Why do they bother asking?

[lovecraft68]

Many of us have been there. Another author asks you to beta read a WIP and wants to know what you think. Often times even with the "Even if its not positive" and we know what happens. We point out a few things and either get told we're wrong, get a nasty reaction, or you don't hear from them again.

Why do they ask if they know their work is so flawless? Is it to have their ego fluffed because they think you'll come back with "OMG I'm going to give up writing after I checked out your masterpiece!" I tend to believe that more and more.

Latest incident that sparked me to do this occurred this week. An author I keep in touch with after I left a local writer's group asked me to look at their latest work, and tell me what I thought. The main point to this is their insistence that they want this to be as realistic and plausible as possible, so if I notice anything that makes me think "No, not happening" let them know.

Okay.

keeping this brief its a noir sort of piece, PI ends up getting on the wrong side of a crazy cult that abducted the clients son, basic enough. There's a sex and sleaze factor-I think they were going for some Angel Heart style.

The MC is pushing forty and its mentioned early on that he's been smoking a pack to two packs a day since he was 16. 20+ years of hardcore smoking. Okay, fine. MC is developing a nasty little cough and discusses how he's 'not what he used to be' okay, going for the old grizzled dude with one good fight left in him? I like those. Also a mention he's let himself go a bit. Smokes, coughs, decreased physical attributes, bit overweight, yeah, fine.

Then we get to a scene where two young guys break into his house, he subdues one of them in a decent enough fight sequence-which, and this is key, the author mentions him taking a good hit to the gut and while struggling to breathe goes into a coughing jag

Now...here's the point of this. The second kid-and we find out this kid is a star Wide receiver on the local college team-bolts out of the apartment and the MC chases him. Down three flights of stairs, across a street through an alley, and three blocks-yup, three-catches up to the kid and tackles him.

I e-mail back full stop on this. There is no way someone in that sorry shape with a pair of damaged lungs and a gut over his belt is chasing down a 20 year old athlete. The guy hacks when he starts laughing, and he's going to run a quarter mile wind sprint and catch a kid who runs a 4.3 forty yard dash? Like, hell no.

Of course, he gets an attitude. I told him if he just wants to roll with fiction gotta fiction, then yeah, have fun. But he asked "what doesn't seem feasible" and that is just as fake as it can get.

I'm fifty six, never smoked a day in my life. Jogged for 35 years before my knee started barking, still hit the gym three times a week and am at my exact ideal weight. I still spa at the dojo with guys half my age and hold my own for the most part and there is no way in holy hell I am chasing down a goddamn college football player let alone over that distance including stairs, hopping a fence and running around obstacles. I'd say 'fuck this' after a block. Let alone some chain smoking out of shape sort who spends half the book talking about how he retired from the force because he couldn't keep up with the 'pups' anymore.

Then I get the all too familiar. "I don't know what I'm talking about."

I finally just told him to piss off and go find someone who'll kiss his ass the way he wants.

Again, scene itself would make me roll my eyes-and I have seen this shit in movies-but if its just 'there' fine. But the whole 'I'm a mess these days" mantra followed by being Jason Bourne when "I want this shit to be real" yeah, no.

Back to the title, why do they ask?

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Back to the title, why do they ask?

Why did you ask? You stated the answer right in your question.

-Annie

 

[NaughteeDragon]

It's hard to kill your babies. (Blame King for that analogy.)
I've had that issue a couple of times. A scene I just loved and someone came back and said "this is a problem." It was hard to go back and change it, but that is what I asked for. The story was better for it, but it was hard to hear.

 

[StillStunned]

Taking feedback is an acquired skill. Plenty of people think asking is the hard part, they think they'll be receptive to the comments and suggestions. But when they're actually faced with them, it feels like an attack.

It's one of those things where you don't understand the pain until you've experienced it. No matter how much you tell yourself you'll be OK with it, when you read someone's comments it's difficult not to go on the defensive.

It also depends very much on how the feedback is phrased. When I edit or beta-read, I try to make most of my comments in the form of suggestions: "Perhaps you should highlight this, tone that down. This seems to contradict what you said there, and that seems a bit implausible unless you give a reason."

Also:

I still spa at the dojo with guys half my age and hold my own for the most part

That typo gives this an entirely different meaning...

 

[lovecraft68]

Taking feedback is an acquired skill. Plenty of people think asking is the hard part, they think they'll be receptive to the comments and suggestions. But when they're actually faced with them, it feels like an attack.

It's one of those things where you don't understand the pain until you've experienced it. No matter how much you tell yourself you'll be OK with it, when you read someone's comments it's difficult not to go on the defensive.

It also depends very much on how the feedback is phrased. When I edit or beta-read, I try to make most of my comments in the form of suggestions: "Perhaps you should highlight this, tone that down. This seems to contradict what you said there, and that seems a bit implausible unless you give a reason."

Also:

That typo gives this an entirely different meaning...

How dare you critique my spelling? What the fuck do you know, you...you....grammar shamer!

Actually, I was typing with my Rhode Island accent and we don't pronounce are R's "Spaaaaaa"

I get what you're saying its not easy to have your hard work picked at, but if you ask, and the person is constructive with the goal being let's make your work even better, an adult should be able to handle it. I wasn't rude, I basically said they set this guy up be unhealthy, then have him chasing someone down who's in peak physical condition and easily. It was a contradiction to what he was previously portraying in the character.

 

[ronde]

Why do they ask if they know their work is so flawless? Is it to have their ego fluffed because they think you'll come back with "OMG I'm going to give up writing after I checked out your masterpiece!" I tend to believe that more and more.

I believe your statement about "ego fluffing" is probably the true reason a lot of people ask for feedback about anything.

I've only edited the stories of a dear friend who speaks English as a second language and was more than willing to accept most of what I told her about her work, but I've seen the same thing with employees I have supervised over the years. They'd bring me an engineering report and casually ask me to tell them what I thought. Very often, their conclusions were obviously written to "prove" the hypothesis of the study instead of accurately reflecting what a valid analysis of their data should have told them. What they were really doing was looking for validation of their work in hopes of improving their perceived status. That status with me as well as their peers was that they were a poorly performing employee.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

It's hard to kill your babies. (Blame King for that analogy.)

King didn't say it first.

https://slate.com/culture/2013/10/k...writer-really-said-to-murder-your-babies.html

-Annie

 

[NaughteeDragon]

True, but King's On Writing was where I first heard it.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I spent years attributing it to Faulkner, before someone pointed out to to me that it was older than that.

-Annie

 

[lovecraft68]

King didn't say it first.

https://slate.com/culture/2013/10/k...writer-really-said-to-murder-your-babies.html

-Annie

He also rarely does it, some of his books after his 70's to late 80's hey day are so bloated and rambling even I notice it. He wrote one called Insomnia that was the cure for said ailment.

I remember when they made a huge deal of releasing the version of the Stand that was close to 300 extra pages (It published originally, I think around 800) and I checked it out and thought whoever cut all of that out did a great job because it was just repetitive crap, and a lot of sadism.

 

[StillStunned]

I remember when they made a huge deal of releasing the version of the Stand that was close to 300 extra pages (It published originally, I think around 800) and I checked it out and thought whoever cut all of that out did a great job because it was just repetitive crap, and a lot of sadism.

At least he had an editor to make those cuts. In the past few decades there have been several authors who've been "above" being edited.

JK Rowling, for example: if I recall correctly, the last three books didn't have an editor, and it shows. I barely made it through the fifth, realised it could have been told in 200 pages, then never read the last two. Or watched the last few movies.

And Robert Jordan had his wife edit the later books of The Wheel of Time. He could have used a Lester Del Rey to cut them down to size. (Of course each volume raked in millions, so there was really no incentive to wind the story down. Just keep adding characters and braids to be tugged and arms to be folded beneath breasts and woolheaded men to be grumbled at, and ignore the noise.)

 

[taytay4eva]

Taking feedback is an acquired skill. Plenty of people think asking is the hard part, they think they'll be receptive to the comments and suggestions. But when they're actually faced with them, it feels like an attack.

It's one of those things where you don't understand the pain until you've experienced it. No matter how much you tell yourself you'll be OK with it, when you read someone's comments it's difficult not to go on the defensive.

Yup. Furthermore, if you've only ever gotten feedback from friends and family, folks who don't want to risk hurting your feelings, it can be hard to accept that you really do have some things in your writing that you need to work on.

It also depends very much on how the feedback is phrased. When I edit or beta-read, I try to make most of my comments in the form of suggestions: "Perhaps you should highlight this, tone that down. This seems to contradict what you said there, and that seems a bit implausible unless you give a reason."

And sometimes the best thing is to say "<this part> doesn't work for me because it doesn't feel realistic, if a realistic vibe is what you're going for" or something like that. I've been taught that it's better to say what you like and don't like than to list off possible fixes, with places to look for info and people you could talk to to better your story falling into that category as well.

 

[lovecraft68]

On this topic, I've found that one issue with getting feedback-and hard not to do when giving it-is to put your personal feelings on a topic aside. Its possible to not like the subject matter but keep that out of whatever things you're pointing out. Its not supposed to be "That was sexual assualt, not sex, and I think..." that's not what a person who may be writing NC is looking for.

I haven't asked for much feedback here, I have an 'inner circle' of sorts through my time publishing where we help each other out, but last time I did the person took the time to read the story, started with the story had more depth than expected and flowed, but every single thing after that was "No man would ever, and no guy does this, and she would have been, and,,,but none of those critiques were based on the setting and characters of the story, but their take on real life....this is what I got for sending someone a hot wife style story where the husband was a willing participant in his wife's encounters. So, again the feedback wasn't based on mistakes in the writing or things that I might have said differently, or made shorter etc, just "reeeee"

I have however been politely and justifiably eviscerated on some things, and I'm not going to say I don't wince a bit, but they're usually right, and sometimes we have to realize not everything we type is gold.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Many of us have been there. Another author asks you to beta read a WIP and wants to know what you think.

Nope. No one has ever asked me to beta read. I've seriously offered once and got no reply.

I will say that I had a friend read the first nine chapters of my first novel (in progress) years ago. The first thing that she said was that she did not care about my main character (first person narrator) and had no sympathy for her whatsoever. I was shocked, but then I went back and realized, hrmm, maybe I actually didn't do enough to foster sympathy after all. I didn't want her to be a damsel, t o be that cardboard, so I purposely had her make a couple of bad choices to get her into her bad situation. It certainly wasn't all her fault, she was young and naive and made some bad choices, but certainly did not deserve her predicament. That was the intent at least. But I had overdone it, so I went back and beefed up a couple of the flashback scenes in the early chapters to balance things out and make her more sympathetic.

What I really learned (and this was a huge lesson) was that you can never be sure that you have painted the right picture. As the author, you already know all of the back details, so it is difficult to see if any are missing in the words that you put down. It is a blind spot. If something is missing, a good beta reader will tell you, or at least sense that something doesn't add up.

So when I wrote my romance novel last year the first question that I asked my two beta reader friends on the first chapter was "Do these two have enough chemistry?" I mean I thought that they did but it was far too important to the story to just assume that I had nailed it. Both of them effectively said, "Hell yes, why are you even asking?" and I was like, "Whew!" because you really don't know how things will come across when someone opens it up and reads it cold.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

but they're usually right,

Or at the very least they have a point that you would be wise to take into consideration, even if you don't end up changing much.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Did the guy he was chasing NEED to be an elite athlete?
Just seems like an easy fix... change the other character to someone who isn't in shape either. You could probably create some sharp internal monologue about how he only started chasing him out of habit and he's surprised he's gaining on him... My God, this kid I'd actually in worse shape than I am...

ETA I've found when you are pointing out stuff like that they seen to take it better if you have a solution for them, with a side of flattery.

 

[lovecraft68]

Did the guy he was chasing NEED to be an elite athlete?
Just seems like an easy fix... change the other character to someone who isn't in shape either. You could probably create some sharp internal monologue about how he only started chasing him out of habit and he's surprised he's gaining on him... My God, this kid I'd actually in worse shape than I am...

ETA I've found when you are pointing out stuff like that they seen to take it better if you have a solution for them, with a side of flattery.

I did suggest that because as you said, really simple fix. I offered that he could have been falling behind, ready to give up and the kid fell or got hit by a car (I rambled on about how he could use the device of getting there as the kid is dying and he says some cryptic bullshit about the cult)

The other suggestion was cutting back on painting the MC out to sound like he's the after in a before and after gym ad, so he could have him pull off some physical stunts that would seem possible of he wasn't a walking billboard to quit smoking.

I've run into these issues myself. I write a femme fatale character and I'm all about bad ass tough females, but there are times I have to sit back and admit that a woman can't pull off certain acts that require just sheer physical strength the way a male character could. Being in shape has its limits.

The toxic shithead you tubers who's dick shrinks even more if a woman wins a fight in a movie, do have a point on occasions with some of them being way too far fetched. 105 pound women do not take several punches to the face from a 220 pound guy, then get up and beat the crap out of them...no.

But you write the scene allowing them to use space, speed, leverage and skill, and yes, they can win that fight.

I have a mostly written "how to" I'm doing for someone writing an action novel of "writing a believable female fighter" I'd kicked around the idea of posting it here as a How to, but figured I can do without upsetting man baby nation.

I solved this problem for myself in my EH series by making the witch part of a bloodline that are physically stronger than the average man or woman so I don't have to explain how she can survive a solid punch then retaliate in knock out fashion. Built in cheat code.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I did suggest that because as you said, really simple fix. I offered that he could have been falling behind, ready to give up and the kid fell or got hit by a car (I rambled on about how he could use the device of getting there as the kid is dying and he says some cryptic bullshit about the cult)

The other suggestion was cutting back on painting the MC out to sound like he's the after in a before and after gym ad, so he could have him pull off some physical stunts that would seem possible of he wasn't a walking billboard to quit smoking.

I've run into these issues myself. I write a femme fatale character and I'm all about bad ass tough females, but there are times I have to sit back and admit that a woman can't pull off certain acts that require just sheer physical strength the way a male character could. Being in shape has its limits.

The toxic shithead you tubers who's dick shrinks even more if a woman wins a fight in a movie, do have a point on occasions with some of them being way too far fetched. 105 pound women do not take several punches to the face from a 220 pound guy, then get up and beat the crap out of them...no.

But you write the scene allowing them to use space, speed, leverage and skill, and yes, they can win that fight.

I have a mostly written "how to" I'm doing for someone writing an action novel of "writing a believable female fighter" I'd kicked around the idea of posting it here as a How to, but figured I can do without upsetting man baby nation.

I solved this problem for myself in my EH series by making the witch part of a bloodline that are physically stronger than the average man or woman so I don't have to explain how she can survive a solid punch then retaliate in knock out fashion. Built in cheat code.

That's unfortunate. I've had more than a few cases where good feedback has not just fixed a problem but opened up some avenues that made the story significantly better.

 

[designatedvictim]

I believe your statement about "ego fluffing" is probably the true reason a lot of people ask for feedback about anything.

I have a sad feeling that I may be one of those wanting to be fluffed.

I didn't have the balls to go into Story Feedback to ask once I started posting my work, because I suspected I'd melt down. Sniffle...

Having said that, when I posted the third part, I got some... unsolicited feedback on my work from another site author. It was pretty mild, too.

Of course, I thought he was wrong. Or, at least, mistaken. I wasn't upset, just a touch irked.

Then I reread my story from the start with his comments in mind and disgustingly quickly agreed that he was right in his comments.

This was something as simple speaker-tagging. I'd hate to have someone point out some serious flaws in what I've done.

What I really learned (and this was a huge lesson) was that you can never be sure that you have painted the right picture. As the author, you already know all of the back details, so it is difficult to see if any are missing in the words that you put down. It is a blind spot. If something is missing, a good beta reader will tell you, or at least sense that something doesn't add up.

That was my mistake, too. I knew it was obvious who was speaking, so why shouldn't everyone else?

Taking feedback is an acquired skill. Plenty of people think asking is the hard part, they think they'll be receptive to the comments and suggestions. But when they're actually faced with them, it feels like an attack.

I agree. And I have yet to develop that skill.

 

[lovecraft68]

Everyone is different, and often times how close to the heart we take feedback, or even rude people in real life, depends on your life experience.

I've often thought, and I know I am being unfair, but these are my thoughts and I'm not looking for agreement, is that if someone not liking your story is that crushing to you, then be grateful, because I suspect you've led a fairly normal and decent life.

Perspective can be a powerful wake up call. I had a Baker's cyst rupture in my left knee. Was in some pain for about a month, but for the last year my wife has been dealing with cancer and just lost her kidney. So, is my sore knee that big of a deal? Making that wakeup call worse was when I went to my doctor to follow up after the ER, I held the door open for a woman pushing her husband in a wheelchair who only had one leg. I have no complaints is how that made me feel.

Rip my work to shreds, but know what? I'm here, I'm healthy, my bills are paid, I own a home and there's food in the fridge. My daughters and grand kids are happy and healthy, my parents have some health issues, but both are eighty and still among the living and my wife is now cancer free after a year of hell and back.

I know its hard, but we need to remind ourselves, its only writing, and most feedback is only opinion.

Now, that I am done sounding human, I'll go back to being a shit.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Rip my work to shreds, but know what? I'm here, I'm healthy, my bills are paid, I own a home and there's food in the fridge. My daughters and grand kids are happy and healthy, my parents have some health issues, but both are eighty and still among the living and my wife is now cancer free after a year of hell and back.

Glad to hear about your wife.

-Annie

 

[gunhilltrain]

Why did you ask? You stated the answer right in your question.

-Annie

Some people seem to confuse this place with Harper's Magazine or The Paris Review. Or they want someone to hold their hand during the journey. I think for Lit: just publish it and see what happens. The whole job is yours, and you will get feedback or you won't - well, someone will surely at least vote on it. They owe you nothing but yet if they still like it - maybe then you're getting somewhere.

 

[nice90sguy]

Ive had a couple of people beta read my stuff, and in both cases, I got what I wanted -- a completely unexepected response, which really helped me with some "blind spots" I have about my own writing. I approached these two people because they were great writers, but even more so,, because I knew they were not particualrly into the theme of my stories, and would therefore not be biased.

 

[Rollinbones]

If I'm chasing really honest criticism, I'll ask my wifey to beta read something. She's soul crushingly honest. "Hey... You asked, wankerhead!" That kind of honest.

 

[NaughteeDragon]

That was my mistake, too. I knew it was obvious who was speaking, so why shouldn't everyone else?

I got that comment a couple of times on my first story. Even in a conversation between two people you stil need to add place holders