Where are all the men?

[DVS]

I have never seen hunting for sport as a "manly" activity. Yeah, man, you're so buff for shooting an unaware animal from 300yds away.

Hunting for actual food is a bit different, but it depends on the situation. My dad grew up hunting, and hunting a lot. But it was because they were poor, and bullets were cheaper than beef. It made sense to send my dad and his little brother out with literally two rounds each, and have them get some food than it was to scrape up the money for a roast.

Unfortunately, shooting for sport is considered to be manly, in my neck of the woods. It starts with the handling of guns, I'd suppose, but then it's taken to the extreme, by some of those who participate. I enjoy guns for the thrill I get from shooting. I know they can kill. I don't have to prove it. Where's the sport in that?

Of course, shooting for food is for sure a manly thing because it is providing for the family. Growing up, I had a close friend that never let on that they were poor. I was invited to their house many times for dinner. We'd always have rabbit, squirrel or frog's legs, and being a kid of 10 or 12, I thought they were exotic dishes.

They never let on that they were poor. And I never saw it, either. They were a happy, close-nit, middle class family that seemed to have everything they needed. So, in my eyes, they weren't poor at all, but quite wealthy.

 

[Homburg]

Unfortunately, shooting for sport is considered to be manly, in my neck of the woods. It starts with the handling of guns, I'd suppose, but then it's taken to the extreme, by some of those who participate. I enjoy guns for the thrill I get from shooting. I know they can kill. I don't have to prove it. Where's the sport in that?

My take on it is basically the same. Sure, there's a challenge to it. It's not easy. But I don't see it as manly. Meh.

 

[nh23]

I think this is important. It's been danced around a bit, but it is core to the issue.

What you think of when you think of "man" (or "woman") is pretty much going to be what you think of, and precious little will change that. And it affects compatibility to a great extent. If we can accept other difference sin preference, and write them off to compatibility, why is there such an issue here?

Yep. Like My sister's hubby. I don't hate him as a person. I think he has a right to his own existence like we all do, but he's not my definition as "manly" therefore we would not be compatible as a couple.

 

[Shankara20]

....

her husband is a great example of the masculine ideal...strong (in a MALE way), capable, protective, authoritative, focused/level-headed, a stern disciplinarian but loving father and husband. a man who worked for 35 years for the railroad to support his family despite constant back problems and injury, without the slightest complaint ever.

"old-fashioned" to me has to do with acknowledgment and respect for the differences between male and female and our respective strengths and weaknesses.

I do believe we have covered some of this in the past, yes.

I get concerned with stereotypes of gender rolls that do not allow of much variance and how that informs some actions.

I get concerned that by defining a "man" as only those with the general attributes, more-or-less, as you outlined above will cast many males away.

I get concerned that some of those who do fit such a model hold in disgust those that don't - including their own sons. And the violence that can and does follow. Men have murdered other men that don't "match up" to such "strong (in a MALE way)" model.

I get concerned how some that don't the "strong (in a MALE way)" model beat their partners to make up as an attempt to cover personality failures.

I thought the Marlboro Man was a great and hot roll model until I became aware of the problems such hypermasculinity modeling causes.

We shall not agree, but I do honor our ability to continue the discussion.

 

[satindesire]

I thought the Marlboro Man was hot too til I saw that he was THE MARLBORO MAN.

Cigarettes are soooo gross.

Everyone has different opinions about what makes a man a man. I'd like to see what opinions everyone has as to what makes a woman a woman!

 

[Keroin]

Everyone has different opinions about what makes a man a man. I'd like to see what opinions everyone has as to what makes a woman a woman!

Then come visit my new thread!

Oh, cat pictures this week. I promise.

 

[Homburg]

I get concerned that some of those who do fit such a model hold in disgust those that don't - including their own sons. And the violence that can and does follow. Men have murdered other men that don't "match up" to such "strong (in a MALE way)" model.

Eldest Son is a weedy little thing that gets pushed around by his big sister. He gets back at her by, well, being a little brother. He is not what I would consider "manly" now, and is not all that interested in a lot of manly things. Doesn't bother me one bit. He's smart as hell, good looking, and a really great kid. He doesn't need to be manly, and, honestly, he may grow into. Dunno.

I don't look down on a male that does not partake of manly things. Not my business to judge on that sort of front alone. Where I look askance is a male that disparages such behaviour, or, as was said before, gets the vapors when confronted with such things.

And it has nothing to do with sexual orientation either. My buddy F is queer as the proverbial $3 bill, and handy as hell. Manly, buff, huge, more man than the vast majority of straight guys. His boyfriend is quiet, unassuming, into many classically feminine pursuits, and still manly. He maintains a solid, implacable attitude in the face of adversity, and is right there trying to fix things when something goes wrong. I've a friend that is a slave into femininsation and cross-dressing, and he is manly as all hell.

 

[Keroin]

I do believe we have covered some of this in the past, yes.

I get concerned with stereotypes of gender rolls that do not allow of much variance and how that informs some actions.

I get concerned that by defining a "man" as only those with the general attributes, more-or-less, as you outlined above will cast many males away.

I get concerned that some of those who do fit such a model hold in disgust those that don't - including their own sons. And the violence that can and does follow. Men have murdered other men that don't "match up" to such "strong (in a MALE way)" model.

I get concerned how some that don't the "strong (in a MALE way)" model beat their partners to make up as an attempt to cover personality failures.

I thought the Marlboro Man was a great and hot roll model until I became aware of the problems such hypermasculinity modeling causes.

We shall not agree, but I do honor our ability to continue the discussion.

I'm guessing you are familiar with the Fa'afafine? We have something similar on this island. Very interesting. The men are raised as girls, dress as girls, have sex with men but are still considered men and are not considered gay, nor are their partners, many of whom are married with children. There is none of the Western-type stigma attached to these men.

And yet, it is "illegal" to be gay here and island men are very, very stereotypically male.

 

[Shankara20]

And it has nothing to do with sexual orientation either. My buddy F is queer as the proverbial $3 bill, and handy as hell. Manly, buff, huge, more man than the vast majority of straight guys. His boyfriend is quiet, unassuming, into many classically feminine pursuits, and still manly. He maintains a solid, implacable attitude in the face of adversity, and is right there trying to fix things when something goes wrong. I've a friend that is a slave into femininsation and cross-dressing, and he is manly as all hell.

I get a manly pleasure from fixing things - and have problem standing back while a female tries to fix something even if I don't know how to fix it myself. But I have become wise enough to not jump in till asked.

And I don't like plumbing work. I'll do it, but I don't like it. You tighten one little thing and, bam, up-pipe another leak starts.

 

[Shankara20]

I'm guessing you are familiar with the Fa'afafine? We have something similar on this island. Very interesting. The men are raised as girls, dress as girls, have sex with men but are still considered men and are not considered gay, nor are their partners, many of whom are married with children. There is none of the Western-type stigma attached to these men.

And yet, it is "illegal" to be gay here and island men are very, very stereotypically male.

In Brazil a "man" can fuck a man and still be considered a straight man. But a male who is fucked by another man is not considered a "man". It is manly to put your cock into someone, but not having someone put a cock into you.

go figure

 

[ZRT]

In Brazil a "man" can fuck a man and still be considered a straight man. But a male who is fucked by another man is not considered a "man". It is manly to put your cock into someone, but not having someone put a cock into you.

go figure

That sounds like descent from the Roman thoughts on the matter, and those Mediterranean societies of the classical era in general.

 

[Homburg]

I get a manly pleasure from fixing things - and have problem standing back while a female tries to fix something even if I don't know how to fix it myself. But I have become wise enough to not jump in till asked.

And I don't like plumbing work. I'll do it, but I don't like it. You tighten one little thing and, bam, up-pipe another leak starts.

Plumbing sucks. It is one of the few things that I have considered paying someone else to do simply because I'm loathe to do it.

 

[satindesire]

Then come visit my new thread!

Oh, cat pictures this week. I promise.

It's about time! ^_^

 

[Sir_Winston54]

It's about time! ^_^

It's about time for new pics of satindesire, too... that were promised to us weeks ago!

 

[satindesire]

It's about time for new pics of satindesire, too... that were promised to us weeks ago!

Okay, okay, as soon as Mister is done with his WoW quest, I'll get him to take some pictures of me.

 

[DVS]

Okay, okay, as soon as Mister is done with his WoW quest, I'll get him to take some pictures of me.

WoW quest? Is that some manly game I'm not aware of?

 

[Keroin]

It's about time! ^_^

I put them in the Caturday thread. Meow.

 

[rosco rathbone]

In Brazil a "man" can fuck a man and still be considered a straight man. But a male who is fucked by another man is not considered a "man". It is manly to put your cock into someone, but not having someone put a cock into you.

go figure

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Homburg]

WoW quest? Is that some manly game I'm not aware of?

Not manly in the slightest.

*logs back in to WoW*

 

[satindesire]

WoW quest? Is that some manly game I'm not aware of?

World of Warcraft. Only the manliest game to manitutde.

 

[YourCaptor]

Just got internet again (sitting in a coffeeshop w/free wifi in Amsterdam), and I read through most of the thread again, and I'm still sort of trying to figure out what got me so pissed off.

All this talk about "real" men and pussy-fied men just makes me feel like I both need to defend men who don't fit into all arbitrary definitions of what makes up a man, and like I need to try and better fit into my own gender stereotype so that I'll not be accused of not being a real woman.

I also feel like I need to re-stock on pepper spray and throw out my mini-dresses. You can never be too careful!

Also, don't feel like you need to respond, I won't be in front of a computer again for a few days, anyway.

ETA: Actually, probably the only thing that pisses me off about this thread is not any individual posts but just that the thread, in general, says that there is such a thing as a "real" man, which implies that there is such a thing as "fake" men. Bullshit. If this shit was reversed onto women there would be the hugest cry of sexism.

Real men, fake men, its all socialized. Gender norms are influence by culture.

The only real hard differences are the obvious physical ones

Differences that on average are true for the sexes across cultures

1. females have better verbal and non verbal communications skills
2. males have better spacial skills
3. females are more cooperative socially
4. males are more aggressive and resistant socially
5. females live longer
6. males die sooner

This confuses me....are you saying that any sub women you get involved with is immediately YOUR submissive and you 'own' her, therefore you feel justified and correct in raping her because she is no longer capable of making her own choices as a human being with free will?

Or what?

This is the common interpretation, however just because I own someone does not mean they have no more brain activity. There is a saying, I forget exactly how it goes, you can take a mans freedom but you can never take a mans free will.

I don't intend to lobotomize subs, in fact I enjoy watching them be all subbie as they are. Its them that I want, for what they are, that includes their mind.

Also while I may call it rape, I doubt I would ever really rape a sub. In rape sex is not the motive, it is the medium.

 

[Keroin]

Yes, college, and are they cute? Yes, very.


I’m not so sure this is entirely correct.

We are reaching a kind of cross roads. Are we talking vanilla girls or sub girls. Sub girls there is no sense that they “owe” me, but simply that they are mine anyway.

Nilla girls, which the experiences I’m referring to where with, there is a sense of “owe”, but I think the girls in question had the same impression. A large part of why I was with them in the first place was because they where hot. Actually in hindsight that was all there was too it. At the time I had an unsubstantiated hope that a relationship would come out of it, but there was no way I could have tolerated any of them.

All parties very much aware of the large role of sex, when things eventually get intimate and then progress towards sex, if I don’t get a good reason for why there should be no sex I feel cheated and I’m not walking away without compensation. I’m gonna try to get out of her all I can. Considering, I think I kept myself in check pretty good.

Anyway, I’m sure you will all be happy to know that I have since quite nillas. I would rather go without sex then deal with a girl I can’t stand. However sub girls are so rare they are almost legendary, and it has been way too long, about as long as I have been on lit I think. Hence maybe some of the madness.

No offence, but I’m also sick of the, girls will get better with age argument. I’ve been hearing that since I was 15, that’s over a third of my life.

(For the purpose of this discussion, I am referring to vanilla partners.)

Actually, I am sure I'm entirely correct here. You know, even a prostitute has a right to cancel the deal, refund your money and leave. I don't care what the reason, any person, of either sex, has the right to call a halt at any time.

If you don't want me to play the age card then you have to earn it. In the situation you've described, a mature man walks away, no harm no foul. It's about respect. He doesn't ever have to interact with that woman again but he doesn't feel he has to pressure her into something she doesn't want to do.

If this sort of thing has happened to you often, I would question why. It can't be just because they were vanilla girls. I can't think of a single incident, in my vanilla days, where I backed out of sex for no obvious reason. Is it the kind of girl you choose? Is it you? Could you have done something to make them reconsider at the last minute? Does this sort of thing happen regularly to other guys you know? It seems logical, to me, that if you frequently find yourself in a situation you are unhappy with, then you need to find out the reasons why.

Within a BDSM relationship, the rules of the game are set by the participants but, even so, I would hope that a PYL would always keep the well being of his partner(s) in mind.

Women do get better with age, for the most part. Sorry if you're sick of hearing it but it's true. But by "with age" I'm not talking about a 25 year old, I'm talking about someone 30 and older. Men get better too. At least, this seems to be the general consensus.

 

[YourCaptor]

(For the purpose of this discussion, I am referring to vanilla partners.)

Actually, I am sure I'm entirely correct here. You know, even a prostitute has a right to cancel the deal, refund your money and leave. I don't care what the reason, any person, of either sex, has the right to call a halt at any time.

If you don't want me to play the age card then you have to earn it. In the situation you've described, a mature man walks away, no harm no foul. It's about respect. He doesn't ever have to interact with that woman again but he doesn't feel he has to pressure her into something she doesn't want to do.

If this sort of thing has happened to you often, I would question why. It can't be just because they were vanilla girls. I can't think of a single incident, in my vanilla days, where I backed out of sex for no obvious reason. Is it the kind of girl you choose? Is it you? Could you have done something to make them reconsider at the last minute? Does this sort of thing happen regularly to other guys you know? It seems logical, to me, that if you frequently find yourself in a situation you are unhappy with, then you need to find out the reasons why.

Within a BDSM relationship, the rules of the game are set by the participants but, even so, I would hope that a PYL would always keep the well being of his partner(s) in mind.

Women do get better with age, for the most part. Sorry if you're sick of hearing it but it's true. But by "with age" I'm not talking about a 25 year old, I'm talking about someone 30 and older. Men get better too. At least, this seems to be the general consensus.

I've questioned why I can't seem to have a close relationship with vanilla girls. I don't think its a single reason, but many. Much of it is just simple interactions. Leaning over her, eyes fixed on hers, you would be surprised how many women just can't be comfortable like that. It all builds more and more, and its just no good.

I also define sub as basically anyone who is consciously aware of the power difference and is on the submissive end. Just that little bit of knowledge changes so much.

I really don't see any wrong in how I acted. Sure anyone can just stop, but on the same token anyone can also protest.

 

[Homburg]

I'm still confused by the idea that submissive girls of college age are so rare as to be "legendary".

 

[Shankara20]

but on the same token anyone can also protest.

That in fact is not true - people, males and females, who were abused as children ofter do not develop the ability to stop unwanted activities as adults.

As an example, a female who had a father that raped her continually for years from ages 9 to 13 very well may go submissive when a dominate male makes advances. She knew that her health and well being as a child was dependent on not protesting her fathers actions - this way of seeing the world will in all likelihood carry over into adult relations.

"Ghosts in the Bedroom" is a rather good account of what being sexually abused as a female child can bring into adult relationships. It was written by a man that married a survivor of childhood rape and what that history did to his sexual relations with his wife.

Not everyone has developed the personal power to say "No".