Third-person objective

[Serafina1210]

Third person objective is so much like the impersonal camera of porn I see no reason to use it. The difference between erotica and porn is that deep, emotional, inner transformative dive. When you take away access to a protoganist's head, their journey, what is left? Clinical, physical acts.

Could I write in that voice? Yeah, sure. But why? Why would I do that? Why alienate and anger everyone. It's nutty.

The interesting challenge is to deliver that "deep, emotional, inner transformative dive" using the kind of signaling that we in fact use with each other, without being mind readers, and that a really good film director--not a porn director--knows how to use to get the audience into the characters' heads. Read Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants," a tiny classic, to see the possibilities.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

As a rule LITERBUG writers cant see the goddamned forest for the trees. POV is entirely adjusting the text tween navel gazing and star gazing.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not sure if it is exactly the POV discussed, but the excerpt in post#2070

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=569279&page=83

 

[Carnal_Flower]

You should post this is a mini-writing challenge. It'd be fun to try a 1000 word or less challenge in this style. I'm game

Bonus points if you don't use dialogue.

I've been experimenting with third-person objective narration--that is, the narrator doesn't report the thoughts or feelings of any of the characters. Well known examples of this kind of narration are Dashiell Hammett's The Maltese Falcon and Ernest Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants."

My assumption has been that you can't write a decent erotic story in third-person objective because erotica depends so much on getting the reader into the characters' feelings. But getting characters' feelings across through their words, facial expressions, and body language is a thing we all do--and filmmakers pretty much have to do it that way, unless they resort to a whole lot of voice-over narration. So why not?

I found myself doing a sort of borderline cheating as I went on, for example using a word like "cautiously" that could describe either a manner or a mental state, or having the narrator drop a fact that could but doesn't have to be from the character's head. A little example, and then with any luck we can have some conversation about craft (my favorite conversations here):



So have you tried third-person objective narration? Do you have favorite examples of it?

 

[Serafina1210]

Not sure if it is exactly the POV discussed, but the excerpt in post#2070

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=569279&page=83

Very close, I think, except for the first paragraph, which has a good bit of Jimmy's POV in it.

Where an individual POV crops up elsewhere, the trick might be to ask, "how does he look if he's feeling that way?" So in the para beginning "A shape suddenly," for "Marco aimed his gun, then stared in surprise," try perhaps "Marco aimed his gun and his eyes widened."

Farther down, "Sudden chills rippled down his spine" describes a sensation. Again, what does you look like if a chill runs down your spine? Your posture stiffens maybe, or freezes.

(Note that I'm not suggesting improvements, but only what the passage might look like if it were in third-person objective.)

 

[Serafina1210]

You should post this is a mini-writing challenge. It'd be fun to try a 1000 word or less challenge in this style. I'm game

Bonus points if you don't use dialogue.

Interesting. Maybe I'll post a challenge later today.

 

[Handley_Page]

Third person objective is so much like the impersonal camera of porn I see no reason to use it. The difference between erotica and porn is that deep, emotional, inner transformative dive. When you take away access to a protoganist's head, their journey, what is left? Clinical, physical acts.

Could I write in that voice? Yeah, sure. But why? Why would I do that? Why alienate and anger everyone. It's nutty.

Surely, that depends upon how you handle the character's dialogue, which can indicate the feelings.

 

[PervOtaku]

I've been experimenting with third-person objective narration--that is, the narrator doesn't report the thoughts or feelings of any of the characters. Well known examples of this kind of narration are Dashiell Hammett's The Maltese Falcon and Ernest Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants."

My assumption has been that you can't write a decent erotic story in third-person objective because erotica depends so much on getting the reader into the characters' feelings. But getting characters' feelings across through their words, facial expressions, and body language is a thing we all do--and filmmakers pretty much have to do it that way, unless they resort to a whole lot of voice-over narration. So why not?

I found myself doing a sort of borderline cheating as I went on, for example using a word like "cautiously" that could describe either a manner or a mental state, or having the narrator drop a fact that could but doesn't have to be from the character's head. A little example, and then with any luck we can have some conversation about craft (my favorite conversations here):

So have you tried third-person objective narration? Do you have favorite examples of it?

I did this deliberately in this story
https://www.literotica.com/s/poison-sumacs-rapevine
in order to give it the tone of a comic book. Dispassionate narration, but plenty of internal monologues. It was very unusual to write that way, and I think I'm glad it was a short story.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Third person objective is so much like the impersonal camera of porn I see no reason to use it. The difference between erotica and porn is that deep, emotional, inner transformative dive. When you take away access to a protoganist's head, their journey, what is left? Clinical, physical acts.

TPO certainly isn't my default choice for erotica, but there are situations where it's appropriate.

A lot of tension can come from not knowing what the protagonists are thinking - is John telling the truth when he says he loves Jill, or is he just trying to seduce her? (And while you're trying to figure that out, perhaps you won't notice that Jill's actually playing him.)

It can also be a worthwhile challenge. Instead of dropping into Jane's head and telling the reader "Jane loved Judy more than anything" can you show that through Jane's behaviour?

 

[7LivesManyFaces]

Third-person objective--the narrator has no access to the thoughts or feelings of the characters. You might almost say there is no point of view (though the narrative "camera" may perch on some character's shoulder).

Standard third-person with a point of view might say:



or, in free indirect style:



But instead, third-person objective reports only what another person present at the scene could experience with her own senses--mostly what the characters do and say. So:

Hi. I just submitted my first story ever and thought it was narrated in "third-person." It has very few quotes about what the characters are saying. It pretty much describes the scenes, including having full access to what all characters involved are feeling and thinking.

Would this be considered indirect style? I'm embarrassed to say I misunderstood what 'third person' narration is.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hi. I just submitted my first story ever and thought it was narrated in "third-person." It has very few quotes about what the characters are saying. It pretty much describes the scenes, including having full access to what all characters involved are feeling and thinking.

Would this be considered indirect style? I'm embarrassed to say I misunderstood what 'third person' narration is.

That sounds like third person, but not "third person objective".

In brief:

If the narration has "I" statements (other than in character speech), it's first person: "I saw the tiger approaching."

If the narration has "you" statements (other than in character speech, and it's not first person, it's second-person: "You see the tiger approaching". Rarely used outside interactive fiction ("choose your own adventure" etc.) Stories that are told in a mix of "I" and "you" are first person, but have a lot of the same drawbacks as second-person, and sometimes get called "pseudo-second-person" here.

If the narration isn't first or second, it's third person, but there are different flavours of third person.

Third person close is where the narrative only shows one character's viewpoint, possibly including their thoughts (but not anybody else's). "Amy saw the tiger; a thrill of fear ran through her, and she saw Judy's face turn white." We can see inside Amy's head, but our only way of knowing Judy's state of mind is through objective clues.

Third person objective is where the narrative doesn't show anybody's thoughts; this might also be close, but doesn't have to be. "Amy's knuckles went white, and Judy turned pale."

Third person omniscient is where we can see everybody's viewpoint and thoughts: "Amy saw the tiger and wondered if she was going to get out of this one alive; Judy was still thinking about yesterday's lunch."

 

[7LivesManyFaces]

That sounds like third person, but not "third person objective".

In brief:

If the narration has "I" statements (other than in character speech), it's first person: "I saw the tiger approaching."

If the narration has "you" statements (other than in character speech, and it's not first person, it's second-person: "You see the tiger approaching". Rarely used outside interactive fiction ("choose your own adventure" etc.) Stories that are told in a mix of "I" and "you" are first person, but have a lot of the same drawbacks as second-person, and sometimes get called "pseudo-second-person" here.

If the narration isn't first or second, it's third person, but there are different flavours of third person.

Third person close is where the narrative only shows one character's viewpoint, possibly including their thoughts (but not anybody else's). "Amy saw the tiger; a thrill of fear ran through her, and she saw Judy's face turn white." We can see inside Amy's head, but our only way of knowing Judy's state of mind is through objective clues.

Third person objective is where the narrative doesn't show anybody's thoughts; this might also be close, but doesn't have to be. "Amy's knuckles went white, and Judy turned pale."

Third person omniscient is where we can see everybody's viewpoint and thoughts: "Amy saw the tiger and wondered if she was going to get out of this one alive; Judy was still thinking about yesterday's lunch."

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[NotWise]

I'm sure I posted this earlier and it didn't show up. The beer next to me witnessed the whole thing and it is willing to testify.

I'm writing a story that is in third person limited, but there is an involved scene written from a voyeur's point of view, so that scene is effectively objective. I was worried that it would come off like the impersonal porn camera--as someone earlier in the thread suggested.

I've fought with it and I think that with good characters and good observations of action, and motion, and spoken word that it can work.

At least I hope it can. We'll see.

 

[Serafina1210]

I'm sure I posted this earlier and it didn't show up. The beer next to me witnessed the whole thing and it is willing to testify.

I'm writing a story that is in third person limited, but there is an involved scene written from a voyeur's point of view, so that scene is effectively objective. I was worried that it would come off like the impersonal porn camera--as someone earlier in the thread suggested.

I've fought with it and I think that with good characters and good observations of action, and motion, and spoken word that it can work.

At least I hope it can. We'll see.

Good luck to you. A camera doesn't have to deliver porn. It doesn't have to focus on the characters' genitals; it can see the expressions on their faces, their body language, etc. And if the camera is perched on the shoulder of your voyeur, and it's not describing his or her thoughts, it can still deliver a lot of information about the experience of watching.