Thoughts on a "List of Ingredients" in story notes?

[PennyThompson]

Hey, everybody!

Yesterday I received an upsetting reader comment on my most recent story. It's fine, I processed it with a couple of other writers I trust, I wrote a response that I feel pretty good about, though my comment hasn't been approved yet. (Edited for clarity)

But the comment made me think long and hard about how to ensure my readers don't get blindsided by story content that they might not want to engage with, or that might be triggering to them. I'm not looking to censor myself, I'm going to try and tell the story that I want to tell. But I also don't want to cause any harm to a reader!

I want to make a batch of peanut butter cookies, but I don't want to give somebody an allergic reaction.

I think I'm going to start including a brief content warning in my author's notes at the top of each story, and I'm thinking about it in terms of an "Ingredients List" like you'd find at a nice restaurant. Not making any assumptions about the patron's tastes, preferences, or allergies, just giving them enough information to make an informed decision for themselves.

What I'm wondering is, how much detail is the right amount for an Ingredients List? Some obvious ones to me would be things like dom/sub content, types of sex acts being performed, sex/gender combinations in a scene, and what I would think of as significant kink or fetish content.

But how much is too much, and how much is not enough? What are some elements that might not occur to most people, but could be a real problem for some readers? Does anyone have a system or practice that they like to use for this sort of thing?

I don't want to spoiler the story for readers either, any tips for providing "nutrition information" without spoiling the meal?

 

[Britva415]

I received an upsetting comment on my most recent story. It's fine, I processed it with a couple of other writers I trust, I wrote a response that I feel pretty good about, hopefully it will get published soon

Not a comment from a reader? You mean a comment from the story moderator?

 

[PennyThompson]

Sorry, no, a reader comment on a published story!

I meant that I was waiting for my responding comment to be published soon.

 

[Britva415]

Anyway, to answer the question, I just list the story tags at the top of the story. I can't count on people looking at the tags before reading the story, so, they're in the body of the story before the story starts.

 

[Britva415]

Sorry, no, a reader comment! I meant, hopefully my responding comment will get published soon!

Oh! I thought you mean the story getting published.

 

[mildlyaroused]

You'll find people in this forum who think any form of author's note or content warning is a self-serving form of pandering to the readers exclusively included in the hopes of achieving high scores and better feedback.

I don't hold that opinion. I think a brief content warning or foreword can go a long way to make readers happy. Neither the reader nor the author gains anything if the reader starts the story and ends up hating it because of some personal gripe with the kinks or style.

 

[Imakewetspots]

Every now and then, I read a story and out of nowhere, certain content comes up that I wasn’t expecting based on the title, description, category. Not often, but a couple times I just clicked out of it. I often struggle to find the ideal category so I can see how stuff like this sneaks in.

For me, it’s not necessarily the content itself, it’s the fact that it was totally unexpected.

Probably a terrible example but if I’m in the mood to read something romantic and it’s starts off with someone drinking someone else’s urine, I immediately cringe and get out. I would never leave a negative comment and I don’t vote unless I finish it. I’m reading erotica so I have to have tough enough skin to just move on without poo-pooing stuff others may appreciate.

Oddly enough, if I read a BDSM story and that comes up, I might not get excited by it but it is not totally out of left field either since some BDSM has that content. So I push through hoping it gets better.

So for me it’s not content as much as context.

Honestly though, you shouldn’t overdo it. These days, it seems like everyone has triggers about something and it’s unreasonable for you to know what they are. I think I was watching a show recently and it had a disclaimer that it contained violence. It’s a show about pirates so it better have violence!

 

[PennyThompson]

I often struggle to find the ideal category so I can see how stuff like this sneaks in.

omg, that is a WHOLE nother conversation! I started in SciFi & Fantasy, but felt completely out of place surrounded by aliens and elves and vampires.

Lately I've been shooting my shot in Erotic Couplings, and I've been mostly happy with the results, but it's such a generic category I worry about adding too many peanuts and sprinkles into the plain sugar cookies

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think I'm going to start including a brief content warning in my author's notes at the top of each story, and I'm thinking about it in terms of an "Ingredients List" like you'd find at a nice restaurant. Not making any assumptions about the patron's tastes, preferences, or allergies, just giving them enough information to make an informed decision for themselves.

This comes up often, and you won't find consensus. I get the concern about triggering content, but the category and tag system should be enough to steer people away from content they're not going to like. Then there's the point that this is an adult website, and readers should act like adults and manage themselves and what they read.

What I'm wondering is, how much detail is the right amount for an Ingredients List? Some obvious ones to me would be things like dom/sub content, types of sex acts being performed, sex/gender combinations in a scene, and what I would think of as significant kink or fetish content.

My view is that even that short list is too much. Categories and tags give fair warning, and it's down to readers (if they're that delicate) to use them.

Putting an ingredients list up front defeats the purpose of telling the story. Why would you bother reading it, if you know what's going to happen?

 

[Imakewetspots]

omg, that is a WHOLE nother conversation! I started in SciFi & Fantasy, but felt completely out of place surrounded by aliens and elves and vampires.

Lately I've been shooting my shot in Erotic Couplings, and I've been mostly happy with the results, but it's such a generic category I worry about adding too many peanuts and sprinkles into the plain sugar cookies

I just looked up your stories so I can check them out for myself. Holy crap! You’re hitting home runs based on the ratings. I can’t wait to check them out!

I think you may be setting too high of a standard for yourself. To get a 4.9 in a story is like legendary. If you’re holding out for a perfect 5, I wouldn’t worry about it.

I find the sci fi thing interesting. I’m not into monsters and weird shit like that but it’s a category where you can world build and no one can say, ‘no way! Girls don’t have three boobs.’ It’s your world and they do if you want them too! Lol

I wrote a sci fi story which was basically a dude getting abducted by hot babes. It was just a pure, let’s have fun with it kind of story and it was well received.

The thing if noticed in that category is it doesn’t get the clicks so very narrow audience. Mature on the other hand gets zillions of views.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Every now and then, I read a story and out of nowhere, certain content comes up that I wasn’t expecting based on the title, description, category. Not often, but a couple times I just clicked out of it. I often struggle to find the ideal category so I can see how stuff like this sneaks in.

For me, it’s not necessarily the content itself, it’s the fact that it was totally unexpected.

This is certainly a factor. I have a story in Romance that includes some downer themes people might not expect to find in that category (covid, dementia, death of a partner). While those are very much part of the romance - "in sickness or in health" - I know it's a comfort genre for a lot of people and I'm not there to sour somebody's day. The "death of a partner" bit is signalled in the opening of the story anyway, but for the other two I included a note before the story itself.

OTOH, I didn't warn for the story being a same-sex romance, because it feels like a double standard to be flagging for queer content if we're not flagging for straight content. That one fell into the "readers can suck it up and deal" basket.

 

[Deleted member 6873114]

Hey, everybody!

Yesterday I received an upsetting reader comment on my most recent story. It's fine, I processed it with a couple of other writers I trust, I wrote a response that I feel pretty good about, though my comment hasn't been approved yet. (Edited for clarity)

But the comment made me think long and hard about how to ensure my readers don't get blindsided by story content that they might not want to engage with, or that might be triggering to them. I'm not looking to censor myself, I'm going to try and tell the story that I want to tell. But I also don't want to cause any harm to a reader!

I want to make a batch of peanut butter cookies, but I don't want to give somebody an allergic reaction.

I think I'm going to start including a brief content warning in my author's notes at the top of each story, and I'm thinking about it in terms of an "Ingredients List" like you'd find at a nice restaurant. Not making any assumptions about the patron's tastes, preferences, or allergies, just giving them enough information to make an informed decision for themselves.

What I'm wondering is, how much detail is the right amount for an Ingredients List? Some obvious ones to me would be things like dom/sub content, types of sex acts being performed, sex/gender combinations in a scene, and what I would think of as significant kink or fetish content.

But how much is too much, and how much is not enough? What are some elements that might not occur to most people, but could be a real problem for some readers? Does anyone have a system or practice that they like to use for this sort of thing?

I don't want to spoiler the story for readers either, any tips for providing "nutrition information" without spoiling the meal?

I think you should only concern yourself with posting information that you feel is a fair general thumbnail of the topic. You can never please everyone and it is a fool's mission to try. We live in a world where people are "allergic" to just about anything and everything. Being politically correct is painful and impossible. So if people start reading and discover there is something that turns them off... they can self-eject and filter themselves out of the reading.

 

[Imakewetspots]

I think you should only concern yourself with posting information that you feel is a fair general thumbnail of the topic. You can never please everyone and it is a fool's mission to try. We live in a world where people are "allergic" to just about anything and everything. Being politically correct is painful and impossible. So if people start reading and discover there is something that turns them off... they can self-eject and filter themselves out of the reading.

Precisely!

 

[THBGato]

Why would you bother reading it, if you know what's going to happen?

Really? How often have you read a story here and not known within a few paragraphs what's going to happen YET still enjoyed it?

I mean, people still watch Romeo & Juliet even though Shakespeare tells us in the prologue what's going to happen.

Knowing the ingredients doesn't matter because it's all about HOW they are put together.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Really? How often have you read a story here and not known within a few paragraphs what's going to happen YET still enjoyed it?

I mean, people still watch Romeo & Juliet even though Shakespeare tells us in the prologue what's going to happen.

Knowing the ingredients doesn't matter because it's all about HOW they are put together.

Yeah, but a list of the kinks and the "you might not like these themes" - it's an apology almost, I might upset you. I guess for me it's the nanny state thing - adults on an adult website shouldn't need looking after.

 

[TheLobster]

omg, that is a WHOLE nother conversation! I started in SciFi & Fantasy, but felt completely out of place surrounded by aliens and elves and vampires.

I read through your first story and it did feel a little strange to me that you put it in SF&F. If I were you I’d have picked Transgender & Crossdresser category; the more mundane futanari work seems to be well-received there, as evidenced by the one story I put there.

OTOH, I didn't warn for the story being a same-sex romance, because it feels like a double standard to be flagging for queer content if we're not flagging for straight content.

Tags should normally take care of it. I’d still add a blurb saying to at least look at said tags, though. An average reader would be surprised, I think, to see an unmarked same-sex story in Romance.

 

[Britva415]

the category and tag system should be enough to steer people away from content they're not going to like

People often don't see tags before reading the story. Many don't even know that you can do so.

 

[Britva415]

I’d still add a blurb saying to at least look at said tags

or one could just add the list of tags instead of writing the blurb

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yeah, but a list of the kinks and the "you might not like these themes" - it's an apology almost, I might upset you. I guess for me it's the nanny state thing - adults on an adult website shouldn't need looking after.

If I tell somebody "mind the step", to save them from tripping over something they might not have seen coming, I am not apologising for the step.

 

[TheLobster]

or one could just add the list of tags instead of writing the blurb

Yes, either way works. It’s a shame the UI makes it so awkward to even see the tags that such reminders feel necessary.

 

[Bazzle]

This comes up often, and you won't find consensus. I get the concern about triggering content, but the category and tag system should be enough to steer people away from content they're not going to like. Then there's the point that this is an adult website, and readers should act like adults and manage themselves and what they read.

My view is that even that short list is too much. Categories and tags give fair warning, and it's down to readers (if they're that delicate) to use them.

Putting an ingredients list up front defeats the purpose of telling the story. Why would you bother reading it, if you know what's going to happen?

the tags need a louder presence in places? For example in the new list? It's all very well saying a story is tagged, but you need a few clicks to find them? That's why ingredient triggers in the first paragraph I think are useful?

 

[alohadave]

Yeah, but a list of the kinks and the "you might not like these themes" - it's an apology almost, I might upset you. I guess for me it's the nanny state thing - adults on an adult website shouldn't need looking after.

I don't understand why you think that readers must go into all stories blind, and that any kind of warning is a commentary on authors and readers sensibilities.

It's just very strange to me that informing readers of what to expect is some kind of sin that should be avoided at all costs. Do you avoid using tags and categories as well to avoid giving them any kind of clue as to what they will be reading?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

But how much is too much, and how much is not enough? What are some elements that might not occur to most people, but could be a real problem for some readers? Does anyone have a system or practice that they like to use for this sort of thing?

If you have to protect your scores and feedback that badly, list everything in detail and apologize for all of your squicks up front.

If you want to tell a story that unfolds naturally and has no spoilers, the tags work well enough. There is no need to hold anyone's hand.

You can't fully do both. The more that you warn up front, the less impact your story will have as it reads. There is no magic pill. How much is too much? No one can tell you. That's all up to you.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

the tags need a louder presence in places? For example in the new list? It's all very well saying a story is tagged, but you need a few clicks to find them? That's why ingredient triggers in the first paragraph I think are useful?

Not true. It is just as easy to find tags as it is to read a spoiler slug up front. Okay, it's ONE lousy extra click. If you are that scared that a reader will downvote you because he's so FUCKING LAZY to click the tag icon on the side of the top of the first page, maybe you are a little bit paranoid?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If I tell somebody "mind the step", to save them from tripping over something they might not have seen coming, I am not apologising for the step.

Who put the step there?