What I Wrote And Why - A Family Ritual

[AchtungNight]

IMHO incest is a harmless bit of fun except when it isn’t. And I generally don’t enjoy it when it isn’t. I will however judge each case of it on its merits and not universally condemn or applaud it. I will agree Emily’s story worked with its plot. I just wish said plot didn’t include the things I disliked.

 

[lovecraft68]

Honest question: How did you adapt that view?

I mean, this is a forum, not a blog. A blog with disabled comments is for sharing, a forum is for discussion. And even on the story-side, there are three different places (Two different feedback forms and the comment section) where people are asked to tell you what they think about your writing. I'm kinda surprised that anyone would post anything here and not expect to automatically receive unasked opinions.

The issue isn't that people don't want a discussion on their story, the issue is they only want positive discussion. Often times when someone asks a question here, and gets answers, they will dispute the answers. Why? Because they already know what they think is the answer, and don't want contradiction, they want validation.

There's plenty of crying about negative comments on here, but no one ever seems to think someone saying "Best story ever" is as equally useless as far as feedback goes as "Worst ever".

In the end, many people here don't want help, they don't want to get better, they want attention and praise. The OP said she received angst from the readers there. Being a reader there and having read the story, I told her why she had that reaction, and you see the result.

That and the entire tone of the post, and the essay to back the story reeks of being insulting to the readers. "You didn't like my story, so I now need to explain to you why you should have."

If you can't accept some people are not going to like your stories, that's a problem on a site like this with such a large and varied readership. Like I posted in another thread in some categories, no matter what you do, or don't do, you will never make everyone happy.

 

[StillStunned]

I have to say, I'd love for there to be more honest criticism on this forum. That's one of the reasons why I started WIWAWs in the first place: to discuss HOW we write, whether our peers feel we succeeded (on a technical or emotional level), and what we can do to improve.

No-one benefits from an echo chamber, but equally no-one benefits from a warped echo chamber where all you hear back is insults and accusations.

 

[EmilyMiller]

No-one benefits from an echo chamber, but equally no-one benefits from a warped echo chamber where all you hear back is insults and accusations.

Someone said, maybe it was you, that it should be possible for authors to express themselves in a reasonable, clear and polite manner. That’s what we do, we pick words to convey meaning.

There is a lot of mindless abuse, based on nothing more than personal antipathy, dressed up as “honest feedback” that goes on here.

When people have a track record of taking out their anger management issues on others, they don’t get to play the “I was just being honest card.” It’s entirely disingenuous.

The other thing that abounds here is transparent straw-men. “You said X and I’m going to go on about how awful X is.” Or “you behave in manner Y all the time, which is why Z happens.” When X was never said and behavior Y only exists if you see people through a lens of hate.

Emily

 

[AchtungNight]

I hope I am not regarded as a “transparent straw man”. What I said was sincere and not out of hate.

 

[KeithD]

Honest question: How did you adapt that view?

I mean, this is a forum, not a blog. A blog with disabled comments is for sharing, a forum is for discussion. And even on the story-side, there are three different places (Two different feedback forms and the comment section) where people are asked to tell you what they think about your writing. I'm kinda surprised that anyone would post anything here and not expect to automatically receive unasked opinions.

Where did you get your view? Apples and kumquats. Discussion is relative to content of the discussion. It can be in the sharing mode as much as critique mode. You are making a sweeping assumption that a preponderance of writers posting stories to Literotica are doing it to have feedback on their writing ability by unvetted strangers. I don't agree. I'm quite certain most writers here are seeking affirmation and connection with their stories.

I'm quite content in the belief that you should only provide technical critique on a story here when directly asked to do so by the author (Yes, I think posting in the Feedback board is that--but not that posting in the AH is ipso facto that) and that most posting stories to Literotica are doing so to share and are focusing on praise and connection. And I think that, unless they directly ask for writing help, they should be left the hell alone to enjoy their sense of sharing.

 

[AchtungNight]

For the record, people are free to criticize my stories as they will. But I am also free to ignore and delete their comments. Or take them with a grain of salt in the size I select.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Where did you get your view?

As I said... it's a forum.

Apples and kumquats. Discussion is relative to content of the discussion. It can be in the sharing mode as much as critique mode. You are making a sweeping assumption that a preponderance of writers posting stories to Literotica are doing it to have feedback on their writing ability by unvetted strangers. I don't agree. I'm quite certain most writers here are seeking affirmation and connection with their stories.

No, I'm pretty sure I explicitly wrote "receiving unasked opinions". Though, since authors do have the ability to deactivate comments and feedback if they don't want to receive it, I do assume that writers welcome feedback if they offer readers the option. I mean, simply by the way the comment feature is designed, it doesn't seem to be very useful for readers to have discussions between themselves.

I'm quite content in the belief that you should only provide technical critique on a story here when directly asked to do so by the author (Yes, I think posting in the Feedback board is that--but not that posting in the AH is ipso facto that) and that most posting stories to Literotica are doing so to share and are focusing on praise and connection. And I think that, unless they directly ask for writing help, they should be left the hell alone to enjoy their sense of sharing.

Soooo... you want an echo chamber of positive reinforcement? Alright.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'm quite content in the belief that you should only provide technical critique on a story here when directly asked to do so by the author (Yes, I think posting in the Feedback board is that--but not that posting in the AH is ipso facto that) and that most posting stories to Literotica are doing so to share and are focusing on praise and connection. And I think that, unless they directly ask for writing help, they should be left the hell alone to enjoy their sense of sharing.

To me, these threads invite exactly that, some feedback about the story and the discussion about the author's motivation. I mean, one can say that writing the "What I wrote and why?" and publishing it story-side is aimed at readers, but if you create a thread on AH where almost no one but authors post, that pretty much sounds like an invitation for a discussion about the story. I don't know how much more explicit the invitation should be.
It would probably be helpful if Em and all the other authors who wrote "What I wrote and why?" and created a thread about it on AH said if they expected a discussion and feedback. If so, did they expect some kind of limited feedback about their motivations only and not about the actual story? It would clarify many things.
For the record, I already said what I think about the actual delivery of the feedback, but unless we have a serious case of miscommunication here, I believe these threads were created to stir a discussion about stories.

 

[StillStunned]

When I started my professional life, I was fortunate enough to be part of a team. Everyone reviewed each other's work. Besides the added quality assurance, it also meant that we fed off each other's skill. We all became better editors as a result.

I've kept up the same practice throughout my career: work with a few trusted colleagues to improve our product and our skill. Many of my colleagues work by themselves, however, and often with no input on their work for years at a time. Their writing stagnates and becomes stale.

That's why I think that we can all benefit from criticism. Often, we don't know our weaknesses until someone points them out.

But you need the right mindset for it. You need to be confident in your abilities to begin with, and sincerely willing to take input under consideration. And others need to respect that you might prefer your way of doing things, even when presented with an alternative.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Where did you get your view? Apples and kumquats. Discussion is relative to content of the discussion. It can be in the sharing mode as much as critique mode. You are making a sweeping assumption that a preponderance of writers posting stories to Literotica are doing it to have feedback on their writing ability by unvetted strangers. I don't agree. I'm quite certain most writers here are seeking affirmation and connection with their stories.

I'm quite content in the belief that you should only provide technical critique on a story here when directly asked to do so by the author (Yes, I think posting in the Feedback board is that--but not that posting in the AH is ipso facto that) and that most posting stories to Literotica are doing so to share and are focusing on praise and connection. And I think that, unless they directly ask for writing help, they should be left the hell alone to enjoy their sense of sharing.

I get what you are saying, but there is an alternative perspective.

I’ve been lucky enough to have the benefit of extensive feedback and helpful suggestions from some very good authors. This is often in private via PMs, or as comments and suggestions on drafts in Google Docs. Sometimes it’s in public as well.

Some of this feedback is very specific (this sentence is badly structured - try this instead), but a lot is more general about how to approach things, or how to bring plots together, or to bring characters to life. These people (who I’m not going to drag into this by naming them) make points about things I wrote that didn’t work. They suggest alternatives. They point out errors and ways to fix them. They mention of something is unrealistic or inconsistent.

This is wonderful and valuable. I also try to act on such feedback. I have no allusions that I’m a good writer. I’ve been doing this for just over a year and it’s not my background. The difference is that even pointed criticism is provided in a measured and reasonable manner. One that someone would adopt if their actual goal was to help as opposed to attack.

Here, there is a significant minority of people whose stock in trade is to belittle others in order to play to the peanut gallery and salve their own insecurities. The intent is not to help, it’s to humiliate.

I know some people struggle to calibrate messaging on-line. I’m ND and I know I do. But even someone like me can tell the difference between honest feedback intended to help and vitriol intended to hurt and to make the person throwing it feel better about themselves.

This is not difficult stuff. Treat other people how you would like to be treated. Don’t hide behind a tattered fig-leaf of feedback when your actual motivation is payback. Be more honest than that.

Emily

 

[alohadave]

I'm quite content in the belief that you should only provide technical critique on a story here when directly asked to do so by the author (Yes, I think posting in the Feedback board is that--but not that posting in the AH is ipso facto that) and that most posting stories to Literotica are doing so to share and are focusing on praise and connection. And I think that, unless they directly ask for writing help, they should be left the hell alone to enjoy their sense of sharing.

This is true across all social media/forums. Unless the poster asks for or encourages feedback or critique, assume that they are sharing for people to enjoy.

 

[KeithD]

I get what you are saying, but there is an alternative perspective.

I’ve been lucky enough to have the benefit of extensive feedback and helpful suggestions from some very good authors. This is often in private via PMs, or as comments and suggestions on drafts in Google Docs. Sometimes it’s in public as well.

Some of this feedback is very specific (this sentence is badly structured - try this instead), but a lot is more general about how to approach things, or how to bring plots together, or to bring characters to life. These people (who I’m not going to drag into this by naming them) make points about things I wrote that didn’t work. They suggest alternatives. They point out errors and ways to fix them. They mention of something is unrealistic or inconsistent.

This is wonderful and valuable. I also try to act on such feedback. I have no allusions that I’m a good writer. I’ve been doing this for just over a year and it’s not my background. The difference is that even pointed criticism is provided in a measured and reasonable manner. One that someone would adopt if their actual goal was to help as opposed to attack.

Here, there is a significant minority of people whose stock in trade is to belittle others in order to play to the peanut gallery and salve their own insecurities. The intent is not to help, it’s to humiliate.

I know some people struggle to calibrate messaging on-line. I’m ND and I know I do. But even someone like me can tell the difference between honest feedback intended to help and vitriol intended to hurt and to make the person throwing it feel better about themselves.

This is not difficult stuff. Treat other people how you would like to be treated. Don’t hide behind a tattered fig-leaf of feedback when your actual motivation is payback. Be more honest than that.

Emily

I don't take this as responsive to the point I made. You asked for what you got. I'm saying the assumption shouldn't be that writers want writing guidance from unvetted strangers here unless they ask for it. You asked for it, didn't like what you got, and dragged it out in multiple threads.

 

[KeithD]

To me, these threads invite exactly that,

Yes, I think EM has invited that. I don't think that should be assumption for all mentions of one's stories here. These are separate issues.

 

[KeithD]

View attachment 2324272

As I said... it's a forum.



No, I'm pretty sure I explicitly wrote "receiving unasked opinions". Though, since authors do have the ability to deactivate comments and feedback if they don't want to receive it, I do assume that writers welcome feedback if they offer readers the option. I mean, simply by the way the comment feature is designed, it doesn't seem to be very useful for readers to have discussions between themselves.



Soooo... you want an echo chamber of positive reinforcement? Alright.

It being a forum doesn't necessitate what is discussed on that forum.

Yes, a writer has the power here to delete comments on their stories (which right there tells you where the site leans on the share/critique issue), but not on the discussion board.

I'll push it to say it takes an arrogant "look at me" SOB to take it upon themselves, as an unvetted stranger on the boards, to assume that any writer here want's their unrequested critique.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Yes, I think EM has invited that. I don't think that should be assumption for all mentions of one's stories here. These are separate issues.

I meant exclusively threads like this one, where people link their "What I wrote and why?"

 

[KeithD]

I meant exclusively threads like this one, where people link their "What I wrote and why?"

I posted one of those. Yes, it invited comment on the story theme. No, it didn't invite an unvetted stranger to comment on my writing style or grammar or sexual or category preferences.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I don't take this as responsive to the point I made. You asked for what you got. I'm saying the assumption shouldn't be that writers want writing guidance from unvetted strangers here unless they ask for it. You asked for it, didn't like what you got, and dragged it out in multiple threads.

I’m not going to re-litigate that particular train wreck. Save to correct a very widespread misapprehension about it. My considerable and justified upset was never anything to do with the actual writing-related parts of the review (I use the term loosely) and everything to do with erroneous ad hominems made in it about me, my personal views on political / moral subjects, and - later vindictive and unsupported things said in PMs.

I know it’s a much easier narrative to say “Emily doesn’t like criticism of her writing, what a snowflake” it’s just not what happened and is certainly not true. Strange to say “Emily doesn’t like attacks on her person, her beliefs and values, and she really doesn’t like bitchy unsubstantiated and frankly misogynist PMs.” Then I’m sure most regular people would be fine with all that and it’s just me. I’m used to being held to a different standard than other people.

Emily

 

[KeithD]

I’m not going to re-litigate that particular train wreck. Save to correct a very widespread misapprehension about it. My considerable and justified upset was never anything to do with the actual writing-related parts of the review (I use the term loosely) and everything to do with erroneous ad hominems made in it about me, my personal views on political / moral subjects, and - later vindictive and unsupported things said in PMs.

I know it’s a much easier narrative to say “Emily doesn’t like criticism of her writing, what a snowflake” it’s just not what happened and is certainly not true. Strange to say “Emily doesn’t like attacks on her person, her beliefs and values, and she really doesn’t like bitchy unsubstantiated and frankly misogynist PMs.” Then I’m sure most regular people would be fine with all that and it’s just me. I’m used to being held to a different standard than other people.

Emily

And yet you just keep on "discussing" this in public.

I believe some time ago when you posted that your hurt on this one instance was going to cause you to withdraw from Lit., I suggested that you just drop it and it would all go away in a day or two. That's still my suggestion.

 

[EmilyMiller]

And yet you just keep on "discussing" this in public.

You stated that I have a problem with criticism, I’m allowed to respond to that, surely?

I believe some time ago when you posted that your hurt on this one instance was going to cause you to withdraw from Lit., I suggested that you just drop it and it would all go away in a day or two. That's still my suggestion.

I did just that. I’m good at taking well-intentioned advice.

Emily

 

[KeithD]

You stated that I have a problem with criticism, I’m allowed to respond to that, surely?

Cite where I have stated that.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Cite where I have stated that.

“You asked for it, didn't like what you got, and dragged it out in multiple threads.”

Emily

 

[StillStunned]

I posted one of those. Yes, it invited comment on the story theme. No, it didn't invite an unvetted stranger to comment on my writing style or grammar or sexual or category preferences.

In my first two WIWAWs, I explicitly stated that I was looking for feedback on specific elements, but to respect the story for what it was. As in, with a fantasy story, don't say it's stupid because you don't like fantasy. If it's written in 1P, don't say you never read anything in 1P because you hate that style.

I think that's a fair enough request to make. If you're writing a WIWAW about your theme, you should state that that's the topic of the thread and criticism of style, or spelling, or length, or whatever, isn't what you're looking for. On the other hand, if you're expressly discussing elements of your style, you could exclude theme from the criticism.

This makes WIWAWs a more focused tool than general reviews by readers or other authors.

 

[KeithD]

“You asked for it, didn't like what you got, and dragged it out in multiple threads.”

Emily

That describes observable actions you have taken (and continue to pursue). It's not a statement by me that you can't take criticism. You have, in fact, taken it and rubbed it all over the discussion board. You seem to wallow in it. (And I'm not really interested in hearing it in the separate dimension of a PM.)

My baseline suggestion is not to ask for critiques from AMD and O. They pursue personal agendas/prejudices that are not elements of a good critiquer. They have no more training for this than those they are critiquing. This was a good example of the danger of their critiques.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That describes observable actions you have taken (and continue to pursue). It's not a statement by me that you can't take criticism. You have, in fact, taken it and rubbed it all over the discussion board. You seem to wallow in it. (And I'm not really interested in hearing it in the separate dimension of a PM.)

If that’s what you meant, that’s fine. The statement is open to interpretation. But anyway - matter closed.

My baseline suggestion is not to ask for critiques from AMD and O. They pursue personal agendas/prejudices that are not elements of a good critiquer. They have no more training for this than those they are critiquing. This was a good example of the danger of their critiques.

It’s very sound advice.

Emily