Why is it so Challenging...

[lady_jennaxx]

Thank you Lady Jenna! Hopefully this will spark some good discussion.

Time will tell.

 

[ReaperW]

Whilst I not quite ready to weigh in on the notions of masculinity and femininity, I do agree with some previous posters about the role of toxic masculinity in preventing some male subs from being comfortable in themselves. It's not them all, certainly. It is a little frustrating to have made a significant connection and to realise that they'll never fully be happy with themselves because of their enjoyment of submission. As a caring domme it breaks my heart a little. I hope your search proves more fruitful in the long run and that you lovely submissive men can understand that you do not devalue yourself as a man when you offer control to a woman. Unless that's what you want!

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Whilst I not quite ready to weigh in on the notions of masculinity and femininity, I do agree with some previous posters about the role of toxic masculinity in preventing some male subs from being comfortable in themselves. It's not them all, certainly. It is a little frustrating to have made a significant connection and to realise that they'll never fully be happy with themselves because of their enjoyment of submission. As a caring domme it breaks my heart a little. I hope your search proves more fruitful in the long run and that you lovely submissive men can understand that you do not devalue yourself as a man when you offer control to a woman. Unless that's what you want!

Thanks for joining the discussion ReaperW! I can relate very strongly to the experience of being conflicted about my own submissive tendencies, particularly since I received quite a traditional upbringing. I find it interesting that these social paradigms still influence me and many other submissive men even as our logical selves can dismiss them. It's nice to know there are caring dommes out there looking/rooting for us although that being said I have nothing against those who, for want of a better phrase, value being devalued.

 

[lady_jennaxx]

Thank you ReaperW and Eloquent_Hedonist

 

[supercollider00]

A friend sent me this article which falls nicely into the discussion you're all currently having: https://slutphd.com/2017/02/12/submission-is-masculine-too/

I do actually think that culturally speaking, submissive men really aren't as accepted as submissive women. I think it's more complex than just the "strong man, weak woman" stereotype as well. It's a shame really (pun intended) since submission can such a beautiful thing in the right hands. As I've said always: whatever floats your boat as long as it doesn't hurt someone else (excepting it that pain is wanted ).

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

A friend sent me this article which falls nicely into the discussion you're all currently having: https://slutphd.com/2017/02/12/submission-is-masculine-too/

I do actually think that culturally speaking, submissive men really aren't as accepted as submissive women. I think it's more complex than just the "strong man, weak woman" stereotype as well. It's a shame really (pun intended) since submission can such a beautiful thing in the right hands. As I've said always: whatever floats your boat as long as it doesn't hurt someone else (excepting it that pain is wanted ).

A very interesting article Supercollider! A very good lunch break read. I especially like the idea of emphasising masculine traits in one’s submissive expression rather than downplaying them.

I do think one point of note would be the concept of variation over time. I am partial to the idea of being about to adopt ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ (not to enforce the stereotype, but in consideration of the conversation in question) submissive traits in different situations. Unsure if this is a trait desirable by dominants however...

 

[ReaperW]

It really is an interesting read but EH I think you touched on a point about reinforcing stereotypes. It's hard to avoid them when we talk about what is considered masculine or feminine but it does feel like this could also reinforce it. That said, I too would love to be at the point where being a submissive male is not something automatically humorous.

The only other thing I'd add is that in a more feminist and progressive society, being a submissive female is also sometimes problematic. I've heard it described as regressing the feminist movement, for example. That's an internal struggle I foresee more of in the future alongside that of male submissives.

Great article though and I'll definitely be discussing with others in the future

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

It really is an interesting read but EH I think you touched on a point about reinforcing stereotypes. It's hard to avoid them when we talk about what is considered masculine or feminine but it does feel like this could also reinforce it. That said, I too would love to be at the point where being a submissive male is not something automatically humorous.

The only other thing I'd add is that in a more feminist and progressive society, being a submissive female is also sometimes problematic. I've heard it described as regressing the feminist movement, for example. That's an internal struggle I foresee more of in the future alongside that of male submissives.

Great article though and I'll definitely be discussing with others in the future

That's a really good point, something I didn't consider on my first reading. I do think though that if you consider gender as a bivariate spectrum you can still use the masculine/feminine dimension without alienating those who do not identify themselves with those terms.

Also, thank you for raising the issue of male submission being used as a comedy crutch. It was something I found very difficult early in my sexual awakening when I saw figures in art and entertainment made fun of for expressing traits I found appealing. I assume this also extends to dominant women who find depictions of them as only sadistic and cruel (and also usually tied to a derogatory view of the sex industry).

That's an interesting situation as well. I have seen examples of similar behaviour regarding women choosing to orient their life choices around traditional family structures (e.g. electing to forgo careers and prioritising raising children) but I have never seen it extend to the bdsm community. It's a shame since they are usually so forward thinking.

 

[supercollider00]

I think one of the issues at hand as well is our view culturally of what is masculine and feminine. These are not solid concepts, they're changing over time. For example, 30 years ago it was abnormal to see a woman being a scientist but it's become more and more normal. Attitudes are finally actually changing, and it's something one can see in universities around the world. The battle isn't won, but at least it's going forward.

Also, a lot of the adult content we see especially in BDSM is so incredibly gendered. This is a reaction to cultural images really. I don't think it's that surprising or random that so much BDSM porn is based on the extreme stereotype of the sissy or bimbo if the woman is the submissive.

I've often also met people that can be quite different between their D/s dynamic and their lives. Submissives such as myself that normally have control are far from abnormal. D/s and fantasies in general let us often live through what is considered taboo, and often what is taboo is something that is more desireable. Hence, I highly doubt the common female submissive is really reinforcing the patriarchy for example. However a lot of the media content for female submissive might reinforce that idea. Connected to that is also that shame is a powerful element of D/s for many.

 

[ReaperW]

Apologies lady jenna but this is one of the most interesting thread-jackings I've read in a while...

Super - don't even get me started on gendered porn. I love watching a man cum, on his own or with a partner, in that expressive twitchy way. Have you ever tried to search for that? If I type in man solo intense, I can almost guarantee that 8/10 videos that pop up will be women solo. I end up on gay porn sites half the time, but that's not always useful. And then heaven help me if I want to see a m/f couple having sex, in ANY way. I get to see the woman, but rarely all of the man. Even in porn that's supposedly geared to women.

EH - that's a very valid point about raising children etc. I have thankfully not come across too much of that but now you've put it out there I realise I guilt myself on that front sometimes, when I make decisions to prioritise family over career.

It's really lovely to hear your views on how society has affected your opinions and development of your own submissiveness. I hope enlightened chaps like yourselves will be the reason other men gain confidence in their desires. And we've come a long way already.

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Indeed, perhaps we should start a separate thread to save Lady Jenna our bothersome babbling

On the point of gendered porn: I can imagine it must be quite hard to find a breadth of good stimulating porn for women. I even find it hard as so much of it falls back on stereotypes like semi-incest and in particular narrative constructs that put the woman in an pseudo-unwilling situation (e.g. can't pay rent/needs a ride). I find these set ups really uncomfortable, why can't people just be horny and want to have sex! One site I would highly recommend Reaper is BrightDesire.com. they do some wonderful scenes with real couples.

It's understandable that you'd feel that pressure despite having a conscious understanding of it's lunacy, the same way I still feel pressure to adhere to stereotypical masculine behaviour patterns (although I think I'm getting much better at avoiding the toxic ones).

Well thank you for that Reaper! It's good to know that the idea of a sub being more than grovelling mouth and a gaping arse holds appeal to some among this community. I certainly hope that will be the case, as it would be nice to find connections on this platform that can substitute (at least temporarily) for the fulfilment that this blasted pandemic is currently denying us.

 

[lady_jennaxx]

Indeed, perhaps we should start a separate thread to save Lady Jenna our bothersome babbling

On the point of gendered porn: I can imagine it must be quite hard to find a breadth of good stimulating porn for women. I even find it hard as so much of it falls back on stereotypes like semi-incest and in particular narrative constructs that put the woman in an pseudo-unwilling situation (e.g. can't pay rent/needs a ride). I find these set ups really uncomfortable, why can't people just be horny and want to have sex! One site I would highly recommend Reaper is BrightDesire.com. they do some wonderful scenes with real couples.

It's understandable that you'd feel that pressure despite having a conscious understanding of it's lunacy, the same way I still feel pressure to adhere to stereotypical masculine behaviour patterns (although I think I'm getting much better at avoiding the toxic ones).

Well thank you for that Reaper! It's good to know that the idea of a sub being more than grovelling mouth and a gaping arse holds appeal to some among this community. I certainly hope that will be the case, as it would be nice to find connections on this platform that can substitute (at least temporarily) for the fulfilment that this blasted pandemic is currently denying us.

EH, RW and SC thank you all for such intelligent, interesting and well thought out comments on this thread. You all have certainly provided lots of food for thought, not only for myself but others who might peruse the thread

 

[lady_jennaxx]

Have pondered lowering my standards but...eh, I'm not one to settle

 

[ReaperW]

And why should you! You'll only regret it later...

 

[lady_jennaxx]

And why should you! You'll only regret it later...

So true, Reaper. Onward and upward

 

[Stevew0073]

Have pondered lowering my standards but...eh, I'm not one to settle

You should not have to settle. I have been unowned for 5 years now and know the right lady is out there it just takes time. Hang in there.

 

[lady_jennaxx]

You should not have to settle. I have been unowned for 5 years now and know the right lady is out there it just takes time. Hang in there.

Thanks for the kind words Stevew

 

[Stevew0073]

Thanks for the kind words Stevew

You are welcome Ma’am. I would be honored to chat anytime you like.

 

[lady_jennaxx]

Friendly bump...

 

[lady_jennaxx]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

 

[sherbetburps]

Bumpetty-bump. I have nothing insightful to contribute, but I really love this thread and I hope you find what your heart desires

 

[lady_jennaxx]

Bumpetty-bump. I have nothing insightful to contribute, but I really love this thread and I hope you find what your heart desires

Thank you, I appreciate it

 

[guns4444]

Im a very masculine and dominant man in my everyday life. College football player, advanced weight lifted, superintendent at work, I mean all of the above. But sexually I would love to and I yearn to submit. Unfortunately my wife is sexually submissive as well, so I have never experienced the joy of submitting. But I am not afraid to admit I am sexually submissive.

 

[lady_jennaxx]

Im a very masculine and dominant man in my everyday life. College football player, advanced weight lifted, superintendent at work, I mean all of the above. But sexually I would love to and I yearn to submit. Unfortunately my wife is sexually submissive as well, so I have never experienced the joy of submitting. But I am not afraid to admit I am sexually submissive.

Thank you for sharing guns4444

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Im a very masculine and dominant man in my everyday life. College football player, advanced weight lifted, superintendent at work, I mean all of the above. But sexually I would love to and I yearn to submit. Unfortunately my wife is sexually submissive as well, so I have never experienced the joy of submitting. But I am not afraid to admit I am sexually submissive.

Thanks for sharing guns4444, bravo for being honest with yourself. While I don't see myself as particularly manly or unmanly (I think my identity has elements of both) due to my upbringing marrying the concepts of submission and masculinity was a challenge for me.

I was shown this article by another lit user (which one currently eludes me but I will update this post to properly credit them when I get a chance) and I think you will find it very interesting.

https://slutphd.com/2017/02/12/submission-is-masculine-too/

All the best for you,

EH