Would you be ok with this?

[Randi Grail]

Being hetero isn't all that much easier if you're dating someone of another race than your own.

2004...AD!!!

Sad.

Where I am, dating another nationality seems to be enough to cause a wide range of reactions, from mild frowns to family feuds.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

Originally posted by lucky-E-leven
This leads me to a query for Joe: Is it always all about you?

Not always, but in regards to whether I would be ok with something I can only respond with how I would feel and react, what I would think and why... so, in that regard, yeah--the question was about "me" (as it is).

I can appreciate the letting them be happy thing, but there are things way, way more important than happiness--so I can't let myself get bogged down by that limitation. Its... complicated.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

... there are things way, way more important than happiness ...

Very profound statement, Joe. I appreciate it.

Perdita

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

Originally posted by perdita
Very profound statement, Joe. I appreciate it.

Perdita

Really? Hmm... hadn't intended it to be. But, I'm glad I could produce something constructive, finally. : )

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

I can appreciate the letting them be happy thing, but there are things way, way more important than happiness--so I can't let myself get bogged down by that limitation. Its... complicated.

I know I'm going to regret this, but - huh?

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

I know I'm going to regret this, but - huh?

I was hoping I wasn't the only one wondering about that statement.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

I can appreciate the letting them be happy thing, but there are things way, way more important than happiness--so I can't let myself get bogged down by that limitation. Its... complicated.

I'm going to give my take on this as I've posted above my appeciation of Joe's statement.

It's common to say we want to be happy or we want our kids or loved ones to be happy, but if you think seriously (profoundly) about it (Happiness) then you cannot merely wish for it the way one wishes for a sunny day or a good grade in school. Happiness has a price, we all know that. And it is not always the best goal to choose in some circumstances. Sometimes denying a happiness is necessary.

I honestly do not want to be more specific than this, but hope it at least explains why I found Joe's statement profound.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

I'm going to give my take on this as I've posted above my appeciation of Joe's statement.

It's common to say we want to be happy or we want our kids or loved ones to be happy, but if you think seriously (profoundly) about it (Happiness) then you cannot merely wish for it the way one wishes for a sunny day or a good grade in school. Happiness has a price, we all know that. And it is not always the best goal to choose in some circumstances. Sometimes denying a happiness is necessary.

I honestly do not want to be more specific than this, but hope it at least explains why I found Joe's statement profound.

I think I see what you meant now.

I agree Happiness does have a price. Someone cannot be happy all the time. Life has it's up's and downs for all people. Sometimes the hope of happiness later on is what keeps us going when times are other than we would wish.

But when I say "I want my children to be happy", what I really mean is for my children to lead a fulfilling rewarding life, where they are comefortable with themselves and satisfied with there situations.

Do I expect my children to go around with big grins on their faces all the time? No. But I do hope that at the end of their road (hopefully a very long time from now), they will look back and say "It was a good ride."

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

I'm going to give my take on this as I've posted above my appeciation of Joe's statement.

It's common to say we want to be happy or we want our kids or loved ones to be happy, but if you think seriously (profoundly) about it (Happiness) then you cannot merely wish for it the way one wishes for a sunny day or a good grade in school. Happiness has a price, we all know that. And it is not always the best goal to choose in some circumstances. Sometimes denying a happiness is necessary.

I honestly do not want to be more specific than this, but hope it at least explains why I found Joe's statement profound.

Hear hear.

Saying, "I just want to be happy," or, "All I want is for them to be happy," is a very flippant and naive way of looking at the world.

Yes, I want to be the happiest I possibly can be, that same wish goes for my children, but it is a tough balancing act. There are many sacrifices to be made along the way, many compromises to reach and many, many prices to pay.

Yes, I am a happy person, most of the time. But, at what price? Like Perdita, I won't go any deeper than that, but I completely get what both she and Joe were saying.

I think one of the most important things to strive for is to be completely comfortable with who you are, and love and respect that person. Admit to yourself that you have failings, but also acknowledge the positives.

All of the above appears to be slightly off the original topic, but it isn't, not really.

Lou

 

[Guest]

Just want to add: Given the thread topic, obviously a parent who cannot accept or shows great ambivalence in appreciating a gay child (despite the love involved), will make that child's 'happiness' difficult. On the other hand, the struggle that ensues, if mutual, may bring about better understanding and intimacy between parent and child. If it doesn't, someone's happiness will be killed.

Give and take. Life. Love. Happiness. Pain. All connected.

Perdita

 

[destinie21]

I'd be fine with the actual homosexuality thing but worried that I'd somehow influenced the child unfairly. That would be my issue.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Would you be ok with this?

Hear hear.

Saying, "I just want to be happy," or, "All I want is for them to be happy," is a very flippant and naive way of looking at the world.

Yes, I want to be the happiest I possibly can be, that same wish goes for my children, but it is a tough balancing act. There are many sacrifices to be made along the way, many compromises to reach and many, many prices to pay.

Yes, I am a happy person, most of the time. But, at what price? Like Perdita, I won't go any deeper than that, but I completely get what both she and Joe were saying.

I think one of the most important things to strive for is to be completely comfortable with who you are, and love and respect that person. Admit to yourself that you have failings, but also acknowledge the positives.

All of the above appears to be slightly off the original topic, but it isn't, not really.

Lou

Very well said Lou.

This is what I was trying to say, you just said it much better than I.

And I don't think it's off topic at all, happiness is part of acceptance. Topics are just a starting point any way, right?

"I rarely go where I intended, but often end up where I needed to be." (Misquoted from some novel, but I don't remember which one.)

 

[poohlive]

I find that statement oddly out of place... especially on this thread. I mean, the point of this thread is to talk about being sympathetic and understanding, even to your own family, and your posts ends with you making some rash stereotypical statement about how guys beat their girlfriends and wives?


Well, I guess that proves we have a longer way to go than I realized.

I think, there would be as much abuse, physically and mentally in a straight relationship as much as a homosexual one. Consider the elements, most of your here would accept and love your children, no matter what... a few would be shocked, maybe a little dazzled, but nothing more. Most common answer... you want them to be happy.
What does that mean though? That means, you expected your kid to grow up straight. There's still this mentality that straight is right, and somehow being gay is wrong... even if you don't outright say it, and despite that you accept it. It kind of falls along those lines when you get into this big fight with your parent, and then... afterwards, you ask them if they're mad. They just give you a look, sigh, and then say, "No, just dissappointed."

What does that do to a kid, who knows by age 12, or 7 or even younger (some kids know right off). They're living a lie before they even know what that lie is, and why they have to live it. That could easily lead to mental problems, which could turn up inside abuse inside their relationships later on in life.

Jeffrey Dahmer was Gay, and he couldn't tell anybody. He kept this a secret from everyone, his family, his friends, everyone. One day in high school, he took a kid home, got drunk, and just kissed him. You know, innocent high school kid stuff. The guy was pissed though, and started getting yelling at Dahmer... and Dahmer got really scared, so he did the only thing he thought to do. He killed the guy.

Of course, there are other reasons, a serial killer isn't born overnight, but it does make you think... what would have happened if he grew up in a loving caring environment in an age where he would have been accepted.

It's a complicated issue though. I doubt there's any real answer. My kid? I'd want him to have the best in life, better than I had it. So, he should grow up knowing I always love him. I think, that's all I can do... the rest is up to him.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Sorry, I've been away all day.

What I was talking about (and I think 'Dita got it, for the most part), is that when I think of what is the most important thing (concept, goal, idea, whatever)... mere happiness really isn't it.

I'm thinking somewhat more practically, and I don't want to limit myself or my child by using the "is the kid happy" rule of thumb. A kid can be like a dog, happiness is easy to cause--spoil a child just right and it'll be happy, but it isn't necessarily the best way to go.

I want my child to have a lot of very practical things, and there are skills and knowledges it has to have to make those a more certain reality:

While smoking makes me happy (and I can assume it might make the child happy), I want to raise my child in such a way that he becomes a smoker--smoking is a socially limiting habit, its a little disgusting, and costs money (beyond the whole addiction and possible cancer thing). His happiness, in this regard, has absolutely no place in my decision to affect his life with respect to smoking as a choice.

Drugs? No. School? Yes. Sports? Yes, as I see that opening up more social and academic opportunities for him (as well as maintaining good personal fitness) than not. Little things like this are exactly what I consider when thinking about how to interact with my child and what decisions I want to make.

I want them to be financially successful, not have to stress about bills and get stuck in a job they hate. I want them to be socially graceful, because the number of doors that open up is worth it. I want them to be psychology peaceful, even if it means shielding them from certain unpleasant things in the world. I want them to be brilliant, physically fit, and have all the opportunities available for them to choose what they want.

"Happiness" is a nice goal, but I'd rather they were "prepared".

Considering (back to topic) the possibility of a gay son? Like I said, I would probably raise him in such a way that he wouldn't go the "delightfully effeminant Blonde guy on Queer Eye for a Straight Guy" route, opting instead for a manner such that one wouldn't think he were gay. That wouldn't be out of fear or narrow-mindedness or bigotry, but because I feel many opportunities will be closed to him if he were like Kressley.

Of course, I put that with lots of things... what if my kid preferred video games to sports? I'd still probably encourage him onto the high school football team. What if my kid liked peircings? Not in my home. He'll learn to dress well, speak well, and be a success--so he doesn't have to ever look back and see his failures.

That's what I want.

(wow, that was long)

 

[poohlive]

I posted before I saw the rest of the thread. I want to add a little to happiness.
I think, part of what Joe was saying, (and if it's not your line of thought, Joe, then I'll go off on my own) is that more often than not, happiness can be destructive.

Ok, your child is gay.
(as long as your happy)
Your child is a porn star
(as long as your happy)
Your child drinks all the time
(as long as your happy)
Your child steals to earn a living
(as long as your happy)
Your child likes to cut himself
(as long as your happy)
Your child just killed a couple of tourists from Florida
(as long as your happy... get the shovel)

This is an extreme example, but the point still remains. You want to protect your child, as well as making them happy. You want them to grow up, able to fend for themselves.

The old saying, give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...
(he'll be happy, and thank you... but starve the next day)

Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime
(he won't be happy the few days it takes you to show him how to set the line, the best places to fish, different kinds of bait, and whatnot, but after it's all said and done, and he's catching fish on his own, he'll be happy... even more so, cause he has confidence, a skill, and food)

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by poohlive
I posted before I saw the rest of the thread. I want to add a little to happiness.
I think, part of what Joe was saying, (and if it's not your line of thought, Joe, then I'll go off on my own) is that more often than not, happiness can be destructive.

Ok, your child is gay.
(as long as your happy)
Your child is a porn star
(as long as your happy)
Your child drinks all the time
(as long as your happy)
Your child steals to earn a living
(as long as your happy)
Your child likes to cut himself
(as long as your happy)
Your child just killed a couple of tourists from Florida
(as long as your happy... get the shovel)

This is an extreme example, but the point still remains. You want to protect your child, as well as making them happy. You want them to grow up, able to fend for themselves.

The old saying, give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...
(he'll be happy, and thank you... but starve the next day)

Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime
(he won't be happy the few days it takes you to show him how to set the line, the best places to fish, different kinds of bait, and whatnot, but after it's all said and done, and he's catching fish on his own, he'll be happy... even more so, cause he has confidence, a skill, and food)

Bingo... and on the money.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

I find that statement oddly out of place... especially on this thread. I mean, the point of this thread is to talk about being sympathetic and understanding, even to your own family, and your posts ends with you making some rash stereotypical statement about how guys beat their girlfriends and wives?


Well, I guess that proves we have a longer way to go than I realized.

I think, there would be as much abuse, physically and mentally in a straight relationship as much as a homosexual one. Consider the elements, most of your here would accept and love your children, no matter what... a few would be shocked, maybe a little dazzled, but nothing more. Most common answer... you want them to be happy.
What does that mean though? That means, you expected your kid to grow up straight. There's still this mentality that straight is right, and somehow being gay is wrong... even if you don't outright say it, and despite that you accept it. It kind of falls along those lines when you get into this big fight with your parent, and then... afterwards, you ask them if they're mad. They just give you a look, sigh, and then say, "No, just dissappointed."

What does that do to a kid, who knows by age 12, or 7 or even younger (some kids know right off). They're living a lie before they even know what that lie is, and why they have to live it. That could easily lead to mental problems, which could turn up inside abuse inside their relationships later on in life.

Jeffrey Dahmer was Gay, and he couldn't tell anybody. He kept this a secret from everyone, his family, his friends, everyone. One day in high school, he took a kid home, got drunk, and just kissed him. You know, innocent high school kid stuff. The guy was pissed though, and started getting yelling at Dahmer... and Dahmer got really scared, so he did the only thing he thought to do. He killed the guy.

Of course, there are other reasons, a serial killer isn't born overnight, but it does make you think... what would have happened if he grew up in a loving caring environment in an age where he would have been accepted.

It's a complicated issue though. I doubt there's any real answer. My kid? I'd want him to have the best in life, better than I had it. So, he should grow up knowing I always love him. I think, that's all I can do... the rest is up to him.

It may be a rash stereotypical statement, but it was only inteneded to reflect my feelings on the subject. It is how I feel. Do I have any data to back up my views? No, just my observations from reading the news everyday. Almost everyday in the news you will see some case of a woman being beated by her husband/boyfriend, amny times severly, sometimes to death. Does this mean it only happens to women (by men)? No. But to my observations men beating women seems much more common there for I worry about it more.

Also, the male of the human species is larger and stronger, a generalization, but it is mostly true. So naturally I would worry about my daughter getting beaten by a larger boyfriend more than I would by a woman closer to her own size. Maybe this is a rational fear, maybe it's not. Often times the things we worry about are more imagined than real, but we worry about them all the same. But it's only my opinion, what I think, which is what this thread is all about.

And just because I would expect my daughter to be straight, it does not mean in any way that I would be dissapointed in her if she were a lesbian. I would never say, "I understand but I am disapointed." I would be disappointed if she made a foolish decision like using drugs, not about something that is a part of her.

The only reason I might expect it (her being straight), is because it's much more common, and to be honest I really don't expect it either way, nor do I really care, as long as it's what she wants.

 

[minsue]

I'd be fine with the actual homosexuality thing but worried that I'd somehow influenced the child unfairly. That would be my issue.

That concept has always bothered me. How is it that being raised by homosexual parents is, or can be, considered an unfair or undue influence on a child's sexuality when being raised by heterosexual parents is not? I know I'm dense about many things and this could just be one of them, but I simply do not get it.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

The old saying, give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...
(he'll be happy, and thank you... but starve the next day)

Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime
(he won't be happy the few days it takes you to show him how to set the line, the best places to fish, different kinds of bait, and whatnot, but after it's all said and done, and he's catching fish on his own, he'll be happy... even more so, cause he has confidence, a skill, and food)

Paraphrasing Scott Adams: "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll buy a funny hat. If you talk about fish to a starving man, you're a consultant."



On happiness and children. I think the child having a traumatic middle school and high school existence is a good mark of courage. All the people I know in the decent schools, or who create the most profound works always seem to have the most bitter rememberances about their young school days. It seems being unhappy as a youth strengthens you for what's ahead (assuming you don't take a razor to yout wrists or snap and start killing people).

As far as them being happy later on, I think its all about them dealing with less trauma than is neccesary. They'll get enough shit from everyone else in the world, why do they need irrational shit from their parents. I'd like to eventually be the all-encompassing safe zone where the kid could come back to when everything's gone to Hell. I'd like my home to always be the stereo playing angst songs, the padded wall to scream and sob against, and the warm dinner to bring on catharsis in my eventual children's lives.

Cause considering that I'll be the one raising them, they'll be needing all three a lot.

 

[Weird Harold]

What I was talking about (and I think 'Dita got it, for the most part), is that when I think of what is the most important thing (concept, goal, idea, whatever)... mere happiness really isn't it.

I'm thinking somewhat more practically, and I don't want to limit myself or my child by using the "is the kid happy" rule of thumb. A kid can be like a dog, happiness is easy to cause--spoil a child just right and it'll be happy, but it isn't necessarily the best way to go.

Joe, I do understand what you're saying, but I think you're playing semantics with what and others have said about accepting our children's choices.

I no more meant "laughing and giggling all the time" than the Founding Fathers did when they wrote "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

I could have written along winded and verbose explanation of all the conditions and qualifications that would determine the exact degree and nature of my acceptance of whatever sexual relationships my children might choose -- either permanent or long-term.

But I'm a lazy person and even typing "as long as she's pursuing her own version of happiness" or "as long as it doesn't make her un-happy or put her in danger" is just too much effort when MOST people understand the common expression, "as long as they're happy" implies all of the long and short-term qualifiers.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Weird Harold
Joe, I do understand what you're saying, but I think you're playing semantics with what and others have said about accepting our children's choices.

I no more meant "laughing and giggling all the time" than the Founding Fathers did when they wrote "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

I could have written along winded and verbose explanation of all the conditions and qualifications that would determine the exact degree and nature of my acceptance of whatever sexual relationships my children might choose -- either permanent or long-term.

But I'm a lazy person and even typing "as long as she's pursuing her own version of happiness" or "as long as it doesn't make her un-happy or put her in danger" is just too much effort when MOST people understand the common expression, "as long as they're happy" implies all of the long and short-term qualifiers.

Which is nice.

I choose to explain myself more thoroughly.

To each, I suppose, his own.

 

[poohlive]

Well, if that's just your opinion, I suppose there's no way to change it. I'm not trying to, actually.
Although, I know, I myself don't really look at the news and take anything seriously anymore. The news, American news in particular, has taken on an "if it bleeds, it leads," mentality. So, of course you see all of the beatings and abuse. Why would the news show millions of couples getting along fine when one couple tried to kill each other last night?
Statistics show violence has decreased significanlty in the last thirty years, and yet news has exploited violence more and more.

And, if you want to talk statistics and observations... lots of examples of women involved in abusive relationships with men often had abusive childhoods, and issues with their parents. Neglect, abuse... as a child, if that's what they get from their parents, that's what they consider love, and growing up, they try to find it in a relationship.

Now, I'm not going to be stereotypical and say you beat your child, or neglect them, or abuse them in any way. It's just from all the statistics and observations and whatnot. Nothing personal.

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

One of the only things that would give me pause about my daughters being lesbian is how society would treat them. I almost hope that they would hold off on a public comming out until they were out of highschool. Not because I care what the other people in town think but because kids of that age can be so cruel.

I think that college life is more accepting other peoples beliefs/races/orientations/etc. but that may only be perception. There is certianly enough hate in the world to go around and no one area or group has a monopoly on it.

Try living in Chicago for 19 years and then moving to BuFu Iowa...guys everywhere in the college try to turn you back in or force you into sex. I think people are all too quiet and reserved about the treatment they really get over their sexual orientation.

 

[she_is_my_addiction]

I'd be fine with the actual homosexuality thing but worried that I'd somehow influenced the child unfairly. That would be my issue.

I read in my Psych book something along the lines of under 13% of offspring with one or more gay parents are influenced by the lifestyle....or something like that.

Whether I actually believe that statistic is another box of donuts altogether.