These guys should be shot

[TheeGoatPig]

It's been proven that capital punishment does not deter crime, let alone violent crime. Also, sentencing a prisoner to life in prison is a better allocation of resources than sentencing him to be executed.

No. But it stops that person from ever committing that type of crime again.

That is why I only support the death penalty only in cases of repeat offenses of rape and murder. Or one of each in separate crimes by the same person.

 

[cumallday]

No. But it stops that person from ever committing that type of crime again.

That is why I only support the death penalty only in cases of repeat offenses of rape and murder. Or one of each in separate crimes by the same person.

Yeah, I hear ya. Truth be told, if it were my mother and they forced me to rape her and then try and and blind me I 'd kill them all - Kill Bill style - planned, deliberate, methodical. However, and perhaps hypocritically, I cannot bring myself to endorse capital punishment. Perhaps I'm human and flawed for my capacity for forgiveness only extends as far as my capacity for revenge will allow. I guess it's true what they say - payback's a motherfucking bitch.

 

[R. Richard]

Why are we turning out so many disenfranchised and sociopathic youngsters? I have my theories but unfortunately no acceptable answers. (Then again maybe we need the unnaceptable answers.)

Cat

If you belong to a gang, you quickly realize that you have a problem. A 16-year-old can be tried as an adult for crimes such as murder. However, your gang runs a drug operation and you have to 'discourage' competition and/or theft of the money you make selling drugs. Thus, you recruit a few 14 to 15-year-olds and train them as shooters. If they get caught, not too much affair. They will normally get 90 days in juvie for what would be murder for an adult. By the time he gets to be 16-years-old, you have a sociopath who is now an OG (Original Gangsta'.) He goes out and finds another 14 to 15-year-old and the cycle continues.

I don't know if my answer is acceptable or unacceptable. However, it is how things are.

By the way, the attack on the mother and 12-year-old son was almost certainly not a drug related item, just a fall out from the kind of gangstas you find in the streets nowadays.

 

[cantdog]

The part about "rehabilitation" that bothers me is that means some will think the perps should be back on the streets in a few years.

Gang rape, force a 12 year old to watch, then have intercourse with his own mother, pour solvents into the 12 year olds eyes. Do you really want this person back on the streets? In a few years someone will proclaim him "Rehabbed", and that's exactly what will happen.

If you say that sexual abuse causes these monsters, think about the monster that they've just created in the 12 year old victim.

Perps, Jesus.

I would hope a fourteen year old would be back, as you say, on the street one day. You do not get to kill people, Wildcard. That's the rule. A child is not an adult. They may even 'choose' to do something, but they are neither experienced enough to fully realize nor mentally equipped to comprehend the meaning of their choice, not as a grown person is.

And of course I do not want to see a child's life thrown away. On the other hand, that is what some judge, abetted by some prison corporation and some guards, will likely do. Too many people involved in this system think as you do. They will waste his entire life, one way or another. There are lots of different kinds of sick bastards.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Perps, Jesus.

I would hope a fourteen year old would be back, as you say, on the street one day. You do not get to kill people, Wildcard. That's the rule. A child is not an adult. They may even 'choose' to do something, but they are neither experienced enough to fully realize nor mentally equipped to comprehend the meaning of their choice, not as a grown person is.

And of course I do not want to see a child's life thrown away. On the other hand, that is what some judge, abetted by some prison corporation and some guards, will likely do. Too many people involved in this system think as you do. They will waste his entire life, one way or another. There are lots of different kinds of sick bastards.

Let's face it, Cant, this guy made the choice. Fourteen is young, but it's old enough for him to know what he was doing.

As for "throwing a child's life away", I would many tines rather see him rot in prison for the rest of his life than be released and go out to do the same thing again. You may ask why I think he would do the same thing again. Because it's pretty certain he has done the same kind of thing before. How else would the cops been able to match his DNA so quickly?

 

[rgraham666]

In some cases no we do not have the village. Where has it gone?

Maybe it has vanished with the idea so many people have that they are entitled.

Entitled? Yes entitled. They have been taught that they don't have to work for something they don't have, they are entitled to it and therefore have no problem taking it. Hey if you are raised with the idea that you don't have to work for what you get, that you will just be given it, then you will act accordingly. (I can cite members of my family on this.)

Cat

This is my major problem. Not that I'm entitled to anything but the fact that 'You get what you earn' is a lie.

When I worked, and my illness wasn't in the way, I worked hard. It didn't matter.

What mattered was whether I stayed inside the lines. If I dressed properly, was properly respectful of those above me in the hierarchy, never talked back or questioned, held the proper opinions in bull sessions and other social interactions related to work, I got ahead.

Which meant I never got ahead as I can't do any of those things well. And trying to aggravated my illness.

I'm still trying to reconnect effort and reward in my mind. Without a great deal of success so far.

 

[S-Des]

Yeah, I hear ya. Truth be told, if it were my mother and they forced me to rape her and then try and and blind me I 'd kill them all - Kill Bill style - planned, deliberate, methodical. However, and perhaps hypocritically, I cannot bring myself to endorse capital punishment. Perhaps I'm human and flawed for my capacity for forgiveness only extends as far as my capacity for revenge will allow. I guess it's true what they say - payback's a motherfucking bitch.

It's not hypocritical at all (I'm not just saying that because it's my opinion too ). There is an enormous difference between an individual making a choice to seek out revenge (and pay the consequences himself, eventually) and the state taking someone who's been rendered helpless and executing them (often with evidence that is far less certain than it's supposed to be). It would be morally wrong to do so, but like everyone else, you have a choice.

The age of kids being charged as adults in these types of crimes has come down. I believe 14 is about as young as I've ever heard around here, but I wouldn't be shocked if it happened to someone even younger. I agree that they don't have the same capacity for understanding as someone older (which should be taken into account), but then again people mature at different rates, so someone older could make the same claim. The victim isn't harmed less because of the criminal's age, so they have to take their chances with the legal system. Their lawyer can make the argument about capacity for understanding and they can live with the results. No one can commit a crime like this without enough understanding to tell us that they will be dangerous for the rest of their lives.

 

[buxxxom]

What sort of punishment/rehabilitation would work on offenders of this age? Sending them to a juvenile detention center for a short sentence for a crime of this magnitude doesn't seem fair to the victims or to society, but sending them to prison to be housed with the general population, then released doesn't seem fair either. 14 is old enough to know the consequences of your actions, but not the long term ramifications of them.

This truly was a heinous crime, but no one lost their life, and one shouldn't be taken now either. I'm not an advocate for eliminating the death penalty, far from it, but I don't think this case warrants it.

 

[R. Richard]

What sort of punishment/rehabilitation would work on offenders of this age? Sending them to a juvenile detention center for a short sentence for a crime of this magnitude doesn't seem fair to the victims or to society, but sending them to prison to be housed with the general population, then released doesn't seem fair either. 14 is old enough to know the consequences of your actions, but not the long term ramifications of them.

There is a fairly simple answer to your question. What is needed is to take the 14-year-old child out of the gang environment. The child needs to be put into a juvie prison where he is:
1) forced to get up when the alarm goes off. (Many, perhaps most gang members don't live in households where there is a fixed schedule.)
2) forced to clean himself up and pass inspection. (Many, perhaps most gang members don't live in households where personal hygene is important.)
3) forced to make his bed.
4) forced to eat his breakfast in proper fashion. (Many, perhaps most gang members don't live in households where table manners are taught.)
5) forced to bus his breakfast dishes.
6) forced to do his morning class work every day. (It's a job.)
7) forced to eat his lunch in proper fashion.
8) forced to bus his lunch dishes.
9) forced to do his afternoon class work every day. (It's a job.)
10) forced to do homework. (It's a job.)
11) forced to eat his supper in proper fashion.
12) forced to bus his supper dishes.
13) forced to do more homework in any subject where he is not doing well. (It's a job.)
14) allowed to watch TV or listen to music after his homework is done.
15) forced to go to bed at a scheduled time.
16) forced to clean his room, once a week.
17) forced to do a 'job interview' once a week. (Most gang members don't have any experience with formal job interviews and no idea how to conduct themselves during such a job interview.)
18) forced to do certain other duties of normal living that would take too long to explain here.
19) failure to complete an assignment results in the remainder of the day in 'the hole.' That is absolute darkness with no talking allowed. Talking results in loud noise being broadcast through the darkened cell. The only thing that is allowed is for the prisoner to sit or lie quietly. (You have no idea how several hours in the dark scares the average gang member.)

The above program will work, but will never, ever be implemented. It is not because of a lack of resources, the class work can mostly be handled via computer. The guards can muscle the young hoodlums into the rest of the requirements. The 'dark room' will be fought by parents, but it works. The requirements are all normal items for a normal member of society.

Why will the program never be implemented?

 

[buxxxom]

Most of that sounds more like a preventative than a punishment. Most of those requirements are the things my parents expected of me, except for the job interview and "the hole." They work wonderfully keeping kids out of trouble in the first place, but I'm not sure they'd do a lot of good once they're in deep with the gangs. Also, how would the victims feel if that were implemented? There's no real punishment there. Doing what's right isn't a punishment.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Most of that sounds more like a preventative than a punishment. Most of those requirements are the things my parents expected of me, except for the job interview and "the hole." They work wonderfully keeping kids out of trouble in the first place, but I'm not sure they'd do a lot of good once they're in deep with the gangs. Also, how would the victims feel if that were implemented? There's no real punishment there. Doing what's right isn't a punishment.

To some people, it would be.

Actually, there would be too many people opposed to such a plan. Bleeding-Heart liberals would cry about "psychic trauma" to the little darlings, or some such BS. Hardline, Lock-em-up conservatives would feel it isn't punitive enough.

 

[buxxxom]

I'd never consider myself a hard line, lock-em up conservative, but I don't feel it's punitive enough.

 

[R. Richard]

Most of that sounds more like a preventative than a punishment. Most of those requirements are the things my parents expected of me, except for the job interview and "the hole." They work wonderfully keeping kids out of trouble in the first place, but I'm not sure they'd do a lot of good once they're in deep with the gangs. Also, how would the victims feel if that were implemented? There's no real punishment there. Doing what's right isn't a punishment.

You missed the point. "Most of those requirements are the things my parents expected of me" Yes, but the gang member's parents DON'T expect it of them. What I suggested is SUPPOSEDLY what the schools are offering [it's not.] However, the key is that the gang members are FORCED to do what is right in a juvie facility. A new habit pattern is picked up and it offers the gang member an alternative. The real key is the job interview. If a gang member can get a decent job, he at least has a chance to get out of the gang culture. No job, no hope.

It would not be punishment if you had to do it. If a gang mamber has to do it, it is punishment. What's right for you and what's right for a gang member are two completely different things. First of all, you have to understand that one of the primary reasons that a gang member can't get a decent job is the age old judgement, "Your face is too black." Since it is difficult to get a job with a black face and practically impossible to change the color of a face, gang members are drawn into crime because they have few other options. The program I am suggesting gives the gang members other choices.

The arguments against my program are the ones you presented, "There's no real punishment." However that's not the key argument against what I propose.

 

[R. Richard]

"Actually, there would be too many people opposed to such a plan. Bleeding-Heart liberals would cry about "psychic trauma" to the little darlings, or some such BS. Hardline, Lock-em-up conservatives would feel it isn't punitive enough."

You have summarized the arguments. However, the real fear is hidden beneath the surface.

 

[cloudy]

"Actually, there would be too many people opposed to such a plan. Bleeding-Heart liberals would cry about "psychic trauma" to the little darlings, or some such BS. Hardline, Lock-em-up conservatives would feel it isn't punitive enough."

You have summarized the arguments. However, the real fear is hidden beneath the surface.

I know y'all just love to think of "liberals" that way, and I hate to ruin your fun, but you're very wrong.

 

[buxxxom]

You missed the point. "Most of those requirements are the things my parents expected of me" Yes, but the gang member's parents DON'T expect it of them. What I suggested is SUPPOSEDLY what the schools are offering [it's not.] However, the key is that the gang members are FORCED to do what is right in a juvie facility. A new habit pattern is picked up and it offers the gang member an alternative. The real key is the job interview. If a gang member can get a decent job, he at least has a chance to get out of the gang culture. No job, no hope.

It would not be punishment if you had to do it. If a gang mamber has to do it, it is punishment. What's right for you and what's right for a gang member are two completely different things. First of all, you have to understand that one of the primary reasons that a gang member can't get a decent job is the age old judgement, "Your face is too black." Since it is difficult to get a job with a black face and practically impossible to change the color of a face, gang members are drawn into crime because they have few other options. The program I am suggesting gives the gang members other choices.

The arguments against my program are the ones you presented, "There's no real punishment." However that's not the key argument against what I propose.

It wouldn't be punishment for long, though. Not nearly long enough to satisfy the needs of those who would see them endure harsher punishments, those whom they defiled. What you suggest would certainly be beneficial, and definitely rehabilitative, but is that enough?

 

[R. Richard]

I know y'all just love to think of "liberals" that way, and I hate to ruin your fun, but you're very wrong.

The characterization of "bleeding-heart liberals" was not mine. However, I have some experience with juvie facilities. The idea of solitary confinement in the dark is a non-starter with liberals. Solitary confinement in the dark is unusually effective for gang member types. They live in a very person connect world and putting them in a situation where they are all alone and can't even see what is around them is a very effective punishment that only rarely has to be repeated.

 

[R. Richard]

It wouldn't be punishment for long, though. Not nearly long enough to satisfy the needs of those who would see them endure harsher punishments, those whom they defiled. What you suggest would certainly be beneficial, and definitely rehabilitative, but is that enough?

It depends if you want rehabilitation or vengeance. You have no idea of how much punishment a fixed schedule and regular, hard classes is for the typical gang member. What you think of as a normal matter is beyond the experience of the typical gang member.

 

[buxxxom]

It depends if you want rehabilitation or vengeance. You have no idea of how much punishment a fixed schedule and regular, hard classes is for the typical gang member. What you think of as a normal matter is beyond the experience of the typical gang member.

I would want justice. Vengeance is not mine to dole out. If you can have justice and rehabilitation, I'm all for that.

Conversely, what is normal for a gang member is beyond the scope of my experience.

 

[R. Richard]

I would want justice. Vengeance is not mine to dole out. If you can have justice and rehabilitation, I'm all for that.

Conversely, what is normal for a gang member is beyond the scope of my experience.

If you stop and think about it, if you get real rehabilitation, you automatically get justice.

I used to sell the vengeance thing and, for really quite a reasonable price, vengeance could have been yours to [indirectly] dole out.

Very few people, including most gang members, really have any idea what is normal for a gang member. Most people have no idea how a gang actually functions and most gang members are too stupid to really understand. I had to understand, in order to survive. [Many of the gang members who did not understand, did not survive.]

 

[Vermilion]

If you stop and think about it, if you get real rehabilitation, you automatically get justice.

I used to sell the vengeance thing and, for really quite a reasonable price, vengeance could have been yours to [indirectly] dole out.

Very few people, including most gang members, really have any idea what is normal for a gang member. Most people have no idea how a gang actually functions and most gang members are too stupid to really understand. I had to understand, in order to survive. [Many of the gang members who did not understand, did not survive.]

Not a criticism, I'm genuinely curious, what experience do you have with 'gang members'... why do you claim to know so much?

I know that sounds a bit snotty and accusatory, but I can't find a better way to phrase it, so please accept my assurances that my tone of voice is just interested.

x
V

 

[angelicminx]

There is a fairly simple answer to your question. What is needed is to take the 14-year-old child out of the gang environment. The child needs to be put into a juvie prison where he is:
1) forced to get up when the alarm goes off. (Many, perhaps most gang members don't live in households where there is a fixed schedule.)
2) forced to clean himself up and pass inspection. (Many, perhaps most gang members don't live in households where personal hygene is important.)
3) forced to make his bed.
4) forced to eat his breakfast in proper fashion. (Many, perhaps most gang members don't live in households where table manners are taught.)
5) forced to bus his breakfast dishes.
6) forced to do his morning class work every day. (It's a job.)
7) forced to eat his lunch in proper fashion.
8) forced to bus his lunch dishes.
9) forced to do his afternoon class work every day. (It's a job.)
10) forced to do homework. (It's a job.)
11) forced to eat his supper in proper fashion.
12) forced to bus his supper dishes.
13) forced to do more homework in any subject where he is not doing well. (It's a job.)
14) allowed to watch TV or listen to music after his homework is done.
15) forced to go to bed at a scheduled time.
16) forced to clean his room, once a week.
17) forced to do a 'job interview' once a week. (Most gang members don't have any experience with formal job interviews and no idea how to conduct themselves during such a job interview.)
18) forced to do certain other duties of normal living that would take too long to explain here.
19) failure to complete an assignment results in the remainder of the day in 'the hole.' That is absolute darkness with no talking allowed. Talking results in loud noise being broadcast through the darkened cell. The only thing that is allowed is for the prisoner to sit or lie quietly. (You have no idea how several hours in the dark scares the average gang member.)

The above program will work, but will never, ever be implemented. It is not because of a lack of resources, the class work can mostly be handled via computer. The guards can muscle the young hoodlums into the rest of the requirements. The 'dark room' will be fought by parents, but it works. The requirements are all normal items for a normal member of society.

Why will the program never be implemented?

I found this to be a very interesting proposal, and I do believe it would work. I would also want 'them' to be punished in addition to this. I liked this idea, very much:

...

As for the punishment for those who have truly commited these crimes. No the death penalty is not it. (Even though I too am an advocate for the death penalty.) Personally I think their punishment should be a very public and very demeaning punishment. One that will make them suffer and make others think about it as well. We're not talking about castration. I'm talking about those truly disgusting jobs as well as those that are physically uncomfortable. Make them do this for an extended period of time.

I'm talking about things like cleaning the public sewers with buckets and hand trowels. I'm talking about cleaning up the Doggie Bombs and other nasties that collect on the public beaches, while wearing bringhtly clored Jumpsuits and maybe rubber gloves. I'm talking the cleaning up of demolition rubble by hand.

You have an oil spill on the beach? These are the guys to clean it up.

You see some guys doing the truly dirty and nasty work while wearing brightly colored Jumpsuits with the words Cruel and Unusual on them? Check out what they have done.

Have a website dedicated to them, and show what they go through. Advertise it. Show them on a Reality Show. Show what they deal with on a daily basis along with their rehab.

Cat

I think this might actually work. Public humiliation. Hmm. There might be a downside to this, but I can't think of it at the moment.


You're right though, Richard, it will never be implemented. Most likely because of those that would cry psychological abuse.

 

[Just-Legal]

Not a criticism, I'm genuinely curious, what experience do you have with 'gang members'... why do you claim to know so much?

I know that sounds a bit snotty and accusatory, but I can't find a better way to phrase it, so please accept my assurances that my tone of voice is just interested.

x
V

Mil - See RR's post earlier in the thread about where he grew up.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

It's been proven that capital punishment does not deter crime, let alone violent crime. Also, sentencing a prisoner to life in prison is a better allocation of resources than sentencing him to be executed.

Not true. That's just another myth. Read this link.

Death penalty

 

[Wildcard Ky]

"It takes a village to raise a child."

We no longer have the village.

I also think there's some people that think the village should raise their child instead of them doing it themselves.