wife panics before reaching orgasm

[pa32]

My wife gets a panic attack and stops me before she reaches orgasm. I don't think she's ever had a good hard orgasm because of this. Sometimes she's said that she feels like she has to pee and that triggers the panic. Other times she doesn't know what triggers it, but it is scary enough that she has to stop immediately. Anyone else deal with this? What is the solution?

 

[theunknown2008]

My wife gets a panic attack and stops me before she reaches orgasm. I don't think she's ever had a good hard orgasm because of this. Sometimes she's said that she feels like she has to pee and that triggers the panic. Other times she doesn't know what triggers it, but it is scary enough that she has to stop immediately. Anyone else deal with this? What is the solution?

It sounds like she just needs to let go. Make her feel comfortable about it. I had a girl that use to start crying and would stop. She would also tell me that feels like she has to pee. After talking about it for a while, she finally felt comfortable with me to let it happen. She was balling and started gushing all over the place, it was fucking hot to see that I made her that hot. i mean she got up out of bed and ran to the bathroom, leaking all the way there. My advice is try to make her feel comfortable and what is happening is perfectly normal. It sounds to me like she is affraid she will horrify you.

 

[silverwhisper]

pa32 quoth:
my wife gets a panic attack and stops me before she reaches orgasm. i don't think she's ever had a good hard orgasm because of this. sometimes she's said that she feels like she has to pee and that triggers the panic. other times she doesn't know what triggers it, but it is scary enough that she has to stop immediately. anyone else deal with this? what is the solution?

i don't know a blessed thing about you, your wife or your history as a couple, but there are clearly factors in her past that might be related:

1. has this always been the case in your relationship, or is this a new development? i would imagine it's been true throughout your relationship.

2. was she raised in a strict environment? i can easily imagine how being discovered masturbating while growing up might've made it difficult for her to let go now. thi actually happened to one of my friends. it was fairly traumatic for her.

i have a few other ideas, but first i want to know about those 2 pieces of information, since the answers will substantially impact whatever might or might not be relevant.

ed

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

My wife gets a panic attack and stops me before she reaches orgasm. I don't think she's ever had a good hard orgasm because of this. Sometimes she's said that she feels like she has to pee and that triggers the panic. Other times she doesn't know what triggers it, but it is scary enough that she has to stop immediately. Anyone else deal with this? What is the solution?

Ahhh, this is an easy one. If she feels like she is going to pee, it’s not pee: she is getting ready to squirt. The fluid that squirts from her urethra is not pee; it comes from a special gland that wraps around the urethra behind her G-spot. This gland is the female equivalent of the male prostate. This is perfectly normal.

If I remember right, it’s called a Skene gland, but I may not have the name right. Do some research on the internet, (Wikipedia and others), and explain to her what is causing this feeling. Then put down some towels to catch the fluid, (it gets really wet), and tell her to embrace the feeling. Then get ready for an experience: when she releases that fluid, it’s hot, (temperature wise), and when that hot fluid washes down over your balls, it should make you push deep and cum involuntarily. And it feels good!

After a woman has sex, and finds a huge wet spot on the bed, that’s where the fluid is coming from. Usually, the fluid is clear, odorless and doesn’t stain.

 

[coastal-boy]

Ahhh, this is an easy one. If she feels like she is going to pee, it’s not pee: she is getting ready to squirt. The fluid that squirts from her urethra is not pee; it comes from a special gland that wraps around the urethra behind her G-spot. This gland is the female equivalent of the male prostate. This is perfectly normal.

If I remember right, it’s called a Skene gland, but I may not have the name right. Do some research on the internet, (Wikipedia and others), and explain to her what is causing this feeling. Then put down some towels to catch the fluid, (it gets really wet), and tell her to embrace the feeling. Then get ready for an experience: when she releases that fluid, it’s hot, (temperature wise), and when that hot fluid washes down over your balls, it should make you push deep and cum involuntarily. And it feels good!

After a woman has sex, and finds a huge wet spot on the bed, that’s where the fluid is coming from. Usually, the fluid is clear, odorless and doesn’t stain.

Have you ever witnessed a panic attack?

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

Deleted due to irrelevancy to the original post.

 

[coastal-boy]

Yes, in fact I have witnessed a real panic attack. What pa32 is describing is anxiety, not a panic attack. A real panic attack during sex is when woman loses control both emotionally and physically and starts screaming and fighting. When a woman has a panic attack like this, it is almost always a sign of repressed memories of sexual abuse as a child, and you have said something, or done something that triggered a flashback.

So have I, and since there are many degrees of panic attacks and you aren't there to make a medical determination, maybe you should re-word your responses away from "fact" and more towards "possibilities". If this person actually is having a panic attack, doing what you suggest could fuck her up emotionally. If she isn't having panic attacks, then what you are stating may be true...but until THAT time when that is determined, I will rely on the wording the OP uses and not your "professional opinion". What triggers it when she doesn't feel like she is going to pee as the OP clearly stated?

 

[silverwhisper]

nasty deeds quoth:
yes, in fact i have witnessed a real panic attack.

translation: i have witnessed a single panic attack and therefore will extrapolate endlessly from there until my opinion should be regarded as fact.

nasty deeds quoth:
what pa32 is describing is anxiety, not a panic attack. a real panic attack during sex is when woman loses control both emotionally and physically and starts screaming and fighting.

translation: i have no fucking clue what i'm talking about and no relevant medical or psychiatric training upon which such opinions could possibly be based, especially in light of the paucity of data in the OP.

ed

 

[coastal-boy]

Yes, in fact I have witnessed a real panic attack. What pa32 is describing is anxiety, not a panic attack.

you do realize, general anxiety can cause panic attacks right? Of course you do. I'm also confident you also realize that anxiety can be anticipatory, which means that the anxiety is in response to the fear of having an attack. People whom have attacks are embarrassed by them. They think there is "something wrong" with them and they really don't want to have someone else know...they are judging themself and think that others will judge them similarly.

 

[pa32]

Thanks all. When these panic attacks occur, it is the end of our session, period. No more cuddling or anything for a day or two. Whatever it is, it is frightening enough that she withdraws completely.

Silverwhisper: This has always been the case, although it has gotten more pronounced as time went on. I suspect that is more because I've learned her body a bit better and can get her up to the edge easier rather than due to her becoming more sensitive.
He family was rather disfunctional and emotionally abusive. Mom was a raging alcoholic and Dad enabled it and didn't stand up against it. As far as I can tell there wasn't any religious strictness. However, I think she's mentioned a lot of "good girls don't do that" starting at a very early age. She claims to have never masturbated, and I believe that. I get the impression that she was strongly reprimanded for sticking her hands in her panties at an early age.

Nastydeeds, no, it is beyond just having to relax. There is a real phobia, anxiety, or something at work here.

 

[SweetErika]

It sounds like there's a lot of complex stuff going on here. Is therapy an option at all?

If so, she should look into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to manage her anxiety, and down the road, even something like hypnosis may be helpful.

 

[pa32]

Sweeterika,
she's in counseling, but will not bring up sexual issues. She says she is too embarrassed to talk about sex with a counselor. She won't really even talk to me about it, changes the subject when she can. Likewise, she skips over sex scenes in books and ignores them in movies/tv. Says it makes her feel creepy and like she's spying on something that it private.

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

Thanks all. When these panic attacks occur, it is the end of our session, period. No more cuddling or anything for a day or two. Whatever it is, it is frightening enough that she withdraws completely.

Silverwhisper: This has always been the case, although it has gotten more pronounced as time went on. I suspect that is more because I've learned her body a bit better and can get her up to the edge easier rather than due to her becoming more sensitive.
He family was rather disfunctional and emotionally abusive. Mom was a raging alcoholic and Dad enabled it and didn't stand up against it. As far as I can tell there wasn't any religious strictness. However, I think she's mentioned a lot of "good girls don't do that" starting at a very early age. She claims to have never masturbated, and I believe that. I get the impression that she was strongly reprimanded for sticking her hands in her panties at an early age.

Nastydeeds, no, it is beyond just having to relax. There is a real phobia, anxiety, or something at work here.

This post makes more sense as to what you are dealing with. Two things that you said, plus coming from a dysfunctional family tell a lot. First her statement: "good girls don't do that" and secondly, she never masturbates.

You do understand that all anyone can do on a message board is guess? With that being said, I agree, it does sound possibly like something she learned at a very early age. If she was reprimanded, (or punished), for playing with herself at a very early age, and taught that "good girls don't do that", every little girl wants to be a good girl for her parents. Children learn in ways that we don’t completely understand, and sometimes what a child learns can affect the rest of their life.

I really don’t think a psychologist or therapy will be of much help; however, you probably can. I would suggest reading up on how women overcome psychological obstacles placed in their subconscious as a child. You don’t have to become a doctor or anything, but reading up on the subject can help you understand her better. You need to read specifically about women, because men deal with psychological issues entirely different than women.

This is going to take time, but if it does stem from her childhood, she needs to re-learn the difference between what is right and wrong for a child, and what is right and wrong for an adult. You would think an adult would automatically know the difference, but this is not always the case. She may never learn to masturbate, but she can learn to accept sexual pleasure from you.

I say you can help where a psychologist can’t because you can help her sexually, (if that is what is needed), where a psychologist cannot. What you need to do is learn how to get inside of her mind, and understand why she feels and acts as she does. Whatever is causing her hang-up likely stems from a single incident, or a series of incidents. To help her, you have to get inside her head, and find out what that incident was. She may not even know herself, but with enough trust and dialog, she will remember, and it will come out.

Also, whatever she tells you, you cannot overreact, even if she tells you that she was sexually abused as a child. When dealing with issues like this, keep yourself reminded, you are helping her find her way through the forest, not giving her sympathy because she is lost. Also, keep in mind, you cannot change what may have happened in her childhood, you can only change the present.

Psychology and therapy is no mysterious art, anyone can learn to do it. Psychology is just finding out what caused the issue and finding a solution for it.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth, and as I said, anything anyone tells you on a message board is little more than a guess, regardless of who they are.

I suspect it is something that happened to her as a child, and as punishment, someone made her feel like a bad girl, and now she is overcompensating by trying to be a good girl.

 

[bailadora]

<snip> Psychology and therapy is no mysterious art, anyone can learn to do it. Psychology is just finding out what caused the issue and finding a solution for it.

Once again, I find myself vehemently disagreeing with Nasty Deeds (no surprise there).

If psychology and psychiatric treatment/therapy were as easy as he makes it sound, there would be no requirement for those who wish to practice this as an occupation to undergo rigorous training, testing and formal licensing. Any responsible adult should realize those criteria are in place specifically to protect people from being significantly and possibly irreparably damaged by self proclaimed "experts."

PA32 - Since she seems to be reluctant to discuss this with her therapist or with you, a better approach might be for you to have your own counseling session (either with the same therapist or someone else). While it might not directly diagnose the problem, the therapist could help you formulate a plan to foster an environment in which she might feel more at ease discussing these things with you or with her counselor. At the very least, the therapist can help you formulate your own coping strategies as you support your wife through her issues.

 

[silverwhisper]

pa32 quoth:
this has always been the case, although it has gotten more pronounced as time went on. i suspect that is more because i've learned her body a bit better and can get her up to the edge easier rather than due to her becoming more sensitive.

yes, that theory would seem to make sense to me.

pa32 quoth:
...there wasn't any religious strictness. however, i think she's mentioned a lot of "good girls don't do that" starting at a very early age. she claims to have never masturbated, and i believe that. i get the impression that she was strongly reprimanded for sticking her hands in her panties at an early age.

gotta confess, i have the same impression as you do.

does your wife understand that:

1. she's sexually dysfunctional
2. this is a bad state of affairs
3. if she wants this to change, she has to take ownership of her part in effecting change?

nasty deeds quoth:
i really don’t think a psychologist or therapy will be of much help.

i'm sure it will come as a massive surprise that i think nasty deeds's advice sucks.

ed

 

[SubNebGuy]

She needs to get in the bathtub with a vibrator and get herself off. Not that she will pee, but if she's one of those amazing women that can squirt their orgasmic juices (which aren't urine based), that could be what she's feeling.

If she can pass this little hurdle on her own (so she's not embarassed by you being there) in a safe environment (who hasn't peed in the tub/shower??) I think it'll help her get over her mental block more than anything.

 

[Firefly69]

Panic and anxiety can be very difficult to deal with. I know.. I've had to face both over the years. I was almost to the point where I was agoraphobic and unable to leave my home.

The thing about it though, is there will be no getting better until she decides to face it and make a conscious choice to work through these issues. Coming to that point is not always easy. Admitting it to oneself, much less to other people, is not easy.

For me, I had my first panic attack while driving my car out of town. On that very day, I stopped driving out of town completely. (that was 11 years ago) Then, I proceeded to not drive AT ALL for two full years. I've been able to work past some of it and am able to drive in town now, but still struggle with leaving town and can't even think about driving on the interstate. (considering I used to be able to drive anywhere without breaking a sweat... its been difficult to deal with)

I only bring up my struggle to show that it can take a long time to get over these issues. And in order to face them, a person needs to first be able to acknowledge they exist. You say shes in therapy now, but can't talk about anything sexual. That is a huge problem. She can't even start to get around these issues until she has the courage to face up to them.

And courage is what it takes. Its not easy to face yourself and change years of programming. In fact, for many people, it can actually make the panic and anxiety worse at first. I know it did for me. I'm of a firm belief that these issues can be faced without medication-- but I know there are times when meds can help to bring a person to a place where they are able to function a little better and are more willing to try to overcome their problems.

Is she on any medication? Does she acknowledge at all, that she has a problem? Is she willing to put in the work needed to face herself?

Because if she not willing, this will most likely be an ongoing issue.

I am in no way a professional in this area-- I am just speaking from my own personal experience with panic and anxiety. I just find that one of the hardest steps to take is just admitting what the problem is. For many years-- I hid my anxiety and thought there was something really wrong with me-- or thought that I was going crazy. Not something you really want to tell people.

The best thing for you to do-- is to be encouraging, offer her support and know when to back off and when to push a little bit. You can help her overcome this with lots of patience on your part-- but just realize that she needs to overcome this through her own efforts as well.

 

[coastal-boy]

She needs to get in the bathtub with a vibrator and get herself off. Not that she will pee, but if she's one of those amazing women that can squirt their orgasmic juices (which aren't urine based), that could be what she's feeling.

If she can pass this little hurdle on her own (so she's not embarassed by you being there) in a safe environment (who hasn't peed in the tub/shower??) I think it'll help her get over her mental block more than anything.

OK, since I have this reputation for being an asshole...let me be one. I made this simple and bolded some important points that certain people seem to be incapable of comprehending or simply miss in their excitement and desire to post. This is not about being a squirter. This is not a "mental" block.

My wife gets a panic attack and stops me before she reaches orgasm. I don't think she's ever had a good hard orgasm because of this. Sometimes she's said that she feels like she has to pee and that triggers the panic. Other times she doesn't know what triggers it, but it is scary enough that she has to stop immediately. Anyone else deal with this? What is the solution?

Thanks all. When these panic attacks occur, it is the end of our session, period. No more cuddling or anything for a day or two. Whatever it is, it is frightening enough that she withdraws completely.

Silverwhisper: This has always been the case, although it has gotten more pronounced as time went on. I suspect that is more because I've learned her body a bit better and can get her up to the edge easier rather than due to her becoming more sensitive.
He(r) family was rather disfunctional and emotionally abusive. Mom was a raging alcoholic and Dad enabled it and didn't stand up against it. As far as I can tell there wasn't any religious strictness. However, I think she's mentioned a lot of "good girls don't do that" starting at a very early age. She claims to have never masturbated, and I believe that. I get the impression that she was strongly reprimanded for sticking her hands in her panties at an early age.

Nastydeeds, no, it is beyond just having to relax. There is a real phobia, anxiety, or something at work here.

Sweeterika,
she's in counseling, but will not bring up sexual issues. She says she is too embarrassed to talk about sex with a counselor. She won't really even talk to me about it, changes the subject when she can. Likewise, she skips over sex scenes in books and ignores them in movies/tv. Says it makes her feel creepy and like she's spying on something that it private.

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

My wife gets a panic attack and stops me before she reaches orgasm. I don't think she's ever had a good hard orgasm because of this. Sometimes she's said that she feels like she has to pee and that triggers the panic. Other times she doesn't know what triggers it, but it is scary enough that she has to stop immediately. Anyone else deal with this? What is the solution?

Here is another thing you can try, which may or may not work.

When she panics during sex, don’t let her stop: force her to face her demons. (Assuming that you are stronger than she is) The intent behind M/s and D/s relationships is not to be therapeutic, but the principal is the same: to consensually push a woman past her limits, so that she is able to experience a new level of pleasure, of which she may have denied herself in the past.

If you should decide this may be of benefit, it has to be consensual, so talk to your wife first. If your wife agrees this may help, read-up on how a Dom takes control of his sub during play-time.

Not just women, but both men and women: sometimes forcing a person through their subconscious block can empower them to take control of their demons, and when a person is in control of their emotions; their demons evaporate into the ether.

You would be surprised at how strong a woman can become when her Dom is in control.

 

[bailadora]

Here is another thing you can try, which may or may not work. When she panics during sex, don’t let her stop: force her to face her demons.

Pa32, only do this if you want to :

A) cause significant emotional/mental damage to your wife
B) totally destroy any trust she may have in you
C) all of the above.

 

[bailadora]

OK, since I have this reputation for being an asshole...let me be one.

[\hijack]



Huh. That totally doesn't apply to how I've seen you interact here on HT, CB. Kind of makes me wonder if that accusation comes from the same camp labeling Sweet E and Ed as thread hijackers and Fuckmeat as sexually repressed.

[/hijack]

 

[SweetErika]

Pa32, only do this if you want to :

A) cause significant emotional/mental damage to your wife
B) totally destroy any trust she may have in you
C) all of the above.

My thoughts exactly. Consensual domination w/ a safeword and signal might work if the wife was just concerned about peeing, squirting, letting go, etc. But her history and symptoms point to something so much deeper that she may very well just freeze up and not even be able to get out a safeword. If my husband kept going when I was in that state/panicking, it'd really traumatize me.

[\hijack]



Huh. That totally doesn't apply to how I've seen you interact here on HT, CB. Kind of makes me wonder if that accusation comes from the same camp labeling Sweet E and Ed as thread hijackers and Fuckmeat as sexually repressed.

[/hijack]

Probably so, but I think he's also had issues with Mac as well. Still, I don't see him as being an ass here at all.

 

[cryforme1v]

My wife gets a panic attack and stops me before she reaches orgasm. I don't think she's ever had a good hard orgasm because of this. Sometimes she's said that she feels like she has to pee and that triggers the panic. Other times she doesn't know what triggers it, but it is scary enough that she has to stop immediately. Anyone else deal with this? What is the solution?

before orgasm? no sorry i cant help with that.
But after orgasm - i have always had panic attacks. I dont know what originated it but my way of dealing with it is a bit weird.
When i feel i start to panic, i have my boyfriend slow down and we just stop for bout 2 -3 minutes then i'm normally good to go.

 

[Nasty_Deeds]

Consensual domination w/ a safeword and signal might work if the wife was just concerned about peeing, squirting, letting go, etc. But her history and symptoms point to something so much deeper that she may very well just freeze up and not even be able to get out a safeword. If my husband kept going when I was in that state/panicking, it'd really traumatize me.

I agree, some women would be traumatized by a D/s relationship; however, other women thrive on the strength and stability of a D/s relationship. Everyone is different. And pa32, (the original poster), is the only one who knows his wife, and the only one who is able to know what kind of relationship she may or may not respond to.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, even though I am writing this in the third person by responding to another post, it is meant to benefit the original poster, as well as anyone else who may find it interesting.

The original post, (of only 2 ½ lines), lead me to believe that her anxiety, or panic, was being caused by feeling like she was going to pee on her lover as she approached orgasm. This is actually not an uncommon problem among women, and has a very simple solution: education. Once a woman understands this feeling is not pee, but rather a normal accumulation of fluid in the urethra as a woman approaches orgasm, and is helped through the experience a few times, the anxiety disappears.

I can only give my opinion as to why a woman squirts. When a woman squirts this fluid from her urethra, it soaks the man’s testicles. This fluid is much hotter than skin temperature, and when it soaks the man’s testicles; from my experience, it causes the man’s stomach muscles to tighten, forcing the penis deeper into her vagina; sealing the head of the penis against her cervix. The hot fluid also makes the man ejaculate his sperm through the cervix, and directly into the uterus/womb, (rather than just into the vagina); thereby insuring pregnancy. But as I said, that’s just my opinion.

When a person uses the term “panic”, I think of panic triggering the “fight or flight” response. When a person panics, I think of a person either running away screaming, or screaming and fighting. Either way, it turns physical. When someone withdraws emotionally, I think of anxiety. That being said, both can be a serious issue.

In a subsequent post by pa32, I began to understand the problem was more than just the fear of peeing on her lover, it seemed to stem from an incident occurring in her childhood. This becomes a more serious issue, and more difficult to resolve.

Not to minimize his wife’s trauma, but the real issue here is not what happened in her childhood, the real issue that has to be resolved is “fear”. Trauma creates fear, and fear paralyzes us.

Regardless of what caused it: Fear is Fear, and regardless of what caused it, to get past the fear, One must face it. Fear is not a tangible thing; rather, fear is mental concept or thought. Fear does not exist in any physical form, and when a person confronts their fear, (and overcomes it), fear disappears, never to return. There are two ways to overcome One’s fear: One can be coaxed through their fear, or One can be pushed.

An Example: Keeping in mind, regardless of what caused it, “fear is fear”. When a person is afraid of water, they can sit in therapy for the rest of their life, but until they get into the water, (and confront their fear), they can never overcome it. You can coax some people into the water, and when they discover they are not going to drown, they will learn that swimming can be fun, but not everyone is strong enough to take the last step and face their fear, even though more than anything, they want to overcome their fear and learn to swim. When this is the case, they have to be pushed.

However, whether you coax someone through their fear, or push them, you have to be there to support them until they get control of themselves emotionally, and learn they are not going to drown. This is true whether it is fear of water, sex or anything else. It isn’t necessarily what caused pa32’s wife to panic during sex, it is how to overcome the fear it caused.

Some women can be coaxed through confronting their fear, other women simply aren’t strong enough emotionally, and need a push. And the person doing the coaxing or pushing has to be there to support her until she realizes that she isn’t going to drown and she can swim.

This is the principal behind M/s and D/s, (although few Doms or Masters are bright enough to realize it). When a woman wants to expand her limits, and for whatever reason can’t take that last step into the water, her Dom pushes her past her limits and stays with her until she realizes that she has discovered something wonderful.

Whether any of this may work for pa32 and his wife, only pa32 and his wife can answer that.

Just my opinion.

 

[bailadora]

Not to minimize his wife’s trauma, but the real issue here is not what happened in her childhood, the real issue that has to be resolved is “fear”. Trauma creates fear, and fear paralyzes us. Regardless of what caused it: Fear is Fear, and regardless of what caused it, to get past the fear, One must face it.

One can't begin to face their fear until they understand the cause of it. The latter helps to formulate the plan to minimize/eradicate the former. I'm no mental health professional, but even I'm smart enough to realize that and reputable, credible documentation backs me up:

The psychodynamic psychotherapy regimen used in the study was so successful that the American Psychiatric Association is in the process of changing its guidelines to reflect the new findings, according to researcher Barbara Milrod, MD. Milrod is an associate attending physician at New York-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center and an associate professor of psychiatry at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York City.

The twice-weekly sessions are focused on the symptoms of panic disorder as well as garnering insight about the various unconscious factors that may have caused the panic disorder to develop in the first place. Such focus on the unconscious is the basic underpinning of psychoanalysis. In the new study of 49 people with panic disorder, more than 70% of those in the talk therapy group showed significantly less anxiety and other panic symptoms as measured by a standard scale assessing panic symptoms. By contrast, just 39% of those participants who received applied relaxation training showed an improvement in their symptoms.

"People really got better -- not just a little better," Milrod says

Full article found here.

This is the principal behind M/s and D/s, (although few Doms or Masters are bright enough to realize it). When a woman wants to expand her limits, and for whatever reason can’t take that last step into the water, her Dom pushes her past her limits and stays with her until she realizes that she has discovered something wonderful.

If PA32's wife won't even TALK about sex, what in hell makes you think she'd be open to a D/s dynamic? Based on his description of the situation, it seems like just about ANYTHING having to do with sex triggers an attack. Look at his words:

There is a real phobia, anxiety, or something at work here.

That's an altogether graver situation than a submissive having some sexual reservations. To advocate/assert anyone other than a qualified mental health professional is equally capable of effecting non-traumatic treatment is misguided at best and morally reprehensible at worst. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Nasty Deeds. But I sincerely hope that anyone with even a modicum of moral, ethical and common sense recognizes this suggestion for what it is: mental and psychological abuse.