Thoughts on a "List of Ingredients" in story notes?

[pink_silk_glove]

You'll find people in this forum who think any form of author's note or content warning is a self-serving form of pandering to the readers exclusively included in the hopes of achieving high scores and better feedback.

I don't hold that opinion. I think a brief content warning or foreword can go a long way to make readers happy. Neither the reader nor the author gains anything if the reader starts the story and ends up hating it because of some personal gripe with the kinks or style.

You don't agree with the notion in your first paragraph but your second paragraph totally supports that notion.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Use the tags and if you feel there is something that is outside the genre you are writing to, then put in a note.
@Devinter uses one that basically says, you may want to consider checking the tags. You give the reader a heads up, but no spoilers.

It's really no different than the MPAA ratings. This movie is rated R for... and then they list why. It doesn't spoil anything but if you don't like lots of violence you know to look elsewhere.

 

[PennyThompson]

Putting an ingredients list up front defeats the purpose of telling the story. Why would you bother reading it, if you know what's going to happen?

Well, if "Contains cis lesbian sex, embarrassment, foot stuff" is all you need to be satisfied, I guess that's cool, very efficient

We live in a world where people are "allergic" to just about anything and everything. Being politically correct is painful and impossible.

I guess I don't really know what that means. Yeah, people are "allergic" to different things, because everyone is their own universe. I don't feel the need to censor myself, but I also don't feel the need to needlessly hurt someone else. I think I can manage to do both!

I read through your first story and it did feel a little strange to me that you put it in SF&F. If I were you I’d have picked Transgender & Crossdresser category; the more mundane futanari work seems to be well-received there, as evidenced by the one story I put there.

I decided early on to stay far away from the Trans & Crossdresser category. There's a lot of stuff in there that I don't want to be part of, lots of fetishization and objectification of real people, lots of chaser stuff, lots of pretty transphobic crap that I'm not interested in. Not to say that it's all like that, there are some really thoughtful, empathetic writers in that category! But it's not for me.

Anyways, I appreciate the diverse opinions here. I think I have a plan to move forward, hearing thoughts from different ends of the spectrum helped me clarify my own thinking quite a bit. Thank you!

 

[Katie_Mae]

As a reader, I appreciate knowing what a story is about prior to reading it. There's a HUGE amount of stories to read and I don't want to waste time on a story I'm not interested in. I also appreciate the more chatty author's notes, the "thanks for the comments... my surgery went as planned but the next few chapters will be a little slow as I'm recovering..." as it's nice to feel you are 'connecting' to an author.

Books are allowed to have a blurb, reviews, an author's note, a dedication etc. Films are allowed content warnings, trailers, age ratings and so on. I see no reason why an author on lit shouldn't be allowed any of these things in an author's note. The good news is that they ARE allowed!

There are literally tags that the site doesn't allow. Eg, I believe you are not allowed to tag a story 'suicide" or "death" or "self harm" so if you want to warn a reader that your story contains these themes and perhaps include that if they have these thoughts they can call lifeline etc, the only way to do that is to put it in a note.

I have an acquaintance who became quite ill after watching something that had strobing lights that didn't have a warning on it. As a consumer, I'd rather have the presence of strobing lights "spoilt" for me, than have someone else become unwell because the creator was too precious to put a content warning. Likewise, I'd rather have it be "spoilt" that a story contains strong suicidal themes than have someone self harm etc...

This topic comes occasionally, and you see a few reoccurring opinions:

• Any form of writing that is not the actual story, title, 60 character description or tags should not be there and always makes the story worse. The author would only include this to raise their ratings (why making a story worse would raise ratings, I don't know)
• Having a tag saying "anal" informs 100% of your readers that the story contains anal sex, and it does not spoil your story. Having an author's note "this story contains anal sex" is a spoiler because now readers know the story contains anal sex. Why tags are not a spoiler if everyone reads them, I don't know.
• All creators (writers etc) have no compassion and would never genuinely want their readers not to be harmed. The only reason a writer would include a warning was to protect themselves from other's harming them, such as through hateful comments. If someone says they do actually care about others, then we can know they don't, because this is a horrible world where no one has any genuine care or compassion for anyone.
• Some readers, like me, appreciate and enjoy content from the author outside of the title, description and tags.

At the end of the day, some people are strongly against this, some are pro and some just don't care. I'd recommend you do what feels right to you.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't understand why you think that readers must go into all stories blind, and that any kind of warning is a commentary on authors and readers sensibilities.

It's just very strange to me that informing readers of what to expect is some kind of sin that should be avoided at all costs. Do you avoid using tags and categories as well to avoid giving them any kind of clue as to what they will be reading?

Categories and Tags do that already, they're not going in blind.

If people don't know how to use Literotica, if they don't know how to manage their triggers, you expect me to do that for them? I'm not going to second guess everyone's squicks, which essentially is what people are trying to do with content warnings.

Adults on an adult website, or maybe write nicer content so you don't need sensitivity warnings in the first place? Too controversial?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Well, if "Contains cis lesbian sex, embarrassment, foot stuff" is all you need to be satisfied, I guess that's cool, very efficient

Gosh, you do have delicate readers, if those are your warnings

 

[mildlyaroused]

You don't agree with the notion in your first paragraph but your second paragraph totally supports that notion.

Not really. Wanting to give readers the best experience possible doesn't always stem from the desire to protect scores or reduce negative feedback. It's just a courtesy which you can choose to provide if you want to.

But I know your stance: we can agree to disagree.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Not really. Wanting to give readers the best experience possible doesn't always stem from the desire to protect scores or reduce negative feedback. It's just a courtesy which you can choose to provide if you want to.

But I know your stance: we can agree to disagree.

Great point. Readers come here to be entertained and tittiliated. They want to find entertainment that matches their interests, there is nothing wrong with that.
There is a great deal of hypocrisy here in that kink shaming is the ultimate sin around here, but how dare anyone not like a particular kink.

If you like to read MM sex, wonderful. There is nothing wrong with you.
If you don't like to read MM sex, wonderful. There is nothing wrong with you.
Same goes for every other kink out there.
People should seek out the things they enjoy, and the more information we can provide to steer them in the right direction the better.

 

[alohadave]

Categories and Tags do that already, they're not going in blind.

If people don't know how to use Literotica, if they don't know how to manage their triggers, you expect me to do that for them? I'm not going to second guess everyone's squicks, which essentially is what people are trying to do with content warnings.

Adults on an adult website, or maybe write nicer content so you don't need sensitivity warnings in the first place? Too controversial?

So how are tags and categories any different? If you aren't holding anyone's hand at an adult site, why give them any guidance at all?

 

[Naughtylit81]

I list non-vanilla, potentially upsetting, and category a-typical kinks in an authors note at the forefront of stories.

My first series was a raceplay story that prominently features racial slurs so I make that clear since "contains n-word" isn't a tag.

Another which features incest in a non-incest category has that mentioned.

I see nothing wrong with giving readers a heads up. Keeps them from wasting their time or upsetting someone with a topics they do not want to read about for whatever reason.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Any form of writing that is not the actual story, title, 60 character description or tags should not be there and always makes the story worse. The author would only include this to raise their ratings (why making a story worse would raise ratings, I don't know)

Because most voters aren't rating your story on its quality. They are rating your story on whether or not they agree with how it is presented and/or it matches their fantasy. These voters for the most part actually like spoilers. So if you cater to this majority of voters who want to know the story before they read it, you are absolutely protecting the score.

Having a tag saying "anal" informs 100% of your readers that the story contains anal sex, and it does not spoil your story. Having an author's note "this story contains anal sex" is a spoiler because now readers know the story contains anal sex. Why tags are not a spoiler if everyone reads them, I don't know.

Then the warning slug is redundant. Case closed.

All creators (writers etc) have no compassion and would never genuinely want their readers not to be harmed. The only reason a writer would include a warning was to protect themselves from other's harming them, such as through hateful comments. If someone says they do actually care about others, then we can know they don't, because this is a horrible world where no one has any genuine care or compassion for anyone.

If you have a genuine heavy trigger warning and you can't spare a tag for that, that's on you. Also, this is a porn site where almost anything goes. Readers have to have some responsibility for their own triggers. If someone is reading a story themed on depression and a suicide attempt blind sides them, what did they expect? Why should the writer spoil the story for everyone else just because someone with a suicide trigger carelessly jumps into a depression story?

Some readers, like me, appreciate and enjoy content from the author outside of the title, description and tags.

And some of us don't. Apologies and spoilers make reading less enjoyable.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Not really. Wanting to give readers the best experience possible doesn't always stem from the desire to protect scores or reduce negative feedback. It's just a courtesy which you can choose to provide if you want to.

But I know your stance: we can agree to disagree.

So science gave us nuclear technology. We could have used it to give the world mass cheap power but instead we made bombs to destroy the planet a thousand times over.

You may want to give the reader the best experience possible with your warning slugs, but that doesn't mean that your intentions will work out the way that you think. By giving the potentially-triggered reader (who is in the minority btw) a supposed better experience, you are weakening the experience for the majority who don't need the warning.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

So how are tags and categories any different? If you aren't holding anyone's hand at an adult site, why give them any guidance at all?

Well it is a balancing act for sure. Tags are for readers to find your story. I am often very careful not to put spoilers in my tags, even if it means that I will get a few less readers. That is up to the author. However, if a writer feels strongly about a an element of their story, there is no reason why it can't just be tagged (other than a couple of illegal tags) and if it is tagged, a warning slug is completely redundant.

 

[ElectricBlue]

So how are tags and categories any different? If you aren't holding anyone's hand at an adult site, why give them any guidance at all?

You're turning something into an argument when there isn't one. All I've said is that tags and categories are, in my opinion, sufficient. They're part of the site's furniture, I don't think you need anything else. You disagree, and that's fine, but it doesn't negate what I think.

 

[bumpercars]

Putting an ingredients list up front defeats the purpose of telling the story. Why would you bother reading it, if you know what's going to happen?

I mean, somebody told me that Moby Dick had whales and drowning in it, but I still feel like it was good for me to read it. Knowing the ingredients doesn't mean you've eaten the cake.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I mean, somebody told me that Moby Dick had whales and drowning in it, but I still feel like it was good for me to read it. Knowing the ingredients doesn't mean you've eaten the cake.

Don't get me started on Death of a Salesman...

 

[Bramblethorn]

Who put the step there?

If you want to interrogate the analogy to that extent, I'll modify it slightly:

Sometimes when I'm working on a thing, I'll need to run a power cord across the floor. If I tell somebody "mind the cord", that's still not an apology - even though I put the cord there - nor an attempt to butter them up. It's simply an expression of my desire to help other people avoid a nasty fall.

 

[Rob_Royale]

We're allowed 10 tags. I use all of them and then in the boilerplate intro 'All characters are over the age of 18', I then encourage the readers to read the tags. Simple and easy.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I mean, somebody told me that Moby Dick had whales and drowning in it, but I still feel like it was good for me to read it. Knowing the ingredients doesn't mean you've eaten the cake.

I wouldn't know. I've never read Moby Dick (burn the heretic now!)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I wouldn't know. I've never read Moby Dick (burn the heretic now!)

Read every other chapter.
Depending on where you start you either get a book about whaling or an adventure story.

 

[ElectricBlue]

We're allowed 10 tags. I use all of them and then in the boilerplate intro 'All characters are over the age of 18', I then encourage the readers to read the tags. Simple and easy.

The point too, is that tags promote the kinks in your story. You're not using them to warn people, you're not seconding guessing what they don't like. That's their job, not mine.

 

[ElectricBlue]

If you want to interrogate the analogy to that extent, I'll modify it slightly:

Sometimes when I'm working on a thing, I'll need to run a power cord across the floor. If I tell somebody "mind the cord", that's still not an apology - even though I put the cord there - nor an attempt to butter them up. It's simply an expression of my desire to help other people avoid a nasty fall.

Where I work, you'd get a ping because you didn't tape the cord down with striped tape.

It's not quite the same as an author having to second guess everyone's delicacies, though, which is still what this thread boils down to.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Putting an ingredients list up front defeats the purpose of telling the story. Why would you bother reading it, if you know what's going to happen?

Why do people re-read stories they've already read?

 

[alohadave]

The point too, is that tags promote the kinks in your story. You're not using them to warn people, you're not seconding guessing what they don't like. That's their job, not mine.

Surely you can see how readers could use them both ways. You may not intend them as content warnings, but if there is a tag that contains content they aren't interested in reading, they can see that and not read the story if they wish.

And I'll say that I use tags both ways. If there is a tag that indicates something I'm not interested in, I'll move on. The author was not providing a warning, simply listing content. And frankly, if an author can't be bothered to tag at all, I debate even opening the story (though many times I will anyway).

 

[Bramblethorn]

Where I work, you'd get a ping because you didn't tape the cord down with striped tape.

It's not quite the same as an author having to second guess everyone's delicacies, though, which is still what this thread boils down to.

I don't think anybody's suggesting we need to guess everyone's delicacies ,though. Where are you seeing that in the discussion?