Where are all the men?

[ownedsubgal]

That in fact is not true - people, males and females, who were abused as children ofter do not develop the ability to stop unwanted activities as adults.

As an example, a female who had a father that raped her continually for years from ages 9 to 13 very well may go submissive when a dominate male makes advances. She knew that her health and well being as a child was dependent on not protesting her fathers actions - this way of seeing the world will in all likelihood carry over into adult relations.

"Ghosts in the Bedroom" is a rather good account of what being sexually abused as a female child can bring into adult relationships. It was written by a man that married a survivor of childhood rape and what that history did to his sexual relations with his wife.

Not everyone has developed the personal power to say "No".

wow Shank, i'm amazed...finally, something you and i can agree on.

 

[graceanne]

That in fact is not true - people, males and females, who were abused as children ofter do not develop the ability to stop unwanted activities as adults.

As an example, a female who had a father that raped her continually for years from ages 9 to 13 very well may go submissive when a dominate male makes advances. She knew that her health and well being as a child was dependent on not protesting her fathers actions - this way of seeing the world will in all likelihood carry over into adult relations.

"Ghosts in the Bedroom" is a rather good account of what being sexually abused as a female child can bring into adult relationships. It was written by a man that married a survivor of childhood rape and what that history did to his sexual relations with his wife.

Not everyone has developed the personal power to say "No".

I have a family member who was molested by her father and her brother. It's literally physically painful to her for people to be angry or upset or disappointed in her. We, as her family, watch her pretty carefully, because she is incapable of saying no.

 

[Shankara20]

wow Shank, i'm amazed...finally, something you and i can agree on.

Did hell just freeze over, or what?
hee-hee

 

[Shankara20]

I have a family member who was molested by her father and her brother. It's literally physically painful to her for people to be angry or upset or disappointed in her. We, as her family, watch her pretty carefully, because she is incapable of saying no.

oh my - so sorry to hear about that

 

[callinectes]

I am very late to the discussion and didn't read every single post but I am going to throw in my two cents anyway. I too am alarmed by the feminization and dumbing down of men. I think much of it can be blamed on PC-ism but I also think the number of boys being raised by single women is a large factor. A woman simply can't teach a boy how to be a man. We don't have the innate knowledge to do it. Boys need lots of exposure to honorable men and many just do not get it for a variety of reasons.


Many sitcoms really bother me. The father or male lead is usually depicted as a bumbling, selfish, pig of a guy. Thankfully the female lead is there each week to rescue the family from the man's stupid behavior. Try that with a female character and then listen to the uproar.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I am very late to the discussion and didn't read every single post but I am going to throw in my two cents anyway. I too alarmed by the feminization and dumbing down of men. I think much of it can be blamed on PC-ism but I also think the number of boys being raised by single women is a large factor. A woman simply can't teach a boy how to be a man. We don't have the innate knowledge to do it. Boys need lots of exposure to honorable men and many just do not get it for a variety of reasons.


Many sitcoms really bother me. The father or male lead us usually depicted as a bumbling, selfish, pig of a guy. Thankfully the female lead is there each week to rescue the family from the man's stupid behavior. Try that with a female character and then listen to the uproar.

amen to everything you've said calli, and an especially good point about single mothers. the best, most responsible, intelligent, loving, capable mother cannot show a boy how to be a man, imo.

 

[intothewoods]

It's not single motherhood. It's absentee fathers. I'm single and a mother, but my child is also being raised by his father and he's exposed to plenty of excellent male role models.

Children are not typically raised in vacuums, nor should they be. I do believe it takes a village. So a "responsible" mother can choose wisely what men are in her son's life, provided, of course, that she is not completely resourceless. Of course that's not always the case, but a son raised by two women will not necessarily be clueless about how to be a man, simply because his primary caregivers are women.

 

[Shankara20]

Many sitcoms really bother me. The father or male lead is usually depicted as a bumbling, selfish, pig of a guy. Thankfully the female lead is there each week to rescue the family from the man's stupid behavior. Try that with a female character and then listen to the uproar.

I do agree with this point...

 

[Shankara20]

It's not single motherhood. It's absentee fathers.

Most of my TV and movie male heroes rode off into the sunset after saving all the women folk and wuss men in the town.

That is what real men do, don't you know, kick ass, take names, and ride off....

 

[JMohegan]

Fathers in absentia. I'll talk about that.

My observation is that boys raised without a responsible male taking on a parental role in their lives are at least as much at risk for hyper-masculinization as they are for a feminization of sorts.

Gang violence. General belligerence. Abusive behavior toward women. Tendency to compensate for feelings of personal inadequacy with fists, knives, and guns. Blatant disrespect for the mothers or grandmothers desperately trying to maintain order in their lives. That's what I mean by the "hyper-masculinization" of boys.

 

[callinectes]

triple post!!

 

[callinectes]

It's not single motherhood. It's absentee fathers. I'm single and a mother, but my child is also being raised by his father and he's exposed to plenty of excellent male role models.

Children are not typically raised in vacuums, nor should they be. I do believe it takes a village. So a "responsible" mother can choose wisely what men are in her son's life, provided, of course, that she is not completely resourceless. Of course that's not always the case, but a son raised by two women will not necessarily be clueless about how to be a man, simply because his primary caregivers are women.

I just posted this but don't see it so let's try again.

I do agree with youon the first point, that was poorly worded on my part.

As to my second point, based on my unscientific observations of women in my small town.. unless there are male family members willing to take on that role it just doesn't happen.

 

[callinectes]

Dang, I have tried to post this three times but it disappears somewhere!

ITW, you are right in that it is absentee fathers, that was poorly written on my part.

With regards to good male role models...based on my unscientific observations in my small town, unless there are male family members willing to step into the mentor role with a boy it just doesn't happen.

 

[ownedsubgal]

It's not single motherhood. It's absentee fathers. I'm single and a mother, but my child is also being raised by his father and he's exposed to plenty of excellent male role models.

Children are not typically raised in vacuums, nor should they be. I do believe it takes a village. So a "responsible" mother can choose wisely what men are in her son's life, provided, of course, that she is not completely resourceless. Of course that's not always the case, but a son raised by two women will not necessarily be clueless about how to be a man, simply because his primary caregivers are women.

it's not a dig against single motherhood at all, but unfortunately i think that many single mothers do not recognize the importance of a strong, consistent and positive male role model and influence in a boy's life. it doesn't have to equate to a daddy in the home, it could be an uncle or grandfather or adult cousin or dear family friend, whomever...just someone to provide a model of what a man is and should be. there are single mothers who DO understand this and make sure that there is a male influence in their child's life, but there are many who for whatever reason do not, and that is the problem.

 

[graceanne]

t I also think the number of boys being raised by single women is a large factor. A woman simply can't teach a boy how to be a man. We don't have the innate knowledge to do it. Boys need lots of exposure to honorable men and many just do not get it for a variety of reasons.

I agree. Men are necessary for teaching certain things. For instance ( a small example) I potty trained my son while K was in basic training, and had to teach him to pee sitting down. BTW that doesn't work so well, and makes a huge mess. The first thing (almost exactly) that K did when he got home was take D into the bathroom and show him how to pee without making a huge freaken mess.

Many sitcoms really bother me. The father or male lead is usually depicted as a bumbling, selfish, pig of a guy. Thankfully the female lead is there each week to rescue the family from the man's stupid behavior. Try that with a female character and then listen to the uproar.

Oh, my word. Don't get me started on sitcoms and men. I won't watch them for that reason alone. In all sitcom's the man is ugly and an idiot, and the woman is smart, capable, and gorgeous.

It's not single motherhood. It's absentee fathers. I'm single and a mother, but my child is also being raised by his father and he's exposed to plenty of excellent male role models.

A good add on to cali's post. I also agree. Too many boys are being raised without good male influences. And that doesn't necessarily mean their dad. When my brother in law was being stupid and wasn't allowed to his see his boys me and K would go get them about once a week so that K could spend time with them.

Also, when my sister and her hubby split, K and my step dad were the ones who had to teach my nephew things like showering and peeing without making a mess, and stuff like that. These are just small things that men are needed for for boys. There are so many things otherwise that men are needed for when it comes to raising boys.

 

[Homburg]

It's not single motherhood. It's absentee fathers.

This.

Growing up in the military, quite literally every one of my friends was from a typical nuclear family. Let's face it, if mom and dad split, the family no longer gets quarters on base. So all of the kids I grew up with were from families where the parents were together. This meant that every kid had a male and female role model present.

I got older, dad got out of the army, and we moved off-base. My friends now were still commonly military, but as time went on, more and more people from civilian backgrounds came to be in my circle of friends. Nowadays, I look at my friends, and I am faced with the majority of them coming from single-parent households, and the parent is almost always the mother.

In those cases, yeah, the guy did not get the man-education that the ones I knew that came from unsplit family units. That said, most of them have sought out some sort of technical education later in life.

 

[DVS]

I am very late to the discussion and didn't read every single post but I am going to throw in my two cents anyway. I too am alarmed by the feminization and dumbing down of men. I think much of it can be blamed on PC-ism but I also think the number of boys being raised by single women is a large factor. A woman simply can't teach a boy how to be a man. We don't have the innate knowledge to do it. Boys need lots of exposure to honorable men and many just do not get it for a variety of reasons.

Many sitcoms really bother me. The father or male lead is usually depicted as a bumbling, selfish, pig of a guy. Thankfully the female lead is there each week to rescue the family from the man's stupid behavior. Try that with a female character and then listen to the uproar.

TV commercials are the same way. The wife is always the smart one, and the husband is the idiot that the wife is always correcting.

There is one cereal commercial where the husband just can't say anything right, because the wife twists everything he says into being something about her weight. In the end, he is bashed down to a slobbering nib, because she likes the cereal for its taste, not because it is healthy.

HER "What else does the box say?"

HIM "Shut up, Steve."

There are lots of commercials like this. There's another where the husband is told to kill the weeds and the bungler that he is, he buys the wrong stuff and also kills the grass. So, the wife tells him how much of an idiot he is for not getting the correct brand...the one that doesn't kill the grass. DUH! In this one, even the kids make fun of dad. Of course, at the end of the commercial, dad is saying "yes, dear" like some submissive dolt.

And yes, a lot of sitcoms are like that. If there is one that a woman is the idiot, it's only another woman that is correcting her. There are never any men correcting a woman.

OK, I shouldn't say there are NO shows that the wife is corrected, but the scale is tilted in the extreme against the men. We are just seen as bumbling idiots. How many bumbling idiots can muster up some manliness?

And women want us to cry, or we aren't sensitive enough for them. We don't get in touch with our emotions. We don't dress like we should. The furniture in our apartments and houses aren't color coordinated. When we get married, most of our stuff is set out for the trash, because the new wife won't allow it to stay in the same house with her stuff.

And they still want us to be manly, too? It's no wonder the men are afraid of spiders. The new dominating wives have them afraid to do anything without checking with them first.

Role models! Role models! Both girls and boys need good role models!

Don't get me started. And I wonder why I'm not married?


P.S.

It's about time this site came back up so I could post this. Damn, if I don't feel manly now!

 

[DVS]

It's not single motherhood. It's absentee fathers. I'm single and a mother, but my child is also being raised by his father and he's exposed to plenty of excellent male role models.

Children are not typically raised in vacuums, nor should they be. I do believe it takes a village. So a "responsible" mother can choose wisely what men are in her son's life, provided, of course, that she is not completely resourceless. Of course that's not always the case, but a son raised by two women will not necessarily be clueless about how to be a man, simply because his primary caregivers are women.

Sure, there are some fathers that don't give a shit, but don't put all of the blame on them. There are some young girls that just want to have a baby because it's cool and doesn't seem to care if the father is involved. He's done his part, in her opinion.

I'll say the scales are tilted more to absent dads, but there are some selfish moms, too.

 

[Keroin]

I've questioned why I can't seem to have a close relationship with vanilla girls. I don't think its a single reason, but many. Much of it is just simple interactions. Leaning over her, eyes fixed on hers, you would be surprised how many women just can't be comfortable like that. It all builds more and more, and its just no good.

I also define sub as basically anyone who is consciously aware of the power difference and is on the submissive end. Just that little bit of knowledge changes so much.

I really don't see any wrong in how I acted. Sure anyone can just stop, but on the same token anyone can also protest.

I'm still confused by the idea that submissive girls of college age are so rare as to be "legendary".

I don't think they are that rare. If YC had met me in college/university, he would never have known I was submissive. If he met me now, as a stranger, he'd likely never guess that about me either. Not all women walk around with a giant "S" on their forehead for easy identification. There are as many different forms and levels of submissiveness as there are of any other personality traits. It takes patience and perceptiveness to see what is not obvious.

I submit to a very small percentage of males but those I submit to, I submit to completely.

Also, I think there are plenty of women who aren't comfortable with that aspect of themselves, particularly around college age. Women like MIS probably are rare, those young women that can embrace the fact that they are intelligent and capable but also need and enjoy submitting themselves to the will of another.

As for the bold text, I think Shank's response was accurate. I'll just add that I have a feeling, maybe ten years from now, maybe twenty,YC, it's likely that you will see what was wrong about your actions. Yeah, yeah, age, age, always with the age. LOL.

TV commercials are the same way. The wife is always the smart one, and the husband is the idiot that the wife is always correcting.

And women want us to cry, or we aren't sensitive enough for them. We don't get in touch with our emotions. We don't dress like we should. The furniture in our apartments and houses aren't color coordinated. When we get married, most of our stuff is set out for the trash, because the new wife won't allow it to stay in the same house with her stuff.

And they still want us to be manly, too? It's no wonder the men are afraid of spiders. The new dominating wives have them afraid to do anything without checking with them first.

Role models! Role models! Both girls and boys need good role models!

Don't get me started. And I wonder why I'm not married?


P.S.

It's about time this site came back up so I could post this. Damn, if I don't feel manly now!

If you were a real man you'd challenge the website to a fistfight!

The TV thing is annoying but I also think it's a case of the swinging pendulum. When I first started working in the business, almost all of the gags I did were rape scenes or women-as-victims. It wasn't until 2000 and beyond that women as action heroes or even women just being strong started to become common.

Women are becoming an economic force and the whores of Hollywood are trying to capitalize on that. It bugs the hell out of me but I suspect I'm not the majority.

You've touched on something that bothers me: The Man Makeover (see text in bold). I've seen this happen to too many of my male friends.

I have a good buddy who's very alpha male in most respects but his wife...*rolls eyes and curses under her breath*...man she runs his life. And he lets her!

They bought this big mansion, on a golf course, up in the hills. It was built to their specs and he trusted her to do most of the designing and decorating because he's busy and she has a good eye for that stuff. He only wanted one thing, and that was to have his Japanese ink print of his Tyee Chinook salmon hung in the dining room. It's a beautiful print, very tasteful - and I'm not just saying that because of my fish fetish. Do you think she would let him have that one thing? Nope, no way. It didn't fit with the rest of the decor.

I say fuck that, I say hang the damn thing and let her deal.

Nope.

The house is like a farking museum and there is not one iota of his personality in it. And this is just one example. How about the fact that he has to call her a dozen times a day when he goes on fishing trips with the guys or that there's always money on the travel budget for her endless days at the spa, when they're on vacation, but he's only allowed to sneak in one quick fishing charter? I want to smack him.

Personally, if I'm acting like a gimboid or I make a demand that's unreasonable, I want my partner to tell me to get stuffed. How else can I respect him?

 

[Netzach]

Fathers in absentia. I'll talk about that.

My observation is that boys raised without a responsible male taking on a parental role in their lives are at least as much at risk for hyper-masculinization as they are for a feminization of sorts.

Gang violence. General belligerence. Abusive behavior toward women. Tendency to compensate for feelings of personal inadequacy with fists, knives, and guns. Blatant disrespect for the mothers or grandmothers desperately trying to maintain order in their lives. That's what I mean by the "hyper-masculinization" of boys.

*cough*

I'd say that girls raised in the absence of positive male role models are also at risk for lots of things. Just because they're not as exciting as gang violence doesn't mean they're not worth addressing.

There's nothing at all said about that permutation. No one cares.

How precisely is someone like me supposed to learn anything remotely like healthy interaction with men other than by inventing the wheel?

 

[ownedsubgal]

*cough*

I'd say that girls raised in the absence of positive male role models are also at risk for lots of things. Just because they're not as exciting as gang violence doesn't mean they're not worth addressing.

There's nothing at all said about that permutation. No one cares.

How precisely is someone like me supposed to learn anything remotely like healthy interaction with men other than by inventing the wheel?

girls absolutely need a positive and consistent male role model in their lives, just as much as boys. and people do talk about that quite a bit, believe me, particularly in the african-american community.

 

[JMohegan]

*cough*

I'd say that girls raised in the absence of positive male role models are also at risk for lots of things. Just because they're not as exciting as gang violence doesn't mean they're not worth addressing.

There's nothing at all said about that permutation. No one cares.

How precisely is someone like me supposed to learn anything remotely like healthy interaction with men other than by inventing the wheel?

*hands Netzach a glass of water*

I didn't mention that permutation because I was writing in response to the idea that absence of a father figure for boys leads to their feminization. As I said, I don't necessarily believe that to be true.

Lots of people care about fatherless daughters. I have a very close friend whose father abandoned the family when she was very young. The effects for her have been lifelong, and devastating.

 

[ZRT]

I have met women who were looking for the 'father of their child' as in once they got done with the sperm donation, they were done.

It's not terribly common in my experience, but it is out there. Pretty disgusting to me on the part of both the man and the woman.

I think it is pretty obvious that we all agree on single parenting being a less-than-ideal situation. That was one of the things I keyed on earlier- if you make the baby, you take care of the baby. That's manhood, right there.

 

[callinectes]

*cough*

I'd say that girls raised in the absence of positive male role models are also at risk for lots of things. Just because they're not as exciting as gang violence doesn't mean they're not worth addressing.

There's nothing at all said about that permutation. No one cares.

How precisely is someone like me supposed to learn anything remotely like healthy interaction with men other than by inventing the wheel?

I think to say no one cares because it hasn't been mentioned on this thread is a stretch. It just isn't the subject at hand.

Having said that, I care a great deal. My daughter's father died about a year ago. She is quite young. I make sure she gets a lot of time with her uncle and grandfather, both of whom are wonderfully strong men who have good interaction skills with women (meaning they like women and treat them respectfully).

 

[Netzach]

I think to say no one cares because it hasn't been mentioned on this thread is a stretch. It just isn't the subject at hand.

Having said that, I care a great deal. My daughter's father died about a year ago. She is quite young. I make sure she gets a lot of time with her uncle and grandfather, both of whom are wonderfully strong men who have good interaction skills with women (meaning they like women and treat them respectfully).

I don't mean in terms of the thread. I mean when people do societal hand wringing about the impact of paternal non-involvement it's always in regard to the next generation of men.