Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The Face?

[TheEarl]

Interesting definition. I wonder how long it'll take to change, considering the other meaning of being a pagan.

In case you don't see the separate thread Joe, thank you very much for a lively debate. It's been fun.

The Earl

 

[BlackShanglan]

Interesting point yui. Although I have to say that as paganism is the name of a religion and 'witchcraft' was mentioned, I would assume they were referring to Wicca. I think that label of paganism is very Judao-Christianic though. Is that a dictionary definition?

The Earl

Yui, you always have interesting things to say. The world needs more people like that.

That's admittedly something that has given me qualms about paganism - precisely the breadth of definition that Yui points out. That is, people who define themselves as "pagans" seem by the common usage of the word more to be defining themselves by what they are not than what they are. On the whole I prefer "Wicca" as at least suggesting a movement that exists for its own purposes and not simply to oppose another. As Matthew Arnold points out, "the Protestantism of the Protestant religion and the Dissidence of Dissent" is not a terribly attractive creed; I want my sweetness and light.

Shanglan (in a fit of obscurity - apologies)

 

[yui]

Interesting point yui. Although I have to say that as paganism is the name of a religion and 'witchcraft' was mentioned, I would assume they were referring to Wicca. I think that label of paganism is very Judao-Christianic though. Is that a dictionary definition?

The Earl

Hi Earl,

I was lazy and used WordWeb for the definition in my post, but I looked up the definition in my dictionary, "The American Heritage College Dictionary" (Third Edition), and this is their definition:

"pagan – 1. One who is not Christian, Muslim or Jew; heathen. 2. One who has no religion. 3. A non-Christian. 4. A hedonist."

The definition is a bit different than Joe's, but I don't know his source.

I would like to tell you that I think you have made some very valid points and I admire your passion and conviction. I think you are very right in that people grossly misunderstand Paganism and "pagan" and I am not in any way defending those misconceptions.

Luck to you,

Yui

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Merriam-Webster

 

[yui]

Merriam-Webster

Noted.

 

[yui]

Yui, you always have interesting things to say. The world needs more people like that.

Shanglan (in a fit of obscurity - apologies)

Not so interesting, but you are kind to say so…

Luck to you,

Yui (and you are the master of obscurity )

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

The main thing about an article like this is it emphasizes so much irrelevance and it leaves you wanting to know more from sources they'd never touch. There are snippets, "parents say she was brainwashed", "she was depressed", and etc. To me it smells like the child could have been an outsider with Wiccan leanings (Goth a possibility or borderline Goth) who knew her teacher was a Wiccan and asked her for more in-depth and the teacher abused this to use her for sex. However, I'd never learn if this was so short of going to the school, hanging out in whatever tiny circle of friends she's managed to eke out of the teasing hordes, sitting against the wall and listening.

I don't need to know Joe's view on Wicca or Paganism and that whole debate. I've already got into an argument with him a while ago wherein he told me everything I needed to know about how he views it and also how he views history and debate in general. I reccomend to all those arguing with Joe to stop it. He doesn't apologize. He doesn't concede. He "wins" by any means neccessary. And besides, this time, he's actually got a point.

And Yui? You know the full story behind those roots? And why the origin of the root is a derogatory for peasant? It's quite interesting.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Interesting definition. I wonder how long it'll take to change, considering the other meaning of being a pagan.

In case you don't see the separate thread Joe, thank you very much for a lively debate. It's been fun.

The Earl

It's about the origins of the word and the polytheists (technically Hellenics) that it was used against and the bloodiness of that origin. This way it stands as a brother or sisterhood in marginality and also a statement that they have not died out after so much effort to slay them. Also, it is a statement of non-uniformity. Paganism covers everything from strict old-school pantheons and rituals, relaxed New Age psuedo-religionism, Wicca, multi-pantheonic belief structures, mix-and-match pantheons, and Gaiman/Pratchett Neo-Paganism (everything that is and can be believed exists as long as it is believed).

The conotation of hedonist I think bugs them very little and might even for some be a source of pride, a further reminder of the Old-school's hatred for them.

 

[Couture]

Burn her I say!

But first, she should be put on the wheel by priests and forced to reveal the names of her fellow witches. Then they should all be put on the wheel or be run or otherwise be made to confess that they are also deviant lesbians and in league with Satan.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Police say teacher 'wed' 14-year-old girl in pagan ritual

SOUTH HAVEN -- A teacher and a 14-year-old former female student whom she is accused of sexually assaulting participated in witchcraft together and even "wed" in a pagan ritual, police said.

There's the problem right there. Note the opening sentence. Remember diagraming sentences in middle school? (I hated that) We'll do something like that here. The opening sentence doesn't say: "A teacher was accused of sexually assaulting a former student" but instead says: "A teacher and a 14-year-old former female student...participated in witchcraft together and even..." The part about the sexual abuse is left as a secondary clause here. Whoever wrote this obviously isn't competent to report a traffic jam, nonetheless anything of natable interest. (I know, no one disagrees, but it's a perfect example of media, and a poor excuse for journalism)

Anyway, when I read the article, while they said the two were married and "practiced witchcraft together" (a quote from the police) it never says that the religion had anything to do with the girl's decision to have sex, or even that it was the teacher who introduced her to the religion, just that they practiced it together. I don't see any reason, other than the sensationalism already mentioned, for the religion to come into play. We can see these possibilites, but not certainties.

What this has that separates it from the incidents where Catholic Priests were being accused in simple: The Priest were immediate representatives of the church. This would be the same as a normal, everyday Catholic, no Priest but a simple Catholc woman who prays and goes to work. The article doesn't specify (though it seems intent of implying like hell) that the teacher was of any significance within the religion being practiced, only that she was a former teacher. That would seem more relevant in convincing any former student to trust you.

The part where it is similar is even simpler: No religion, no matter how many incidents you find, should be held responsible for the actions of those practicing unless the religion itself encourages the behavior. Nothing about either religion says abuse children; they were foul-ups and manipulations by human beings, not a religion or a sect of either religion (as the case seems to have been with the aforementioned group of Mormons -- referring them as a sect, of course) or by any diety mentioned in said religions (that I'm aware of anyway; and I'm at least fairly well-educated in each).

Something more important, I think, to point out. If you notice, in the article, it never mentions any witnesses of anything. No one saw them practising, or having sex, or being wed. The teacher hasn't commented or answered questions (and when the attorney hasn't even seen the police statements, obviously he can't give her advice on what to say, speaking would be foolish); the attorney hasn't commented. The principle was surprised; the parents thought the teacher was intending to help (common things heard in these cases, can we really not see the possibility that, now and then, the people we trust aren't terrible in private?). Not only is the entire article obvious hearsay, it seems the only real source is the girl. This girl who "was described as vulnerable and as having emotional problems." We all have known people with emotional problems haven't we? Don't they usually seek out the attentoin of others? Like maybe those 550 students with 550 reactions?

Just a thought there. And Joe himself brought it to mind. "Burn 'em... burn e'm all." The Salem witch trials were understood to be BS well after they took place, and the culprits (if I recall correctly, and it's been a shile since I studied it -- too lazy to do the research, too) mostly children, acting out in court for the sake of gaining attention? Sounds like we may have a genuine witch hunt on our hands here...

Mostly thinking out loud,
Q_C

 

[Couture]

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I think that the "wedding" was evidence. We don't have to agree on that, but if she's "marrying" a fourteen year old girl and fucking the fourteen year old girl I consider the issue entirely related.

Hey Joe, they can't get married. You know why? Because they are gay and there ain't no gay marriage. Didn't you hear what Bush said?

If there was gay marriage and she hadda taken this girl to the justice of the piece. Then he could have told her right off, "Honey, this girl is too danged young to marry. You ever heerd of jail bait?" Saved her a lot of trouble.

The point here being? The law will find out what's going on. She will have her day in court and so will the girl.

Shooting her in the face, burning her at the stake, or torturing her to reveal the names of her coven is not the way we do things in the country.

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The Face?

Hey Joe, they can't get married. You know why? Because they are gay and there ain't no gay marriage. Didn't you hear what Bush said?

If there was gay marriage and she hadda taken this girl to the justice of the piece. Then he could have told her right off, "Honey, this girl is too danged young to marry. You ever heerd of jail bait?" Saved her a lot of trouble.

The point here being? The law will find out what's going on. She will have her day in court and so will the girl.

Shooting her in the face, burning her at the stake, or torturing her to reveal the names of her coven is not the way we do things in the country.

Dem?

 

[Couture]

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Dem?

Dem right! Dem danged weeches!

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in The

Dem right! Dem danged weeches!

Democrat?

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . Shooting. . . burning her at the stake . . torturing . . . is not the way we do [sic] things in the country.

From 1890 to 2001.



NOW your statement is correct, Couture.

 

[Couture]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in

Democrat?

This the new way to hook up? The seventies had "What's your sign?" Now we have "Democrat?"

I drink. I smoke if someone's holdin. I have sex tapes. I write dirty filthy stories. I like to be on top. I have vibrators and other various sex toys. I like being on the bottom. I give a pretty wicked spanking.

I'm a democrat. Hell yeah and proud of it.

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan

This the new way to hook up? The seventies had "What's your sign?" Now we have "Democrat?"

I drink. I smoke if someone's holdin. I have sex tapes. I write dirty filthy stories. I like to be on top. I have vibrators and other various sex toys. I like being on the bottom. I give a pretty wicked spanking.

I'm a democrat. Hell yeah and proud of it.

Ooooo me too.

You have toys? You must be a lady.

 

[Couture]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This P

Ooooo me too.

You have toys? You must be a lady.

Or either I have toys FOR the ladies.

Shit, show me a person who doesn't like anal beads up their ass and I'll show you a peson who's never had anal beads up their ass.

 

[Couture]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Will Someone Please Shoot This Pagan in

Democrat?

But I'm not making fun. I used to not date people who smoked because their breath was bad when we kissed. Okay, I would still date them, but their fuckability index was taken down a few notches.

I don't even worry about smokers now. That stale taste only lasts a few seconds anyhow. My new 'no can do' is Republicans. A republican's fuckability index is zero in my book. I have no room for their boring self-centered asses. They are boring and terrible lays.

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

So you're a female?

I'm curious for my own purposes.

 

[Couture]

Stick your hands in my pants and find out.

 

[Kassiana]

I'm a UU, mister.

Hey, me too! /end irrelevant tangent

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

Hey, me too! /end irrelevant tangent

Yay!!!!

My goal is to eventually become a unitarian minister

 

[Couture]

UU's rock!

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

UU's rock!

Yes, yes we do.