Where are the femmes at?

[kbate]

Oh joy! The semi-annual tattoo and rebok count thread!

I have both.

:emoticon:

 

[Etoile]

kbate

 

[nici]

I don't know where I fall. I'm more of a jeans and t-shirt girl. I do enjoy dresses but since I don't go anywhere really, no point to dressing up.

I really don't think "femme" has that much to do with the clothing you wear. Within the various scene cultures there are always femme and butch. I feel "femme" is more a sexual orientation than a social/cultural.

Example: You could be a lipstick lesbian and love "dressing to kill" (just because it feels good) or a power lez (lipstick butch) and still dressing just the same as the classical femme lipstick lez. One is femme, and the other is butch. Both just set a value on our rights to our historical and innate femininity.

To me, you sound like a chapstick lez. (Which has nothing to do with femme or butch.)

Stereotyping that all butches wear jeans and wool shirts and all femme wear makeup and dresses just doesn’t fit. There are just too many scenes within our lesbian culture that that just can’t fit.

 

[Tara S]

I really don't think "femme" has that much to do with the clothing you wear. Within the various scene cultures there are always femme and butch. I feel "femme" is more a sexual orientation than a social/cultural.

Example: You could be a lipstick lesbian and love "dressing to kill" (just because it feels good) or a power lez (lipstick butch) and still dressing just the same as the classical femme lipstick lez. One is femme, and the other is butch. Both just set a value on our rights to our historical and innate femininity.

To me, you sound like a chapstick lez. (Which has nothing to do with femme or butch.)

Stereotyping that all butches wear jeans and wool shirts and all femme wear makeup and dresses just doesn’t fit. There are just too many scenes within our lesbian culture that that just can’t fit.

Is there a place on the net that lists all the scenes - I'm curious to see where I fit in the official fieldbook.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

new here, but definitely lesbian and definitely femme.
*sigh*
I can't help it...I love the clothes and makeup and all the trappings.

Don't mistake being femme for being prim and proper though

 

[nici]

Alright, so maybe I am trying to liven up the board a bit, and this post may be off topic, but really, the topic of this thread is really really broad anyway.






Am I crazy? Do the way these posts come off not bother anyone else at all? I am a femme bisexual (at least in dress/looks), so maybe there is just a disconnect for me that prevents me from understanding some things. Maybe I am just paranoid of people and an obnoxious person. Sometimes, I really get the feeling that some people are gay for the purpose of being a 'minority culture', not so much that they have sex with the same sex. I honestly believe that there is absolutely no such thing as gay culture, and there should not be such a thing as gay culture.

Now, I know Etoile is not some highschool girl pretending to be gay so that she can stand out, but it's the concept that homosexuals should somehow automatically stand out from heterosexuals that just completely fries my brain. The idea that being mistaken for being heterosexual, or to assume a person will be heterosexual is bad/sad, when most people are heterosexual, or bisexual which involves heterosexuality anyway, is just ridiculous to me. As is the idea that a homosexual 'lifestyle' exists. The idea that such a thing would exist would mean that there is something truly different about homosexuals than their heterosexual neighbors, friends, and family. If that were the case, then it feels like a basis for discrimination would exist. The idea just really rubs me the wrong way.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you. There is a "gay culture" and even though you might not agree with the reasoning for its being. It is there.

We are what we are because of our experiences. Therefore there are those of us that wish to live in our "womyn's" world.

Just as there is in the Het world various cultural differences, why can't we have our? Why try to push us all through the blender and homogenize us all to the same?

Het isn’t bad or good, just as queer isn’t bad or good… just different. Your thinking is the same as those who can’t seem to understand the feminist philosophy of “our equality in rights while maintaining our femininity”.

 

[AussieAngel]

Well this thread has been an interesting read.

I'm not sure what stereotype i could be put under. I guess i am a little in Jasmines situation.

I know.. i love the whole.. holding her in my arms as she falls asleep. loving all her cute little quirks. she doesnt have to be a sex goddess. or a model. just real. I dont think i am overly masculine. so what is the middle ground. between femme and butch? maybe i am that.

 

[nici]

And no, you didn't sound bitchy - you did sound a little like my sister, who is an academic...

~ Neon

I though she sounded kind of.... sexy.

 

[nici]

Is there a place on the net that lists all the scenes - I'm curious to see where I fit in the official fieldbook.

I don't think there is one site that would list all the scenes with the " LGBT scene" (note absence of the "C" word), but if you google "Gay Slang" you will come up with a ton of sites that have various references to the various scenes. But here's a link that should help you out: Gay Slang Dictionaries.

On another note; there seems to be too many misunderstandings about the definition of "Culture". (At least I feel) The word "culture", in context to the debate/discussion, and in reference to how I understood the original poster, shouldn't it be more fittingly "sub-culture"?

 

[neonflux]

I don't think there is one site that would list all the scenes with the " LGBT scene" (note absence of the "C" word), but if you google "Gay Slang" you will come up with a ton of sites that have various references to the various scenes. But here's a link that should help you out: Gay Slang Dictionaries.

On another note; there seems to be too many misunderstandings about the definition of "Culture". (At least I feel) The word "culture", in context to the debate/discussion, and in reference to how I understood the original poster, shouldn't it be more fittingly "sub-culture"?

Re: the culture comment - yes, from a sociological standpoint, it is certainly a "subculture" although it's interesting to note the similarities between "gay cultures" on a global level - i do think that even beyond whatever grows out of our almost ubiquitous oppression, there are some commonalities that are immediately recognizable across what would be defined as "real" cultural boundaries and that those are linked at some level to our "gender variance" or our ability to mirror, examine, play with, shed a light on gender, as it were. For instance, it seems that some sort of drag is pretty ubiquitous, although it's purpose might change from culture to culture - entertainment, religious, etc.

OK, I promised myself that I wasn't going to take things to seriously tonight...

Back on topic!

Neon

 

[neonflux]

I though she sounded kind of.... sexy.

You haven't met my sister, I see

ADDED: OK, I just realized how bad that sounded, and I didn't mean to imply anything about my sister - btw, she is my favorite person in the world... (and no, there is nothing odd like that about our relationship, but she does "do" queer theory, even though she's straight by orientation)

 

[nici]

You haven't met my sister, I see

ADDED: OK, I just realized how bad that sounded, and I didn't mean to imply anything about my sister - btw, she is my favorite person in the world... (and no, there is nothing odd like that about our relationship, but she does "do" queer theory, even though she's straight by orientation)

Ahhh... ummmm... I wasn't actually thinking of your sister.

I do admit that I have this "thing" for brainy academic chicks. It's her "power exchange" aura, her assertiveness.

 

[nici]

Re: the culture comment - yes, from a sociological standpoint, it is certainly a "subculture" although it's interesting to note the similarities between "gay cultures" on a global level - i do think that even beyond whatever grows out of our almost ubiquitous oppression, there are some commonalities that are immediately recognizable across what would be defined as "real" cultural boundaries and that those are linked at some level to our "gender variance" or our ability to mirror, examine, play with, shed a light on gender, as it were. For instance, it seems that some sort of drag is pretty ubiquitous, although it's purpose might change from culture to culture - entertainment, religious, etc.

OK, I promised myself that I wasn't going to take things to seriously tonight...

Back on topic!

Neon

Definitely!

Social psychologically, our Judo/Christian/Roman/Greek based Western culture has many subcultures and scenes within it. They are defined by our individual personalities and interests.

We are a mixed social culture where diversification is the catalyst towards change and adaptation. Just as with so many areas of social diversification, without the help of our “gay/lesbian subculture and scenes”, our Western culture would not only stagnate, (and in this instance) remaining a masculine dominated heterosexual culture, but also “pervert” into the extremisms of heterosexual patriarchy. (Diversification, change and adaptation does not necessarily mean conflict, but can be a stabilizing effect.)

I do not feel that it is a case of our “gay culture and scenes” defining us, but rather we define our gay subculture and create the scenes we want and need. We are our “learned behavior”, and create our society to our needs. This in turn, changes “our” learned behavior. So even though we cannot step beyond our learned behavior “of what good girls do and what good girls don’t do”, we change that “learned behavior” and it adapts.

Because of our cross cultural commonalities in our interests and needs, there can only be so many differences between gay/lesbian subcultures, between “cultures”. As our world becomes smaller these differences will naturally lessen.

 

[playwithlezli]

Being part of the gaystream to me, means inherent acceptance of my relationship. We are very accepted by our hetro friends and family, but we are a bit of an oddity too, the only lesbian couple they know. The biggest stumbling block we run into is minor really, more of an irritant, but they don't seem to see us as "serious" as they would if we were hetro. There would be no questions as to why we spend so much time together, drive 40 minutes one way just to spend the night together 13 nights out of 14 etc.

So, part of me wants to be more a part of a gay community, another part of this shows me that we can be good leaders in being accepted.

I never feel like I can 100% relax in hetro communties though, who do we need to be considerate of, who doesn't know yet and needs to be told quietly etc. Who isn't comfortable with same-sex affection.

So maybe if there is no need for a separate gay identity, the hetro community needs to be 100% accepting, no sideways looks and nudges, no freak show attitude, no bringing us holy water.

Anyways, I know this is not up to my usual writing standard, and I am too tired to get into erudite academic diatribes, so that's how I feel, take it or leave it.

 

[playwithlezli]

I guess there are a lot of little ways to feel excluded from the mainstream. I was going through the mail, got a picture listing of different books from the book of the month club. The sex books were hetro sex and from the very brief glance I had of the novels, looked like they involved hetro couples, not homo. Sometimes I find that there are lesbian scenes, or thoughts or characters in mainstream books, but not a lesbian couple that is just a couple. Hard to explain clearly maybe what I mean but there are times when a couple is a couple, not a native couple or black couple or white couple or straight couple or gay couple.

It's these litte exclusions that tell us we are not yet part of everyday life.

Merely an observation.

 

[Night_Jasmine]

Maybe you ladies can tell me where I fall then since you're more experienced with this than I am.

I'm submissive in some ways. Her needs are important to me. As far as myself, I love to be cuddled and held at night. I like having doors opened for me, even though I blush when it's done. I wouldn't mind being appreciated and even spoiled from time to time (although I usually end up spoiling the one I'm with and forgetting myself). I'm not agressive unless I or my loved ones are threatened.

 

[neonflux]

Being part of the gaystream to me, means inherent acceptance of my relationship. We are very accepted by our hetro friends and family, but we are a bit of an oddity too, the only lesbian couple they know. The biggest stumbling block we run into is minor really, more of an irritant, but they don't seem to see us as "serious" as they would if we were hetro. There would be no questions as to why we spend so much time together, drive 40 minutes one way just to spend the night together 13 nights out of 14 etc.

So, part of me wants to be more a part of a gay community, another part of this shows me that we can be good leaders in being accepted.

I never feel like I can 100% relax in hetro communties though, who do we need to be considerate of, who doesn't know yet and needs to be told quietly etc. Who isn't comfortable with same-sex affection.

So maybe if there is no need for a separate gay identity, the hetro community needs to be 100% accepting, no sideways looks and nudges, no freak show attitude, no bringing us holy water.

Anyways, I know this is not up to my usual writing standard, and I am too tired to get into erudite academic diatribes, so that's how I feel, take it or leave it.

I will take it, always

Re: the feeling of not being able to relax 10)% in hetero communities, even now, having a male SO (thank the Goddess that so many of his friends are LGBT), I completely understand. When I am with my own, I relax in a way I cannot elsewhere - I am able to "sink into the comfort of my home."

I do admire you for being so out where you live - it's easy here in SF. After traveling, especially going to conferences, I am reminded of just how much of a bubble I live in....

Neon

 

[neonflux]

Maybe you ladies can tell me where I fall then since you're more experienced with this than I am.

I'm submissive in some ways. Her needs are important to me. As far as myself, I love to be cuddled and held at night. I like having doors opened for me, even though I blush when it's done. I wouldn't mind being appreciated and even spoiled from time to time (although I usually end up spoiling the one I'm with and forgetting myself). I'm not agressive unless I or my loved ones are threatened.

Jas, I'm not sure where you fall based on what you've told me. I am not sure that those things you mention are any indication of where you fit on the butch-femme spectrum. (I think everyone enjoys being spoiled, LOL.) To me it has more to do with how you present - how you dress, how you carry yourself. Recently, in my circles (kinky grrls and womyn) have had more than one younger butch, seemingly submissive woman clearly express interest in getting to know me better. But whether due to age or role, they expect me to make the move.

I am very assertive, like to take control, but still consider myself femme (high femme when I was younger at a time in history it was unacceptable to present as anything but "androgynous). I wear make-up, I enjoy women's fashions, I wear pointy-toed shoes. When I dress in more "masculine" wear I feel like I'm in drag... More so than when I actually adopt my gay-boy persona and DO drag, LOL.

Not sure that this is making sense...

~ Neon

 

[Night_Jasmine]

It does in a way. I wasn't sure if it's personality types or dressing. *sighs* I dress up when I have to or the rare times I had a good reason for doing so. When I do, it's feminine. Honestly, if I had my choice, I'd go the old fashioned style. I love the flowing sleeves, somewhat low neckline. *pouts* Dress I have in my closet and nowhere to wear it yet or reason to...peasant smock type with tiered skirt. I hate make up but love jewelry.

But most of the time, I'm casual with jeans and t-shirt. *smiles slightly* Be nice to have a reason and person to dress up for.

 

[Night_Jasmine]

As far as the submissiveness goes, that's an older facet of myself I discovered but during the time I was still married. He took advantage of a lot of that and didn't give back as I needed him to. *shrugs*

 

[Etoile]

I guess there are a lot of little ways to feel excluded from the mainstream. I was going through the mail, got a picture listing of different books from the book of the month club. The sex books were hetro sex and from the very brief glance I had of the novels, looked like they involved hetro couples, not homo. Sometimes I find that there are lesbian scenes, or thoughts or characters in mainstream books, but not a lesbian couple that is just a couple. Hard to explain clearly maybe what I mean but there are times when a couple is a couple, not a native couple or black couple or white couple or straight couple or gay couple.

It's these litte exclusions that tell us we are not yet part of everyday life.

Merely an observation.

Fortunately there is a gay book club to make up for that!
http://www.insightoutbooks.com/

 

[yevkassem72]

I'm a guy, but I must say that I have noted plenty of lesbians who seem quite femme. This is a big board, so you should find a few.

 

[neonflux]

As far as the submissiveness goes, that's an older facet of myself I discovered but during the time I was still married. He took advantage of a lot of that and didn't give back as I needed him to. *shrugs*

Then you are certainly MUCH better off without him.

The femme thing, it's so interesting... I do think that queer women do it differently. BTW, your dress-up mode sounds like a lot of the women I "came up" with.

~ Neon

 

[Nirvanadragones]

Then you are certainly MUCH better off without him.

The femme thing, it's so interesting... I do think that queer women do it differently. BTW, your dress-up mode sounds like a lot of the women I "came up" with.

~ Neon

I'm here to kiss Neon.

Oh, yes, and I'm lesbian. And I'm woman. Whichever way that goes, is good for me.

 

[Night_Jasmine]

I just love the old styles..more romantic type I guess.

Hey Vana...