...smart AND beautiful...damn, you have it all!

 

[avery_elzmyth]

I'll bite... what's the evidence?

That would be the real kicker in the story. Years ago there was a movie ("On the Seventh Day" I think it was called) where God talked to the world through the radio. In this movie it showed people listening, but for the viewers there was only dead silence. My story would show people reacting to this discovery, but the 'proof' would never be revealed.

 

[avery_elzmyth]

Many here have claimed their atheism. I, too, fall into this category, but somewhere deep deep down inside I know I have this infinitesimal hope that our existence means at least Something.

Cut this hope out and I honestly I can't say that I won't have strange ideas. Like: If there is no god and if murder isn't a sin then why not kill off the low-lifes, the pedophiles, the drunk drivers, the corrupt government officials, the stupid trailer trash raising kids that will only spawn more trailer trash. Why not kill off the drug dealers, the prostitutes, the wife batterer...

If one says he will not change, wouldn't the fear of those who WOULD change--who WOULD become killers and rapists--force you to change? Wouldn't you toy with the idea of carring a gun, where before you wouldn't? Wouldn't you raise your kids with more of a focus on self defense than higher education...after all, what good is being intelligent if you're dead?

If a woman was food shopping in front of you and she dropped forty bucks...(normally I would give it back), but with no god, no sin...would this woman do the same for you? Would your mind raise this question? I think the changes would be slow and so insignificant that we probably wouldn't see the change right away.

Hey, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

 

[minsue]

Wow, you said a mouthful! If that's your pic in your profile...smart AND beautiful...damn, you have it all!

That she does.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Many here have claimed their atheism. I, too, fall into this category, but somewhere deep deep down inside I know I have this infinitesimal hope that our existence means at least Something.

Cut this hope out and I honestly I can't say that I won't have strange ideas. Like: If there is no god and if murder isn't a sin then why not kill off the low-lifes, the pedophiles, the drunk drivers, the corrupt government officials, the stupid trailer trash raising kids that will only spawn more trailer trash. Why not kill off the drug dealers, the prostitutes, the wife batterer...

If one says he will not change, wouldn't the fear of those who WOULD change--who WOULD become killers and rapists--force you to change? Wouldn't you toy with the idea of carring a gun, where before you wouldn't? Wouldn't you raise your kids with more of a focus on self defense than higher education...after all, what good is being intelligent if your dead?

If a woman was food shopping in front of you and she dropped forty bucks...(normally I would give it back), but with no god, no sin...would this woman do the same for you? Would your mind raise this question? I think the changes would be slow and so insignificant that we probably wouldn't see the change right away.

Hey, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

The best man I ever knew was a full-blown atheist. For him there was no Heaven or Hell, no eternal justice, no reward for good deeds. He was treated like shit by a lot of people because even with God people who are genuinely kind are easily taken advantage of. Even though he believed we only get one life, he put his life on the line multiple times to stop injustices including breaking up a rape. He died young and tragically, but he was beautiful because he truly was good for goodness's sake. Not because of God's reward or the hope that society would look well on it or popularity, but because being good was who he was. For all who are atheist and wonder about the seduction of sin that comes with the vanishing of rules and law, he existed and hopefully still exists in some quasi-spiritual way as a beacon of guidance and hope.

If that fails, use cantdog. He's a good secular humanist.

Losing any hope in eternal justice doesn't mean you need to sacrifice the good things in (for lack of a better word) your spirit or soul.

Course as the Prince of Lies perhaps this is all a giant ruse and I'm secretly trying to destroy you through rewardless morality (hey, I am a big fan of irony).

 

[avery_elzmyth]

(hey, I am a big fan of irony). [/B]

Irony is good.

 

[minsue]

For all who are atheist and wonder about the seduction of sin that comes with the vanishing of rules and law, he existed and hopefully still exists in some quasi-spiritual way as a beacon of guidance and hope.

It's not generally the atheists that are concerned with losing morality when it's learned there is no god.


Every time you tell a story of your friend, Luc, my heart beats faster knowing how it ends. I swear, there's a part of me that reads it hoping for a different outcome somehow.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Many here have claimed their atheism. I, too, fall into this category, but somewhere deep deep down inside I know I have this infinitesimal hope that our existence means at least Something.

Cut this hope out and I honestly I can't say that I won't have strange ideas. Like: If there is no god and if murder isn't a sin then why not kill off the low-lifes, the pedophiles, the drunk drivers, the corrupt government officials, the stupid trailer trash raising kids that will only spawn more trailer trash. Why not kill off the drug dealers, the prostitutes, the wife batterer...

If one says he will not change, wouldn't the fear of those who WOULD change--who WOULD become killers and rapists--force you to change? Wouldn't you toy with the idea of carring a gun, where before you wouldn't? Wouldn't you raise your kids with more of a focus on self defense than higher education...after all, what good is being intelligent if your dead?

If a woman was food shopping in front of you and she dropped forty bucks...(normally I would give it back), but with no god, no sin...would this woman do the same for you? Would your mind raise this question? I think the changes would be slow and so insignificant that we probably wouldn't see the change right away.

Hey, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

"You can't exactly KILL EM ALL, LET GOD SORT EM OUT if there isn't a god. I agree with your idea but not where you hypotheticaly take it. Drunk driving and living in a trailer aren't exactly crirmes deserving death if there isn't a god, and who decides who gets death.

I would never toy with the idea of carrying a gun, I have a concealed carry permit and never leave home without one. I would give the lady her 40 bucks back, knowing she needed it to feed her kids but was going to buy some crack. I wouldn't even think about it. Its the right thing to do.

You may notice I keep coming back to this. No god doesn't mean no right or wrong. There is hell on earth and devils among us, there may be god, whether there is or not there will always be right and wrong. Being good does not mean being weak, and being evil does not mean being strong.

If someone decides that because there is or isn't a god he should rape and kill me he will most likely die. I won't smile or enjoy it but I will survive, and other good peoples will also.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

A good question is whether the actual existance of God is important, practically, or as important as the purpose of the belief in the existance of God.

Do we keep ourselves above anarchy and mass moral lapse because of the belief in the existance of God (including all spiritual reward or predicate)? And, if its true or most likely true that we do, then is fostering the idea that God exists not a social kindness?

 

[minsue]

A good question is whether the actual existance of God is important, practically, or as important as the purpose of the belief in the existance of God.

Do we keep ourselves above anarchy and mass moral lapse because of the belief in the existance of God (including all spiritual reward or predicate)? And, if its true or most likely true that we do, then is fostering the idea that God exists not a social kindness?

I find the thought of threat of God being the only thing keeping people from rampaging to be unbelievably depressing. While I don't consider myself a Pollyanna by any means, I cannot believe people as a whole are that weak, Joe.

 

[Lisa Denton]

I find the thought of threat of God being the only thing keeping people from rampaging to be unbelievably depressing. While I don't consider myself a Pollyanna by any means, I cannot believe people as a whole are that weak, Joe.

What the goose says.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by minsue
I find the thought of threat of God being the only thing keeping people from rampaging to be unbelievably depressing. While I don't consider myself a Pollyanna by any means, I cannot believe people as a whole are that weak, Joe.

I don't know that its necessarily weakness, just premise. I mean to say, we can talk about it like its a weakness, but it could easily be a matter of it being simply primary.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

A good question is whether the actual existance of God is important, practically, or as important as the purpose of the belief in the existance of God.

Do we keep ourselves above anarchy and mass moral lapse because of the belief in the existance of God (including all spiritual reward or predicate)? And, if its true or most likely true that we do, then is fostering the idea that God exists not a social kindness?

I don't believe so or at least not in the total or else we would never have seen people like Douglas Adams or my best friend who were beautiful humans despite having zero belief in eternal justice, a divine being, or the other spiritual carrots.

Perhaps for some, belief in eternal justice acts like the justice system saving them from giving in to impulses that are sadistic or bring harm to others. But I believe that in all sum total, the good would still be good, the evil evil, the weak weak, and the cowardly dissuaded by man-made laws and fright of jail. Perhaps it's uncharacteristically optimistic, but maybe that's his beliefs rubbing off on me. The idea of a reason behind it all, eternal life, and eternal justice are still desirable though even for the unbelievers. I would say that my friend and ol' Adams would be quite pleasantly surprised to find out he was wrong about the Afterlife and that eternal justice does exist.

Remember even Marvin the depressed robot after being treated like shit for multiple lifespans of the Universe at the very end felt good seeing the Last Message from God on the Mountain Range: "We're sorry for the inconvienence."

P.S. I remember a speech by Douglas Adams a while ago that discussed the idea of belief being neccessary for many or some to help soften the cudgels as he said. I remember it being very witty and interesting.

 

[nushu2]

'Ironic' would have been confronting an athiest with evidence of God's existence. As one of the faithless, myself, that could be amusing.

If God showed up, would we all be diving into foxholes?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by nushu2
'Ironic' would have been confronting an athiest with evidence of God's existence. As one of the faithless, myself, that could be amusing.

If God showed up, would we all be diving into foxholes?

I think you'd probably see some still clinging to "B-b-but, we didn't have a-any proof... so not believing was o.k." and then whining and whining about how they're not to blame and then all the religious peoples of the world having a giant block party celebration.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Initially posted by nushu2
'Ironic' would have been confronting an athiest with evidence of God's existence. As one of the faithless, myself, that could be amusing.

If God showed up, would we all be diving into foxholes?

Relief would be my guess. Being an atheist has a very harsh and scary death program. I believe most would rather be wrong if it were all the same. When I used to be an agnostic in the way old days, I believed sincerely that it would be more pleasant to spend eternity in Hell than to completely disappear into nothingness.

I think God showing up to one and all would be fairly nifty. He could stress once again how Faith alone saves diddly-squat to all the Fake Christians, Jews, and Muslims out there and how personal morality is the deciding factor. Then he'd set something on fire and head back to his soul watching duties and leave everyone to misinterpret his arrival.

 

[minsue]

Agreed. I've always envied those who can believe. It seems to bring such peace and comfort in times of pain. I'd give almost anything for that.

Joe, it's not a matter of deciding not to believe in God any more than it is in deciding to do so. Was your faith a conscious decision for you?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by minsue
Agreed. I've always envied those who can believe. It seems to bring such peace and comfort in times of pain. I'd give almost anything for that.

Joe, it's not a matter of deciding not to believe in God any more than it is in deciding to do so. Was your faith a conscious decision for you?

Yes.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Yes.

No comment.

Just don't tell me it's because of that wager.

 

[minsue]

Yes.

Really? I was not aware faith could be such. Seems to fly in the face of the definition, but to each his own.

Considering faith is in and of itself the antithesis of logic, it surprises me that you would choose it. (Not trying to be argumentative there. Just honest.)

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by minsue
Really? I was not aware faith could be such. Seems to fly in the face of the definition, but to each his own.

Considering faith is in and of itself the antithesis of logic, it surprises me that you would choose it. (Not trying to be argumentative there. Just honest.)

Faith may or may not be the antithesis of Logic. That's a tough one. Essentially, illogic would be the antithesis of Logic but Faith is belief and belief isn't illogic. Belief is premise not method.

Some philosophers took it that the two were complimentary, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Some thought them at odds, but that's never been well substantiated. Eh.

 

[minsue]

Faith may or may not be the antithesis of Logic. That's a tough one. Essentially, illogic would be the antithesis of Logic but Faith is belief and belief isn't illogic. Belief is premise not method.

Some philosophers took it that the two were complimentary, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Some thought them at odds, but that's never been well substantiated. Eh.

Just going by the dictionary*, not being philosophical. I'm too tired for that this eve.

*2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by minsue
Just going by the dictionary*, not being philosophical. I'm too tired for that this eve.

*2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Going just on the definition, I can agree that Faith isn't based on Logic. Logic is not, then, a premise of faith (neither is material evidence). But, and here's sort of where it gets complicated, the psychodynamic theory isn't based on logic or material evidence either... but both logic and material evidence can be used to explain or relate parts of it to other concepts.