A formal point (about PDC)

[CharleyH]

Senna Jawa is right on this issue. The real value in critique lies in the novel perspective of the reader: when the author poses questions they are imparting, even casually, some of their own perspective upon the reader and tainting that novelty.

Senna is wrong on this issue, I believe. Yes, there is a value to the reader, but only if you as a communicator or poet can 'speak' to them. If 'you' are posting a poem on the PDC, you are asking for critical analysis in whatever form that reader may post it.

As a poet I ask of you, as a reader "Is it clear and does it make sense, what's wrong with it?" In this way we act as editors and people are asked to BE editors of our work. If, as an authorial voice, I know that there are problems then should I not ask these specific questions to narrow the wealth of opinions?

I see some of your points though.

 

[Angeline]

Senna is wrong on this issue, I believe. Yes, there is a value to the reader, but only if you as a communicator or poet can 'speak' to them. If 'you' are posting a poem on the PDC, you are asking for critical analysis in whatever form that reader may post it.

As a poet I ask of you, as a reader "Is it clear and does it make sense, what's wrong with it?" In this way we act as editors and people are asked to BE editors of our work. If, as an authorial voice, I know that there are problems then should I not ask these specific questions to narrow the wealth of opinions?

I see some of your points though.

The thing is that people will often ask questions that are really a sneaky way to defend what they wrote--and that's not the point. You don't have to defend your poem to anyone, ever, but you might have to revise it if what you are trying to do is not coming across.

But how do questions help? If I say "I think you mean x" and you thought you meant y, something's not working. It's either the way I read or the way you write, and it's up to you--the poet--to learn and figure out whether and how you need to revise.

The only reason I can think of for questions is if you don't understand what someone is saying to you, then you can ask for clarification. Personally, I'd wait a period of time after a poem is posted, absorb all the feedback, then ask for clarification if you need it. Backing and forthing about what something means, or arguing over comma placement or line break is a waste. If I have to explain to someone what my poem means, that's not a good sign.

That has been a hard lesson for me to learn, one I'm still learning, but I think it's important.

 

[anonamouse]

As i said, some poetry workshops require the author to sit back and listen as their poem is discussed. This forces the poem to stand on its own, without the lawyerly skills of the author along in defense. Poems released into the wild must do this.

This a good point also, interesting exchange between CharlyH and Angeline, very healthy, see points in both
and I am being serious as

anonamouse?

Fuck that - only one valid question

am I a genius ?
and did I spell genious right?

 

[Angeline]

This a good point also, interesting exchange between CharlyH and Angeline, very healthy, see points in both
and I am being serious as

anonamouse?

Fuck that - only one valid question

am I a genius ?
and did I spell genious right?

you wanna be god AND a genius? don't you think that's asking a bit much?

 

[WickedEve]

If I have to explain to someone what my poem means, that's not a good sign.

Not necessarily. Some readers understand only cliché ridden crap. A poet can present a original, well written poem to them, and they scratch their heads and say "huh?" There are some readers that I'm glad don't understand my poetry. If they did, then that's not a good sign!


And hi.

 

[eagleyez]

hiya Evie

want some chicken?

*hugs from here to down yonder*

 

[anonamouse]

you wanna be god AND a genius? don't you think that's asking a bit much?

No, I am god, I was wondering about the genius part, some times I wonder if I shouldn't have taken a little more time, sent an easier snake

BTW that is a line - don't steal it

 

[CharleyH]

The thing is that people will often ask questions that are really a sneaky way to defend what they wrote--and that's not the point. You don't have to defend your poem to anyone, ever, but you might have to revise it if what you are trying to do is not coming across.

But how do questions help? If I say "I think you mean x" and you thought you meant y, something's not working. It's either the way I read or the way you write, and it's up to you--the poet--to learn and figure out whether and how you need to revise.

The only reason I can think of for questions is if you don't understand what someone is saying to you, then you can ask for clarification. Personally, I'd wait a period of time after a poem is posted, absorb all the feedback, then ask for clarification if you need it. Backing and forthing about what something means, or arguing over comma placement or line break is a waste. If I have to explain to someone what my poem means, that's not a good sign.

That has been a hard lesson for me to learn, one I'm still learning, but I think it's important.

What is sneaky about asking what you need to know, Angeline? I'm not sure there is backing and forthing so far, other than me, and quite frankly I am very specific about my images. Are these simple images above a persons mind, even if they are obvious and very common denominator? Sure, that's a vain statement, but its interesting why some people get them and others don't. Symbols I mean, and lines too, there is a syllabic pattern in mine, and a very distinctive wordiness and filtering out to nothing. If you don't get it? What I wrote? I WANT to know why. What's sneaky? I think questions are straight forward.

 

[anonamouse]

Not necessarily. Some readers understand only cliché ridden crap. A poet can present a original, well written poem to them, and they scratch their heads and say "huh?" There are some readers that I'm glad don't understand my poetry. If they did, then that's not a good sign!


And hi.

speaking of signs...I don't understand all of your poetry, can you explain...
over fritters?

A poet can present a original, well written poem to them, and they scratch their heads and say "huh?"
Despite the fact that I think YOU are one of the most original, and most of time they are well written, I reserve the right to say to scratch my head and say "huh?" That "huh" is the sound of amazement, of eureka.

come let us speak of portentious things in hushed voices

When are you going to come back and KICK ASS

 

[Angeline]

Not necessarily. Some readers understand only cliché ridden crap. A poet can present a original, well written poem to them, and they scratch their heads and say "huh?" There are some readers that I'm glad don't understand my poetry. If they did, then that's not a good sign!


And hi.

Oh well. I agree with anything you say. You have Jedi-like power over me.

I really do see your point. My mommy loves my sappiest poems best.

Hi.

 

[Angeline]

No, I am god, I was wondering about the genius part, some times I wonder if I shouldn't have taken a little more time, sent an easier snake

BTW that is a line - don't steal it

sent an easier snake?

oh the possibilities.

 

[Angeline]

What is sneaky about asking what you need to know, Angeline? I'm not sure there is backing and forthing so far, other than me, and quite frankly I am very specific about my images. Are these simple images above a persons mind, even if they are obvious and very common denominator? Sure, that's a vain statement, but its interesting why some people get them and others don't. Symbols I mean, and lines too, there is a syllabic pattern in mine, and a very distinctive wordiness and filtering out to nothing. If you don't get it? What I wrote? I WANT to know why. What's sneaky? I think questions are straight forward.

Asking what you need to know is fine. I do think it's best to absorb what feedback you get first though. I like to digest suggestions before I react to them. What I don't think is productive are the questions that thinly mask "no you misunderstood what I meant." I don't see how that improves anything--except protects someone's ego, yknow? And that may help the person, but not the poem.

 

[CharleyH]

Asking what you need to know is fine. I do think it's best to absorb what feedback you get first though. I like to digest suggestions before I react to them. What I don't think is productive are the questions that thinly mask "no you misunderstood what I meant." I don't see how that improves anything--except protects someone's ego, yknow? And that may help the person, but not the poem.

Which questions do you refer to? Then we'll talk.

 

[Angeline]

Which questions do you refer to? Then we'll talk.

Nothing specific.

Anyway ee is in bed with a DVD starting. He's uh waitin for me.

 

[twelveoone]

Asking what you need to know is fine. I do think it's best to absorb what feedback you get first though. I like to digest suggestions before I react to them. What I don't think is productive are the questions that thinly mask "no you misunderstood what I meant." I don't see how that improves anything--except protects someone's ego, yknow? And that may help the person, but not the poem.

Aye, tis a shame, one can't be as thick-skinned as Pat Carrington, able to argue his points, but always listening, and will modify, for the good of the poem. Where has he been lately, tired of this Wasteland?

 

[PatCarrington]

Aye, tis a shame, one can't be as thick-skinned as Pat Carrington, able to argue his points, but always listening, and will modify, for the good of the poem. Where has he been lately, tired of this Wasteland?

....pretty much.