Was Brexit a triumph for democracy?

[oggbashan]

Scotsman, thanks for setting out that detail. Really informative for me, and I guess plenty of others residing south of the border who like me have only a hazy notion of how the Scottish parliamentary elections work and what it has produced in terms of membership. Cheers.

The Labour Party, which used to be strong in Scotland, Wales and the former heavy industry areas of England has been alienating its members for decades.

Many former Labour voters in Scotland see the SNP as the real inheritors of the Labour Party values that used to support the people rather than the rich elites. If there is anything to be learned from the vote to Leave in Wales and former industrial areas in England, it is that the Labour Party has moved away from its core supporters.

Edited to add:

My view of the support for Jeremy Corbyn among the members of the Labour Party but NOT the majority of Labour MPs is that he is a symptom of the disconnect between the Labour MPs and the Labour voters BUT that he is not the solution. Labour needs someone who can bring the supporters and MPs back together on the same side.

 

[Scotsman69]

Like many Scots, I voted Labour all my life.... until Blair lied to Parliament to drag the UK into an illegal war in Iraq. Labour is now a lost cause in Scotland. For many years it had the majority of Scots MPs, many of whom I counted amongst my personal friends. Now there is one Labour MP from Scotland out of 59 Scots at Westminster. In my constituency, the Labour Party which used to represent this constituency, didn't even bother to have any political presence here during last year's general election, this year's Scottish election, or the EU referendum.

The Labour Party, which used to be strong in Scotland, Wales and the former heavy industry areas of England has been alienating its members for decades.

Many former Labour voters in Scotland see the SNP as the real inheritors of the Labour Party values that used to support the people rather than the rich elites. If there is anything to be learned from the vote to Leave in Wales and former industrial areas in England, it is that the Labour Party has moved away from its core supporters.

Edited to add:

My view of the support for Jeremy Corbyn among the members of the Labour Party but NOT the majority of Labour MPs is that he is a symptom of the disconnect between the Labour MPs and the Labour voters BUT that he is not the solution. Labour needs someone who can bring the supporters and MPs back together on the same side.

 

[oggbashan]

The sad thing is that the Labour Party has not really changed since Blair.

It doesn't matter what I vote in a General Election or District Election. The Conservatives will win. I could vote Raving Monster Loony and my vote would have the same value - nothing.

The only party that might possibly dislodge the Conservatives locally is UKIP but they had only half the votes of the sitting Conservative MP who dropped a few percentage points to 49% of the total votes cast.

 

[DeYaKen]

Not quite correct pal. The elections for the Scottish Parliament, re-instated after nearly 300 years in 1999, very deliberately included a strong element of proportional representation. Indeed, at the time, it was anticipated that the electoral system would prevent one party from ever commanding an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament. That Alex Salmond's SNP was able to command an absolute majority of seats for several years, and that Nicola Sturgeon's SNP just failed to do so in May this year, is an indication of how far the Scottish political landscape has changed since 1999.

Scotland unlike England has effectively had a four-party system (Labour, LibDem, SNP and Tory) for many years. It is significant that the PR in the Scottish electoral system has facilitated the election of several Green and Socialist MSPs, one representing Pensioners, and several doughty independents, over the years; and currently there are six Green MSPs who share the SNP's objective of Scottish independence. But neither UKIP nor any other right/racist organisation has ever won a seat.

Cameron's Tories were elected on 34% of the votes cast, and few if any UK PMs in the past century have led a party which commanded anywhere near a majority of votes cast in the election - thanks to the profoundly undemocratic first-past-the-post electoral system. By contrast, in May this year, Nicola Sturgeon was elected Scotland's First Minister with about 50% of voters supporting the SNP, and a significant margin of Green votes gives her the mandate for independence. By contrast, the 53 out of 59 SNP MPs at Westminster were elected on about 50% of the total Scottish vote... most democratic, eh?

So it is just not true that Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK with proportional representation -in its internal elections. Northern Ireland Westminster MPs, like Scots MPs, are there on the basis of an undemocratic electoral system most of them oppose.

I bow to your superior knowledge. I was under the impression that NI used single transferrable vote for parliamentary elections as well as Stormont. I never mentioned Holyrood because I have no knowledge of it.

 

[DeYaKen]

The Labour Party, which used to be strong in Scotland, Wales and the former heavy industry areas of England has been alienating its members for decades.

Many former Labour voters in Scotland see the SNP as the real inheritors of the Labour Party values that used to support the people rather than the rich elites. If there is anything to be learned from the vote to Leave in Wales and former industrial areas in England, it is that the Labour Party has moved away from its core supporters.

Edited to add:

My view of the support for Jeremy Corbyn among the members of the Labour Party but NOT the majority of Labour MPs is that he is a symptom of the disconnect between the Labour MPs and the Labour voters BUT that he is not the solution. Labour needs someone who can bring the supporters and MPs back together on the same side.

It was a Blairite Labour party that fought and lost the last election. Corbyn was elected by the party members, not the MPs. As you say this shows a disconnect between the sitting MPs and the party membership. Corbyn is trying to correct that by making it easier to deselect MPs. It is hardly surprising that those MPs who do not support the membership's values are fighting to depose Corbyn.

It may be coincidence, but the rebellion will come to a head in the same week that Blair and friends are exposed for their lying and manipulation of Parliament, in the Chilcott report. I don't think I am the only one who smells smoke.

For more than twenty years now the voters have had to choose between Full-Fat Tories and Semi-Skimmed Tories in the guise of the Labour party. Giving the membership the power to change the leader may change that but it will be a hard and bloody road.

 

[gotsnowgotslush]

Are they raising Margaret Thatcher, from the grave ?

 

[Scotsman69]

All Westminster elections are first-past-the-post mate. Glad I've been able to help you learn something!

I bow to your superior knowledge. I was under the impression that NI used single transferrable vote for parliamentary elections as well as Stormont. I never mentioned Holyrood because I have no knowledge of it.

 

[underguy1]

The Labour Party, which used to be strong in Scotland, Wales and the former heavy industry areas of England has been alienating its members for decades.

Many former Labour voters in Scotland see the SNP as the real inheritors of the Labour Party values that used to support the people rather than the rich elites. If there is anything to be learned from the vote to Leave in Wales and former industrial areas in England, it is that the Labour Party has moved away from its core supporters.

Edited to add:

My view of the support for Jeremy Corbyn among the members of the Labour Party but NOT the majority of Labour MPs is that he is a symptom of the disconnect between the Labour MPs and the Labour voters BUT that he is not the solution. Labour needs someone who can bring the supporters and MPs back together on the same side.

Or the party can start deselecting the Blairites and Labour can return to being a party of labour.

Get rid of the Oxbridge elitists and the spads.