the no politics/religion rule and forbidden romance

[StrentWriter]

Yeah my interpretation was that it was some dickhead's racist fantasy, tbh.

The difference between the two of us was, I think, that I assumed good intent and satire

 

[Purechicanery]

The difference between the two of us was, I think, that I assumed good intent and satire

I think genuine satire is relatively rare, and that what is more common is a thin veneer of humour plastered over genuinely held opinions.

 

[Dodola]

I think genuine satire is relatively rare, and that what is more common is a thin veneer of humour plastered over genuinely held opinions.

This is what destroyed standup comedy.
This opinion and the judgements that followed.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The difference between the two of us was, I think, that I assumed good intent and satire

I think that was probably too charitable an assumption in this case.

 

[Voboy]

I just now hatched a plot bunny: a woman is invited to a family Christmas party with a bunch of her right-winger family members. So she decides to take the piss by hiring an escort to pose as her wife, just for fun. Comic hilarity would ensue.

I wouldn't think twice about submitting a story like that. Yes, it would ridicule conservative ideology. Yes, politics would form an important part of the plot. No, the characters would generally not be assholes. I'd expect that story to be posted easily.

The politics, you see, would not be me proselytizing. They would appear as plot points. That makes a difference.

 

[Dodola]

I just now hatched a plot bunny: a woman is invited to a family Christmas party with a bunch of her right-winger family members. So she decides to take the piss by hiring an escort to pose as her wife, just for fun. Comic hilarity would ensue.

I wouldn't think twice about submitting a story like that. Yes, it would ridicule conservative ideology. Yes, politics would form an important part of the plot. No, the characters would generally not be assholes. I'd expect that story to be posted easily.

The politics, you see, would not be me proselytizing. They would appear as plot points. That makes a difference.

Yes! THIS.

Let the characters make their ridiculous ideological points through dialog and interaction with each other, not from your own perspective.

 

[Voboy]

Yes! THIS.

Let the characters make their ridiculous ideological points through dialog and interaction with each other, not from your own perspective.

I think, if I was concerned about going over the top by devising a main character who loathes conservatism, I'd probably balance it out by making them the least likeable character in the crowd.

As I ponder this some more, I think I'd probably go from the POV of the escort, who doesn't GAF about any of the people at the party, nor their beliefs. She'd think the liberal MC is an asshole, and that many of the conservative family members are also assholes. Then she'd probably sleep with one of the conservative family members.

For extra fun, I'd probably make the escort a minority.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I think, if I was concerned about going over the top by devising a main character who loathes conservatism, I'd probably balance it out by making them the least likeable character in the crowd.

As I ponder this some more, I think I'd probably go from the POV of the escort, who doesn't GAF about any of the people at the party, nor their beliefs. She'd think the liberal MC is an asshole, and that many of the conservative family members are also assholes. Then she'd probably sleep with one of the conservative family members.

For extra fun, I'd probably make the escort a minority.

This almost sounds like The Menu, but about politics rather than food (and erotic rather than horror).

 

[Dodola]

 

[TheRedChamber]

I think its important to note that a) whether or not it was satire and b) whether or not it was ~good~ satire is irrelant to the site. True, there a category called Humor and Satire but that covers 'All things sexual'. The site specifically does not want political satire, presumably because it is both divisive without being within the purpose of the site. This thread is already starting to divide along those lines.

(That said, if it had been a more typical slower BTB story with the immigrant lover being deported as part of the revenge and had been a little more restrained, it probably would have stayed)

 

[Dodola]

It was only labeled political because people got triggered by their own political ideologies, which bled into their reactions.

I'm not defending what people say, just their right to say it. The readers will be the ultimate judge.

 

[MiaBabe23]

I made not dissimilar points on the other thread but:
1) A story that consists of the lead character taking satisfaction from a violent deportation of a Latino immigrant who he thinks his wife slept with, isn’t satire, nor is it erotica
2) Freedom of speech isn’t right to an audience, particularly of a site that expressly forbids bigotry and racism

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Art is frequently political whether intended or not. Ansel Adams may not have intended Half Dome as a political statement, but it is now crucial to the environmental movement. Art also frequently comes from who we are, which includes our politics, and even without him intending to, it says something about his relationship with the environment. Would he have taken this photo, or would it have been the way it was, if he were not a passionate environmentalist? Perhaps, perhaps not.

If he wasn't interested in nature he probably would have been taking pictures of something else.
That doesn't make the image political.
People try to connect things with rather tenous threads. If you have to know the biography and beliefs of the artist to find politics in a work of art, then the art isn't political.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Jesus Christ.

So much for “freedom of expression”.

I saw it as distinctly tongue in cheek and it worked rather well as satire!

This is Lit, people only do freedom of expression until it's their ox getting gored.

 

[Dodola]

I made not dissimilar points on the other thread but:
1) A story that consists of the lead character taking satisfaction from a violent deportation of a Latino immigrant who he thinks his wife slept with, isn’t satire, nor is it erotica
2) Freedom of speech isn’t right to an audience, particularly of a site that expressly forbids bigotry and racism

What qualifies as bigotry or racism is subjective.

I have no idea what the author intended, and don't care. I can down vote it and leave a comment, expressing whatever it made me feel, to the author.
It only becomes divisive if I react angrily and start arguing my own political ideology.

There's no universal concensus on bigotry and racism. For example, many people firmly believe that only white people can even BE racists or bigots, and that it's impossible for people of color to be guilty of either.

There are those who think lit should ban the nc/r and t/i categories, because they find them offensive.
I'm in the camp of don't read it, or vote accordingly if you choose to.

 

[TheLobster]

What qualifies as bigotry or racism is subjective.

Even more importantly, you are fully allowed write bigoted and racist characters. It is not indicative of your attitudes as the author, and the fact this doesn’t seem completely obvious to everyone belies the sorry state of general literacy.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Even more importantly, you are fully allowed write bigoted and racist characters. It is not indicative of your attitudes as the author, and the fact this doesn’t seem completely obvious to everyone belies the sorry state of general literacy.

Write a story featuring a murder - of course you don't condone murder.
Write a story with a rapist - of course you don't condone rape.
Write a story with a racist - OH MY GOD YOU RACIST BIGOT!!!

 

[Dodola]

belies the sorry state of general literacy.

Our emotions are definitely making us less objective than ever before.
I also assumed that readers were able to read between the lines and not view character traits or plot situations as ideological statements from me, but it happens. It helped me understand that no one is going to like everything I write, or maybe anything, and that not all readers have the same perception, depending on their own ideals and sensitivities.

 

[MiaBabe23]

What qualifies as bigotry or racism is subjective.

I have no idea what the author intended, and don't care. I can down vote it and leave a comment, expressing whatever it made me feel, to the author.
It only becomes divisive if I react angrily and start arguing my own political ideology.

There's no universal concensus on bigotry and racism. For example, many people firmly believe that only white people can even BE racists or bigots, and that it's impossible for people of color to be guilty of either.

There are those who think lit should ban the nc/r and t/i categories, because they find them offensive.
I'm in the camp of don't read it, or vote accordingly if you choose to.

I dare say you speak as someone who’s experienced neither bigotry nor racism, you probably wouldn’t consider it so subjective if you had
If you feel uncomfortable that this site forbids bigotry and hate speech, against any race or group, there is, unfortunately, no shortage of less inclusive sites where you may feel more at home

 

[Dodola]

I dare say you speak as someone who’s experienced neither bigotry nor racism, you probably wouldn’t consider it so subjective if you had
If you feel uncomfortable that this site forbids bigotry and hate speech, against any race or group, there is, unfortunately, no shortage of less inclusive sites where you may feel more at home

My, how non bigoted and non racist of you to say so, thank you.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I dare say you speak as someone who’s experienced neither bigotry nor racism, you probably wouldn’t consider it so subjective if you had
If you feel uncomfortable that this site forbids bigotry and hate speech, against any race or group, there is, unfortunately, no shortage of less inclusive sites where you may feel more at home

Define irony :

Claiming the sites with fewer restrictions on content are "less inclusive".

 

[Dodola]

I dare say you speak as someone who’s experienced neither bigotry nor racism, you probably wouldn’t consider it so subjective if you had
If you feel uncomfortable that this site forbids bigotry and hate speech, against any race or group, there is, unfortunately, no shortage of less inclusive sites where you may feel more at home

In my immediate family who will be here for Christmas, my sister, her husband and their two biracial sons, my other sister and her wife, who is also native American, christians and atheists, a white police officer, and my heterosexual white male brother. We know a little bit about bigotry and racism, and we unanimously reject it.

I think I'm qualified to have an opinion on it, so I think I'll stay.

 

[Inkognito1]

This may be the first time I’ve seen Schrödinger’s satire argued at book length.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This may be the first time I’ve seen Schrödinger’s satire argued at book length.

Welcome to the AH...

Around and around it goes...where it stops...no one knows!

 

[Inkognito1]

If anybody wanted a benchmark for what the "no politics" rule means, apparently this isn't political: https://www.literotica.com/s/ice-ice-baby-2

I was browsing Reddit and came across this post, and now I’m curious whether the story you linked is the same one this author got stuck with.


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