Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The Face?

[Amy Sweet]

So, by this notion, had we been talking about the Mormon polgymany/pedophilia camp in Northern Arizona... then that they were convincing or telling underage girls that their getting tagged by all the men in town was "godly" makes the religious coercion or backdrop ENTIRELY irrelevant, right?

Like, we can't call anything brainwashing or wrong on that religious front because Mormons are good people and justifying the molestation religiously is cool?

Hello again.

Palygamy is one of the original tenants of Mormanism. There is a link. As earl said, it's more than one person saying, by far. It is something entrenched in the church.

Do I think 'brainwashed' is overused- yes- yes I do. I don't think brainwashed is the right word at all, it's sensationalism at it's worst. It's a shortcut as well. Anytime someone has a different oppinion (especially if they are your children) you can claim they are brainwashed. I could claim you are brainwashed by the Clerics of Logic. I could claim that all religious or even non-religious teaching to minors is brainwashing or indoctrination.

Paganism has no tenent of mollesting children or breaking the laws of the land. There is no link. Just because the backdrop of religion may be relevent in one case does not make it relavent in another. There's no more link to paganism and child abuse than there is to homosexuality and child abuse or school teachers and child abuse.

 

[Liar]

It's about religion and it's about abuse. It's not about just one or the other the two are quite obviously intertwined IN THIS CASE.

It's no more about a religion than it is about a penis. He used both in wrongful ways to abuse.

But you're right. Eyes on the ball. Joe made a bad judgement and posted some flippancy. Big deal. So have most of us sometime. Move on, folks.


EDIT: or was it a she? Same thing. Replace with what-have-you, while I go read the article again. The discussion has gone so far I forgot the real issue.

EDOT 2: Went back, it was a she. Same principle applies.


#L

 

[TheEarl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The Face?

Same as my opinion about religion in general. But that's not popular around here, either.

Joe - lay it out. I have no problem with your opinion on religion, whatever it is (I honestly must've missed this discussion). If you can debate with it, then fair enough. I'm always willing to listen and debate about opinions; I won't ever censor you. Tell me.

So, by this notion, had we been talking about the Mormon polgymany/pedophilia camp in Northern Arizona... then that they were convincing or telling underage girls that their getting tagged by all the men in town was "godly" makes the religious coercion or backdrop ENTIRELY irrelevant, right?

Like, we can't call anything brainwashing or wrong on that religious front because Mormons are good people and justifying the molestation religiously is cool?

Joe, you are skipping right past the point and I'm getting the impression you are doing it deliberately. The Mormon paedophilia camp was lots of Mormons with their own twisted little belief system (which is presumably separate from mainstream Mormonism) that it was okay to have sex with children. This is one woman who happens to be Wicca, where there is no evidence that her religion was used to convince the girl that their relationship was okay.

You show me a group of Wiccans who abuse children using their religion to convince them that they are doing right, and you'll have a point. This is one woman. And there is no evidence or suggestiong that her religion was used for the 'brainwashing.'

It's about religion and it's about abuse. It's not about just one or the other the two are quite obviously intertwined IN THIS CASE.

You can trawl through every religion,cult, belief movement etc etc etc and find some people who have used their postion to corrupt innocents.

There is nothing being said about a group of people, except maybe child molesters and power abusers and well they deserve all they get in my mind.

EL: Why are they intertwined? Did she tell the girl that Gaia said it was okay? All I'm seeing is paedophilia with the victim happening to have the same religion as the abuser.

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Amy Sweet
Hello again.

Palygamy is one of the original tenants of Mormanism. There is a link. As earl said, it's more than one person saying, by far. It is something entrenched in the church.

Do I think 'brainwashed' is overused- yes- yes I do. I don't think brainwashed is the right word at all, it's sensationalism at it's worst. It's a shortcut as well. Anytime someone has a different oppinion (especially if they are your children) you can claim they are brainwashed. I could claim you are brainwashed by the Clerics of Logic. I could claim that all religious or even non-religious teaching to minors is brainwashing or indoctrination.

So teaching the child that its alright to fuck it because they're now married under Pagan ritual law is the same thing as having a strong desire to handle problems and their hopeful solutions with strict adherance to logic?

Because... it's all brainwashing?

Paganism has no tenent of mollesting children or breaking the laws of the land. There is no link. Just because the backdrop of religion may be relevent in one case does not make it relavent in another. There's no more link to paganism and child abuse than there is to homosexuality and child abuse or school teachers and child abuse.

If the backdrops are categorically similar, then yes it may be relavent in both cases.

Case 1: Guy tells little girl that the fucking that she's been getting from all the men in town is alright because she's in a special religious category--an age of maturation and marriage to the community.

Case 2: Woman tells little girl that the fucking they've been doing is alright because she's in a special religious category--a marriage to the non-minor.

Categorically, these bear very similar traits. Enough so that I think a correlation can be easily, and obviously drawn. The religious part, despite all desire to protect Wicca from bad press, is relavent. Nobody is saying that fucking underage children is part of the religion, just that the religion was part of fucking this underage child.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Cantdog, you talk the most remarkable damned sense.

Shanglan

Right. So the article was poorly written, had a tendency to mis-emphasize, and might have some facts twisted. It also arises in a context of sensationalism. Why? It's a news article. Skip it.

How about the issues it raises, and the issues Joe raises? Or raises flippantly, if you insist.

Sure the article sensationalized the link to Wicca. Equally predictably, the articles on the priests sensationalized that link. A person would have to be from a place quite alien to this country not to see that coming. In fact, the priest articles leapt immediately to the conclusion that the church had to defend itself, now that this story was out.

Whereas the importance of membership or leadership in either religion is very minor compared to the main issue, in each case it was still significant. With pedophile priests was the damage they did to the RCC. I think we have to admit that this teacher did damage to Wicca. Day care providers who hire someone like this find their business drops away. The school in which she taught was likewise discredited. The priests gave a double dose to the RCC because they did it in a church context as well as with a strong church identification.

Joe pointed these things out, irreverently. So has every informal commentator on the RCC priests issue. People find these things push buttons, very saisfactorily.

A thread not long ago pushed some "South" buttons. It was irreverent, it was flippant, it was insensitive.

Yep.

cantdog

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The Face?

EL: Why are they intertwined? Did she tell the girl that Gaia said it was okay? All I'm seeing is paedophilia with the victim happening to have the same religion as the abuser.

Amd even if she did, I'm not sure Gaia woulda approved. Wiccan faith does not as far as I know condone child abuse. So she also abused her and the girl's religion.

#L

 

[sweetnpetite]

So teaching the child that its alright to fuck it because they're now married under Pagan ritual law is the same thing as having a strong desire to handle problems and their hopeful solutions with strict adherance to logic?

Because... it's all brainwashing?

You're good at twisting things.

Funny, you can't see obvious meaning behind your own words, but you can make incredible reaches with others.

 

[English Lady]

Aye..I second What Black Shanglan says. Cantdog does speak sense.


Earl - Well the religion is brought in with the marriage ceremony bit surely. it's in there -same as in anything. The act itself is often not the story it is who is commiting the act that is.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The Face?

Originally posted by TheEarl
Joe - lay it out. I have no problem with your opinion on religion, whatever it is (I honestly must've missed this discussion). If you can debate with it, then fair enough. I'm always willing to listen and debate about opinions; I won't ever censor you. Tell me.

Religion may be the most important thing we've ever done as a society and is an essentially good thing.

Joe, you are skipping right past the point and I'm getting the impression you are doing it deliberately. The Mormon paedophilia camp was lots of Mormons with their own twisted little belief system (which is presumably separate from mainstream Mormonism) that it was okay to have sex with children. This is one woman who happens to be Wicca, where there is no evidence that her religion was used to convince the girl that their relationship was okay.

I think that the "wedding" was evidence. We don't have to agree on that, but if she's "marrying" a fourteen year old girl and fucking the fourteen year old girl I consider the issue entirely related.

You show me a group of Wiccans who abuse children using their religion to convince them that they are doing right, and you'll have a point. This is one woman. And there is no evidence or suggestiong that her religion was used for the 'brainwashing.'

Practiced religiously together, entered in to a pseudo-marriage, had sex. Hey, I admit the possibility that these things are ENTIRELY unrelated, but I don't believe that to be the case.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by sweetnpetite
You're good at twisting things.

You, too.

 

[TheEarl]

If the backdrops are categorically similar, then yes it may be relavent in both cases.

Case 1: Guy tells little girl that the fucking that she's been getting from all the men in town is alright because she's in a special religious category--an age of maturation and marriage to the community.

Case 2: Woman tells little girl that the fucking they've been doing is alright because she's in a special religious category--a marriage to the non-minor.

Big jump to make Case 2 a possibility Joe. Where did the lady tell the girl that their religion made it okay? The marriage part is not saying the religion makes it okay. They were having sex before the faux-marriage. Even if the marriage was used to convince the girl that it was okay, it means precisely nothing that it was a hand-binding. They were both pagan, what other marriage ceremony should be used? If a Christian paedophile mocked up a full-church wedding for her 'bride', then would than mean the paedophile was using Christianity to justify her actions? No - she would be using the rite itself.

The Earl

 

[TheEarl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The Face?

Religion may be the most important thing we've ever done as a society and is an essentially good thing.

Not sure I'd agree absolutely, but I can see where you're coming from. Why would that be censorable?

I think that the "wedding" was evidence. We don't have to agree on that, but if she's "marrying" a fourteen year old girl and fucking the fourteen year old girl I consider the issue entirely related.

But why the link to paganism? It was a hand-binding, because the child was pagan and it was a ceremony that she'd understand. If the child was Catholic, it'd have been a mocked-up church wedding. That wouldn't mean she was using Catholocism to seduce the child. She was using the rite of marriage, not the religion.

Practiced religiously together, entered in to a pseudo-marriage, had sex. Hey, I admit the possibility that these things are ENTIRELY unrelated, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Not necessarily in that order. From the article, I could easily read: Practised religiously together, had sex, entered into a pseudo-marriage, had more sex. The marriage and the sex I see as being related. The knowing the girl and the religious practising I can see being related. The practising and the sex, I don't yet. Maybe she used the religion to get to know the kid, but she didn't necessarily use it to get her into bed. You're making the leap without any evidence to back it up.

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by TheEarl
Big jump to make Case 2 a possibility Joe. Where did the lady tell the girl that their religion made it okay? The marriage part is not saying the religion makes it okay. They were having sex before the faux-marriage. Even if the marriage was used to convince the girl that it was okay, it means precisely nothing that it was a hand-binding. They were both pagan, what other marriage ceremony should be used? If a Christian paedophile mocked up a full-church wedding for her 'bride', then would than mean the paedophile was using Christianity to justify her actions? No - she would be using the rite itself.

The Earl

First, it doesn't say anything about hand-binding... for all we know they lit a bunch of candles and got naked in the moonlight and started practicing Gaelic.

Second, while we can discount the parents' opinion, what they have to say does shed some light on this. The girl doesn't think anything was wrong, apparently. The parents think she's been brainwashed into believing that this was fine--which tells me that they at least know that the girl has said that it wasn't wrong (otherwise, why would they say that?). The girl was already having emotional problems.

And, yes, if a Christian pedophile was fucking a child and mocked up a wedding (somehow) and married the child... the child doesn't believe they were doing anything wrong in the fucking... the two prayed together, as a habit. Yes. I'd say that religious abuse is a huge issue here and I would find it very hard to argue on the known facts that there was no religious misrepresentation or coerscion.

 

[TheEarl]

First, it doesn't say anything about hand-binding... for all we know they lit a bunch of candles and got naked in the moonlight and started practicing Gaelic.

Second, while we can discount the parents' opinion, what they have to say does shed some light on this. The girl doesn't think anything was wrong, apparently. The parents think she's been brainwashed into believing that this was fine--which tells me that they at least know that the girl has said that it wasn't wrong (otherwise, why would they say that?). The girl was already having emotional problems.

And, yes, if a Christian pedophile was fucking a child and mocked up a wedding (somehow) and married the child... the child doesn't believe they were doing anything wrong in the fucking... the two prayed together, as a habit. Yes. I'd say that religious abuse is a huge issue here and I would find it very hard to argue on the known facts that there was no religious misrepresentation or coerscion.

Gaelic? Novel idea, but if it's not a handbinding, then that's not a 'pagan ritual' of marriage, in which case it's inaccuracy on the part of the reporter. I'm interested in your use of the aside 'somehow' when you talked about mocking up a Christian marriage. Why would that be any more difficult than a pagan handbinding. All you'd need would be the words, two rings and a bible. Wouldn't be a true wedding because there would be no priest, but this wasn't a true handbinding because there was no Priest/Priestess.

The girl doesn't think anything was wrong because of the paedophile, who was probably very persuasive. Doesn't mean the religion had anything to do with it. Do you think she wouldn't have slept with the woman if they'd been different religions? If the woman was Jewish and the girl was Pagan, then would they not have slept together?

Goign back to an earlier point: What exactly did you mean by talking about 'Being honest about what it [/b](Paganism) can be used for' on the Wicca and Paganism thread? I understand you've got your hands full replying to this one, but I feel we raised some interesting points over there, which could do with more discussion.

The Earl

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

Re: <trying to resist><failing>

What would the subject of religions have to do with Unitarians?



<duck>
<chuckle>
<holding hands up in appeasement>

Alright, alright...maybe not a good time for light-heartedness...

I'm a UU, mister.



(I know...I tried to make a lighthearted joke earlier...sheeeeeeesh...)

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by TheEarl
Gaelic? Novel idea, but if it's not a handbinding, then that's not a 'pagan ritual' of marriage, in which case it's inaccuracy on the part of the reporter. I'm interested in your use of the aside 'somehow' when you talked about mocking up a Christian marriage. Why would that be any more difficult than a pagan handbinding. All you'd need would be the words, two rings and a bible. Wouldn't be a true wedding because there would be no priest, but this wasn't a true handbinding because there was no Priest/Priestess.

So... that would make it a "wedding" instead of a wedding, no?

The girl doesn't think anything was wrong because of the paedophile, who was probably very persuasive. Doesn't mean the religion had anything to do with it. Do you think she wouldn't have slept with the woman if they'd been different religions? If the woman was Jewish and the girl was Pagan, then would they not have slept together?

I think had the girl been Christian and the teacher been who she is, the chances of a pagan wedding coming into play would have been less... but that's beside the point. I think the girl doesn't think anything was wrong because of the supposed spiritual connection.

Goign back to an earlier point: What exactly did you mean by talking about 'Being honest about what it

(Paganism) can be used for' on the Wicca and Paganism thread? I understand you've got your hands full replying to this one, but I feel we raised some interesting points over there, which could do with more discussion.

The Earl

I said "being honest about what it [Religion] can be used for".

 

[TheEarl]

So... that would make it a "wedding" instead of a wedding, no?

Cute (and very amusing). However it detracts from the point - it is clear that the 'ritual' in question was a handbinding (because otherwise it would not have been a 'pagan ritual'). it is a 'wedding' in my eyes because it was not an official handbinding, no more than my Christian charade that I described earlier would have been official. But the implication of 'wedding' in the article appears to be that it wouldn't count because it was pagan, not because it was fake. This is reinforced by the use of the word 'ritual.' I would not be surprised if the reporter was ignorant of the entire concept of handbinding.

I think had the girl been Christian and the teacher been who she is, the chances of a pagan wedding coming into play would have been less... but that's beside the point. I think the girl doesn't think anything was wrong because of the supposed spiritual connection.

Not what I asked, and I think this misunderstanding is where our differences lie. IMHO If the girl had been Christian, then it wouldn't have been a pagan wedding. It would have been a Christian wedding, because the paedophile would have used any and all tactics at her disposal to convince the girl that this was okay. It had nothing to do with the religion, it was to do with convincing the girl.

She "wed" the girl. It seems that she used this commonality to abuse the girl. That isn't a judgement on the religion, but its being honest about what it can be used for and it disgusts me that so many people are choosing to ignore that around here.

Not wanting to take you out of context, here's the para in question. If you did mean religion in general, then I think you might want to be more careful about your words. 'A judgement on the religion... honest about what it cand be used for.' It suggests a link between the religion in question and the it later in the sentence.

The Earl

 

[BlackShanglan]

First, it doesn't say anything about hand-binding... for all we know they lit a bunch of candles and got naked in the moonlight and started practicing Gaelic.

I have, through heroic self-control, thus far managed to stay out of this thread. But Joe - I quite literally beg you. For the love of all Celtic scholars and admirers of the ancient culture, do not conflate our beautiful literature, stunning epics, remarkable history and incomparable language with what is now pleased to call itself "paganism." I beg you not to assist them in the destructive appropriation of a proud and noble culture.

Shanglan

 

[TheEarl]

I have, through heroic self-control, thus far managed to stay out of this thread. But Joe - I quite literally beg you. For the love of all Celtic scholars and admirers of the ancient culture, do not conflate our beautiful literature, stunning epics, remarkable history and incomparable language with what is now pleased to call itself "paganism." I beg you not to assist them in the destructive appropriation of a proud and noble culture.

Shanglan

Shanglan: Gaelic is not actually any part of paganism at all. And I would appreciate it if you didn't take a patronising tone to a religion which I'm very fond of. What has paganism done to arous such ire?

The Earl

 

[BlackShanglan]

Shanglan: Gaelic is not actually any part of paganism at all. And I would appreciate it if you didn't take a patronising tone to a religion which I'm very fond of. What has paganism done to arous such ire?

The Earl

Nothing, so long as it maintains the above stance. Unfortunately for me, I have met any number who think and claim to be in some way related to Celtic or Gaelic culture.

Shanglan

 

[TheEarl]

Nothing, so long as it maintains the above stance. Unfortunately for me, I have met any number who think and claim to be in some way related to Celtic or Gaelic culture.

Shanglan

Ah, plastic paddies. I'd heard they were a problem in USA. not the general view of the pagans I've met, read about or just read, I'm happy to say.

The Earl

 

[BlackShanglan]

Ah, plastic paddies. I'd heard they were a problem in USA. not the general view of the pagans I've met, read about or just read, I'm happy to say.

The Earl

That comes as an immense relief.

Shanglan

 

[yui]

This might not be important to anyone, but since no one has pointed it out, I feel inclined to… There is no reference to Wicca or Paganism in the article. Only the word "pagan" and by definition, "pagan" is:

1. "A person who does not acknowledge your God", or
2. "Not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam."

So, Shinto is pagan and Buddhism is pagan and all pantheistic practices are pagan, etc. If you think about it, there are a great whopping lot of religious practices out there that fall under the pagan label.

The article doesn't say the teacher was practicing with a coven or that anyone else was aware of what was happening (read this wasn't a "group activity"). It seems to me that the teacher likely tailored ritualize practices to suit her own nefarious purposes. And by definition, they were "pagan", but had nothing to do with the practice of Wicca or Paganism.

I think (and this is just my personal opinion so please don't flame me) that there is a great deal of inferring going on because a lot people are sensitive to the "pagan" label. To them, because of their lives, their experiences, pagan means Wicca/Paganism; but I do not think that this is the case for everyone.

When I hear pagan, I think druids. I'm stupid. Go figure.

I would like to add that I feel Joe's thread title was sensational, but I don't think it was an attack on Wicca/Paganism. I think, in his flippancy, his word choice was simply a mirror of the language in the article.

Or not…

Luck to all,

Yui

 

[TheEarl]

This might not be important to anyone, but since no one has pointed it out, I feel inclined to… There is no reference to Wicca or Paganism in the article. Only the word "pagan" and by definition, "pagan" is:

1. "A person who does not acknowledge your God", or
2. "Not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam."

So, Shinto is pagan and Buddhism is pagan and all pantheistic practices are pagan, etc. If you think about it, there are a great whopping lot of religious practices out there that fall under the pagan label.

The article doesn't say the teacher was practicing with a coven or that anyone else was aware of what was happening (read this wasn't a "group activity"). It seems to me that the teacher likely tailored ritualize practices to suit her own nefarious purposes. And by definition, they were "pagan", but had nothing to do with the practice of Wicca or Paganism.

I think (and this is just my personal opinion so please don't flame me) that there is a great deal of inferring going on because a lot people are sensitive to the "pagan" label. To them, because of their lives, their experiences, pagan means Wicca/Paganism; but I do not think that this is the case for everyone.

When I hear pagan, I think druids. I'm stupid. Go figure.

I would like to add that I feel Joe's thread title was sensational, but I don't think it was an attack on Wicca/Paganism. I think, in his flippancy, his word choice was simply a mirror of the language in the article.

Or not…

Luck to all,

Yui

Interesting point yui. Although I have to say that as paganism is the name of a religion and 'witchcraft' was mentioned, I would assume they were referring to Wicca. I think that label of paganism is very Judao-Christianic though. Is that a dictionary definition?

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person