a companion to 30 in 30

[unpredictablebijou]

Insightful poem today. It's always a good one if it makes me want to read it again.


As well, I wanted to say that I was happy to see Anna's words again. Missed reading your stuff.

And, Tzara's offering today was pretty darn smooth.

Smooth is an excellent adjective. Very apt.

Love, you've been doing lovely things yourself. I try to emulate your delicacy with scenes but usually I feel a little bash-y by comparison. No one can make turtles mean so much.

bijou

 

[Sara Crewe]

Smooth is an excellent adjective. Very apt.

Love, you've been doing lovely things yourself. I try to emulate your delicacy with scenes but usually I feel a little bash-y by comparison. No one can make turtles mean so much.

bijou

I have stepped away from the turtles and I am currently finishing up a wonderful twelve step program.

Thanks for the compliment. Can't imagine why you are emulating me 'Ms. Oh so not bash-y in the least" one.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Bash bash.

Okay, so here's a question for the group.

I'm looking through a thread recently and see a reference (and I dunno, it seemed a little...slanted...) to something called a "rhyme and meter crew" to which this person didn't want to be subjected because they would pick his/her stuff apart with a "fine-toothed comb" and he/she felt that this would interfere with hizzer style in some important way.

Not that I'm arguing with that, whatever it is, but what I want to know is this: Where is the Rhyme and Meter Crew? Are they like a group dressed as pirates, raiding the various threads and boards like coastal towns, demanding booty? "Avast, yer iambic pentameter! Hand it over, ye lubbers, and aye, this wench with the ample quatrains'll be comin' along..."

Or are they more like a square-jawed ivy league fraternity rowing team, all perfect hair (hence the comb thing, I'm thinking) and firm handshakes and glad-handing for business contacts. "Skip, my man, good to see ya. Lemme introduce Tad Smith-Smythe-Smith. He's our go-to guy for the Alexandrians. Sayyy, pulled off a deal for some elegaics the other day that put us over the top on occasional poetry..."

Cause like, for one thing, if they're pirates, I wanna join.

But mostly, why haven't I seen them in here? What are they up to? Are they watching us right now? Do they have special powers? How many of them are there? Are they like the Illuminati? Do they know when sometimes late at night I indulge in a few tercets, or shove my face in a villanelle when no one's looking, or drink directly out of the epithalamion? Will they let me be in their club? Does the initiation involve writing sapphics?

This is a newbie thing, isn't it? You people are hiding something from me. I've got an AV and a guru and there's already people who dislike me; I must have earned a stripe of some kind by now. Clue me in.

bijou

 

[4degrees]

i heard they're 1/3 pirates, 1/3 neatly combed and the last third made up of undecided disorderly types.

don't worry, i've been here 3 years and i've never heard of them.
then again, i'm told i'm not the most social creature, either.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Clue me in.

bijou

Your application for The Oval will arrive in the mail. Membership in the R&M:C is incumbent on The Oval.

 

[Sara Crewe]

Bash bash.

Okay, so here's a question for the group.

I'm looking through a thread recently and see a reference (and I dunno, it seemed a little...slanted...) to something called a "rhyme and meter crew" to which this person didn't want to be subjected because they would pick his/her stuff apart with a "fine-toothed comb" and he/she felt that this would interfere with hizzer style in some important way.

Not that I'm arguing with that, whatever it is, but what I want to know is this: Where is the Rhyme and Meter Crew? Are they like a group dressed as pirates, raiding the various threads and boards like coastal towns, demanding booty? "Avast, yer iambic pentameter! Hand it over, ye lubbers, and aye, this wench with the ample quatrains'll be comin' along..."

Or are they more like a square-jawed ivy league fraternity rowing team, all perfect hair (hence the comb thing, I'm thinking) and firm handshakes and glad-handing for business contacts. "Skip, my man, good to see ya. Lemme introduce Tad Smith-Smythe-Smith. He's our go-to guy for the Alexandrians. Sayyy, pulled off a deal for some elegaics the other day that put us over the top on occasional poetry..."

Cause like, for one thing, if they're pirates, I wanna join.

But mostly, why haven't I seen them in here? What are they up to? Are they watching us right now? Do they have special powers? How many of them are there? Are they like the Illuminati? Do they know when sometimes late at night I indulge in a few tercets, or shove my face in a villanelle when no one's looking, or drink directly out of the epithalamion? Will they let me be in their club? Does the initiation involve writing sapphics?

This is a newbie thing, isn't it? You people are hiding something from me. I've got an AV and a guru and there's already people who dislike me; I must have earned a stripe of some kind by now. Clue me in.

bijou

For years, every now and then people post a poem here and ask for feedback and criticism. In the past, I and other people, have offered feedback and critique but often when this feedback encompasses more than, "Hey good job, you write poetry better than Jesus Christ himself, "people tend to jump all over the reviewer. They get called grammar nazis, anal retentive dream killers, poetry murderers, people who don't know that poetry comes from the soul so it's infallible and never needs editing etc...


So, I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I never offer my opinion on stuff unless I am asked directly for it or unless someone acts like an asshole and deserves and good bitch slapping for no other reason than that. I don't give a shit if someone calls me names or disagrees with my opinion but it takes time to look a poem over carefully and give specific and honest reader feedback. I am not wasting that time on someone who won't appreciate it or even worse will be upset by it.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

For years, every now and then people post a poem here and ask for feedback and criticism. In the past, I and other people, have offered feedback and critique but often when this feedback encompasses more than, "Hey good job, you write poetry better than Jesus Christ himself, "people tend to jump all over the reviewer. They get called grammar nazis, anal retentive dream killers, poetry murderers, people who don't know that poetry comes from the soul so it's infallible and never needs editing etc...


So, I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I never offer my opinion on stuff unless I am asked directly for it or unless someone acts like an asshole and deserves and good bitch slapping for no other reason than that. I don't give a shit if someone calls me names or disagrees with my opinion but it takes time to look a poem over carefully and give specific and honest reader feedback. I am not wasting that time on someone who won't appreciate it or even worse will be upset by it.

The Crew paid you to say that, didn't they?

bijou

 

[Sara Crewe]

The Crew paid you to say that, didn't they?

bijou

Only Crew I ever listen to or accept compensation from is with one with an 'e' on the end. I just smile and nod to the rest of them. Unless they have cheesecake...then I am a bit of a grammar floozy.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Only Crew I ever listen to or accept compensation from is with one with an 'e' on the end. I just smile and nod to the rest of them. Unless they have cheesecake...then I am a bit of a grammar floozy.

What flavor? I'm comin' over.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Your application for The Oval will arrive in the mail. Membership in the R&M:C is incumbent on The Oval.

oooo! I can hardly wait.
Well, the soul was sold off long ago, but anything else I need to sell is up for grabs. Just lemme know.

 

[Sara Crewe]

What flavor? I'm comin' over.

I'm a floozy. I'll take any flavour or eat it just plain. Okay, I'll turn the outside light on...fourth house on the road to your right.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Just to pretend to be on topic.

I may fall out as early as today. I got nothin. We'll see.

4, your pieces are so often hallucinatory in a good way. They're like having sex and looking at Dali paintings simultaneously.

Sara, you kicked my ASS today.

And Tzara:

I'm back.

bijou

 

[Tathagata]

I'm a floozy. I'll take any flavour or eat it just plain. Okay, I'll turn the outside light on...fourth house on the road to your right.

~ making a note: cheesecake = floozy ~
muhuhuhhahahaha

 

[unpredictablebijou]

~ making a note: cheesecake = floozy ~
muhuhuhhahahaha

You're a cad. I always suspected it.

 

[Tathagata]

You're a cad. I always suspected it.

all you had to do was ask

Myrna Loy?
how friggin eclectic can you get?

 

[Tathagata]

So, I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I never offer my opinion on stuff unless I am asked directly for it or unless someone acts like an asshole and deserves and good bitch slapping for no other reason than that. I don't give a shit if someone calls me names or disagrees with my opinion but it takes time to look a poem over carefully and give specific and honest reader feedback. I am not wasting that time on someone who won't appreciate it or even worse will be upset by it.

There are enough people here who will point out grammar and enjambment and line breaks and blah blah blah ad infinitum.
They are common mistakes, easy to spot, and for the most part have very little to do with what the poem is trying to say.
If asked for feedback and all you get back is changing a comma and putting in a hyphen ,that doesn't tell me what you think.
It may affect the way the poem is perceived, I agree, but has little to do with what is being conveyed.
Just my feeling on the matter

So, if asked, I'll focus on word choices, images, what is trying to be said etc.

I usually do this via PM and have a small circle of people whose opinion I can trust, who will be honest with me, and i can be honest with them.
It works for me and may be a better way for some people who want feedback to go about it.
Rather than just throw it out there and say " tell me what you think", especially if you aren't sure you can handle the possibility of being told " It's all wrong"



and I really wish you'd offer to bitch slap me once in a while

 

[4degrees]

dali? really? damn...who woulda thunk it.
thats the best stroke i've had in a bit.

 

[Sara Crewe]

There are enough people here who will point out grammar and enjambment and line breaks and blah blah blah ad infinitum.
They are common mistakes, easy to spot, and for the most part have very little to do with what the poem is trying to say.
If asked for feedback and all you get back is changing a comma and putting in a hyphen ,that doesn't tell me what you think.
It may affect the way the poem is perceived, I agree, but has little to do with what is being conveyed.
Just my feeling on the matter

So, if asked, I'll focus on word choices, images, what is trying to be said etc.

I usually do this via PM and have a small circle of people whose opinion I can trust, who will be honest with me, and i can be honest with them.
It works for me and may be a better way for some people who want feedback to go about it.
Rather than just throw it out there and say " tell me what you think", especially if you aren't sure you can handle the possibility of being told " It's all wrong"



and I really wish you'd offer to bitch slap me once in a while

I thought you were supposed to have an oval of people that you trust to look at work.


I will bitch slap you if you touch my cheesecake.

 

[Tathagata]

I thought you were supposed to have an oval of people that you trust to look at work.


I will bitch slap you if you touch my cheesecake.

oval the river and through the woods?

yes an oval
egg-zactly



I've never heard you call it that before....but ok

 

[Angeline]

oval the river and through the woods?

yes an oval
egg-zactly



I've never heard you call it that before....but ok

It was an oval, yes. I always thought a triangle--at least that made some sense to me--but maybe you can fit more of a clique in an oval.

Oval there.
I'm oval you.
Somewhere oval the rainbow?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I thought you were supposed to have an oval of people that you trust to look at work.

The Oval is not about trust! It's about being Badasss. With three Ss.

 

[Sara Crewe]

The Oval is not about trust! It's about being Badasss. With three Ss.

Crap! I always forget that third s. I am such a square.

 

[wildsweetone]

There are enough people here who will point out grammar and enjambment and line breaks and blah blah blah ad infinitum.
They are common mistakes, easy to spot, and for the most part have very little to do with what the poem is trying to say.
If asked for feedback and all you get back is changing a comma and putting in a hyphen ,that doesn't tell me what you think.
It may affect the way the poem is perceived, I agree, but has little to do with what is being conveyed.
Just my feeling on the matter

So, if asked, I'll focus on word choices, images, what is trying to be said etc.

I usually do this via PM and have a small circle of people whose opinion I can trust, who will be honest with me, and i can be honest with them.
It works for me and may be a better way for some people who want feedback to go about it.
Rather than just throw it out there and say " tell me what you think", especially if you aren't sure you can handle the possibility of being told " It's all wrong"



and I really wish you'd offer to bitch slap me once in a while

you've given me food for thought, Tath (not that you meant to). i think for me, critiquing is coming in stages. i'm getting the hang of the forms and technicalities of poems. my next step will be (and it's begun now), the 'think' that you mention. the why, the how, the what that is being said. but i can't say it out loud with confidence, yet.

it's just a measure of the experience of the poet as a writer and reader, i think.



[/thinking out loud]

 

[unpredictablebijou]

So here's the meditation. At any given moment, in a poem, there is a writer trying to express something he or she thinks important; an idea, a situation, an image, a conclusion. And there is a reader, interpreting that message from his or her own frame of reference, perhaps drawing completely different images, ideas or conclusions. Worthwhile, meaningful, perhaps even more powerful conclusions, but different from the intent of the writer.

I've found that I can't personally even land on a policy of which is more important to me: simply saying what I want to say in a way that works for me, or communicating accurately to an audience. I think it varies from piece to piece. But that's really what designates the sort of critique one asks for - to say to an audience, this was my intent, this is what I meant to say here, so did I manage to do that?

There is power in speaking one's own truth in one's own particular way and allowing the audience to make whatever they want out of it. I am assuming that one has gone to the trouble to learn one's craft, that is, techniques like alliteration and rhythm that assist with meaning and tone. I think Dylan Thomas may have leaned toward that policy, and certainly the Dadaists tended to work that way. By contrast, Eliot footnoted the hell out of his obscure references so that we would be sure to know exactly what he was talking about.

So consider your favorite "famous poets." (snort - is that an oxymoron?) What policy do you think they held, and if they really wanted to make sure that we as future readers clearly understood their intent, rather than interpreting, perhaps wrongly, their meaning, then how did they make sure that happened?

There's this aspect too, and it's my favorite. I like not imposing any sort of intent on my audience besides the one that I have tried to put inherently in the poem, and then finding that a reader has gotten something entirely new out of a piece, something i hadn't seen at all, but something I recognize as another possible meaning once it's pointed out to me. Is it inaccuracy then? Have I failed, or succeeded, or neither? If I'm good at my craft, perhaps the angels help me sometimes, to find a word that works for me and then contains layers for a reader, some meaning that I never thought about.

hm. There's food for thought, and then there's lunch. I'm off after the latter.

bijou

 

[Tathagata]

So here's the meditation. At any given moment, in a poem, there is a writer trying to express something he or she thinks important; an idea, a situation, an image, a conclusion. And there is a reader, interpreting that message from his or her own frame of reference, perhaps drawing completely different images, ideas or conclusions. Worthwhile, meaningful, perhaps even more powerful conclusions, but different from the intent of the writer.

I used to find all kinds of " Zen" references in David Byrnes lyrics that I'm sure he didn't put there.
i think lots of writers are deliberately...vague isn't the right word, but are un-specific ( is that a word?) enough to allow various interpretations

There is power in speaking one's own truth in one's own particular way and allowing the audience to make whatever they want out of it. I am assuming that one has gone to the trouble to learn one's craft, that is, techniques like alliteration and rhythm that assist with meaning and tone. I think Dylan Thomas may have leaned toward that policy, and certainly the Dadaists tended to work that way. By contrast, Eliot footnoted the hell out of his obscure references so that we would be sure to know exactly what he was talking about.

I've said this before, ad nauseam, so please pardon me if I try and explain it again.

if something is written that captures the spirit of, or is written from, the point of absolute truth, then it cannot help but strike a chord inside the reader.
Of course much depends on the language as to how well it's understood.
But so many times here I've read something and, although I may not understand exactly the words or phrase or image, there is something there that simply thumps my chest.
Ange wrote something the other day about " rivers flowing past empty banks"
it was a line in a poem about the holocaust, now on it's own that line might not mean much, but in that context i saw and felt it with such force, as if all the sadness and emptiness in the world was there on those empty banks.


In todays world with Google there is very little chance of anyone writing anything " obscure" if the reader is curious enough to look up any reference he/she doesn't understand.

There's this aspect too, and it's my favorite. I like not imposing any sort of intent on my audience besides the one that I have tried to put inherently in the poem, and then finding that a reader has gotten something entirely new out of a piece, something i hadn't seen at all, but something I recognize as another possible meaning once it's pointed out to me. Is it inaccuracy then? Have I failed, or succeeded, or neither? If I'm good at my craft, perhaps the angels help me sometimes, to find a word that works for me and then contains layers for a reader, some meaning that I never thought about.

hm. There's food for thought, and then there's lunch. I'm off after the latter.

bijou

I think no matter what you write, how clear you are, how clever you are, no matter what tricks you use, the reader will always only be able to bring to it, and ultimately get from it, only what exists in their own frame of reference.



apparently the key word for today is reference