About wannabes and broken subs – Hecate spilling her poison
- Thread starter Hecate
- Start date
Richard49
The Gentleman Dom
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- Feb 27, 2002
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sortacurious said:
One of the danagers us Doms face in meeting someone new is that they scream rape or abuse or whatever.....
It can be very scary.
It pleases me that we have been able to help you or others with this thread.
Richard
Michigan
GreenEyedGirl
Literotica Guru
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- Feb 11, 2002
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Hecate :
That was incredibly well thought out and stated.
Beautifully done.
Thank you.
And I just wanted to comment on something Richard49 replied to in regards to sortacurious' post. I can immagine the red flags that fly when the word rape is mentioned by a sub to a prospective Dom/me. If someone has not had the proper therapy and outlets for dealing with this trauma, then I am sure that they will break themselves in reliving the rape through the rituals.
I survived a brutal assault, went through years of therapy, and have considered myself whole again for a few years now. Although this was an area I was very concerned with in approaching this lifestyle as there are things that I can not handle happening to me, and being a newbie, most of my concern was because I lacked context. Yet I was drawn to this life and these fantasies nonetheless. But in talking with others, both here at Lit and in my area, I realize now that giving over control includes trust and something that Hecate stated stands out as something that any newbie should hold close, and that was the importance of safe, sane and consentual. So I would hope that anyone who has been raped would seriously think about the potential repercussions of entering a dom/sub relationship to their psyche's and selves.
Hope I did not hijack Hecate's rant with my own, but I felt the need to share my thoughts.
That was incredibly well thought out and stated.
Beautifully done.
Thank you.
And I just wanted to comment on something Richard49 replied to in regards to sortacurious' post. I can immagine the red flags that fly when the word rape is mentioned by a sub to a prospective Dom/me. If someone has not had the proper therapy and outlets for dealing with this trauma, then I am sure that they will break themselves in reliving the rape through the rituals.
I survived a brutal assault, went through years of therapy, and have considered myself whole again for a few years now. Although this was an area I was very concerned with in approaching this lifestyle as there are things that I can not handle happening to me, and being a newbie, most of my concern was because I lacked context. Yet I was drawn to this life and these fantasies nonetheless. But in talking with others, both here at Lit and in my area, I realize now that giving over control includes trust and something that Hecate stated stands out as something that any newbie should hold close, and that was the importance of safe, sane and consentual. So I would hope that anyone who has been raped would seriously think about the potential repercussions of entering a dom/sub relationship to their psyche's and selves.
Hope I did not hijack Hecate's rant with my own, but I felt the need to share my thoughts.
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sortacurious
Je suis prête
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
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- 5,250
thank you,
GreenEyedGirl,
I couldn't have said it better myself. These are concerns of mine, as well as insecurities of a scene getting out of control. But I'm understanding more about the trust factor in a relatioship and how that comes into things.
Perhaps I should start another thread to deal more directly with my thought on this and get additional feedback.
But, again thank you.
ps Richard, I also understand the flip side to this that you mentioned and take that just as seriously!
GreenEyedGirl,
I couldn't have said it better myself. These are concerns of mine, as well as insecurities of a scene getting out of control. But I'm understanding more about the trust factor in a relatioship and how that comes into things.
Perhaps I should start another thread to deal more directly with my thought on this and get additional feedback.
But, again thank you.
ps Richard, I also understand the flip side to this that you mentioned and take that just as seriously!
Breaking
Breaking a sub, lover, friend (or all three) is wrong since there has to be respect for the other person. If you have ever had anyone try to break you or did break you . . . sorry that had to happen since it is so unnecessary. But never give up looking for that special person in your life.
Breaking a sub, lover, friend (or all three) is wrong since there has to be respect for the other person. If you have ever had anyone try to break you or did break you . . . sorry that had to happen since it is so unnecessary. But never give up looking for that special person in your life.
Wannabe,newbie,maybe,posibly.
congratulations and salutations on posting a brilliant thead Hecate.
i guess you could call me the ultimate Wannabe,newbie, I live in a nilla relationship with a loving wife who has no desire to explore BDSM and she is quite happy with things as they stand.
So for me the whole exercise is theoretical and online and will remain so, to do anything else would be a betrayal of a trust she laid in me 14 years ago when we married. so a wannabe i must be as it will never become a reality but always remain a unfulfilled desire. so all i can do is learn as much of he BDSM lifestyle without ever experiencing the reality. none the less it is a serious interest.
oh by the way Hecate if your a softy then i must be a marshmallow lol
Well enough of my ramblings bye for now
Paul
congratulations and salutations on posting a brilliant thead Hecate.
i guess you could call me the ultimate Wannabe,newbie, I live in a nilla relationship with a loving wife who has no desire to explore BDSM and she is quite happy with things as they stand.
So for me the whole exercise is theoretical and online and will remain so, to do anything else would be a betrayal of a trust she laid in me 14 years ago when we married. so a wannabe i must be as it will never become a reality but always remain a unfulfilled desire. so all i can do is learn as much of he BDSM lifestyle without ever experiencing the reality. none the less it is a serious interest.
oh by the way Hecate if your a softy then i must be a marshmallow lol
Well enough of my ramblings bye for now
Paul
Shadowsdream
Dream Maker
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- Apr 29, 2002
- Posts
- 3,173
Hecate
Thank You..thank You...thank You...for Your rendition. I applaud each and every word.
It is a long way from Internet to reality. New dominant and submissive hopefuls are more vulnerable than they realize if they run before they walk.
Shattered illusions hurt just as deeply on either side of the blindfold. Crossing the line from wanna be to newbie should simply be the intoxicating beauty of inhaling the essence of exploring the wealth of information and help so easily found simply for the asking.
It saddens Me to see so many running for the finish line only to turn around when they get to the end of the track and find themselves standing alone.
Shattered illusions are not easily repaired.
Choosing a sub is an intimate and personal thing. A long term committment. You cannot strip them of their identity to make them who You want them to be. Breaking any human being, whether emotionally, spiritually, or physically becomes abuse...whether that was Your intent or not.
Of course all of the above pertains to relationships that did not begin online as well.
In My opinion of course.
Thank You..thank You...thank You...for Your rendition. I applaud each and every word.
It is a long way from Internet to reality. New dominant and submissive hopefuls are more vulnerable than they realize if they run before they walk.
Shattered illusions hurt just as deeply on either side of the blindfold. Crossing the line from wanna be to newbie should simply be the intoxicating beauty of inhaling the essence of exploring the wealth of information and help so easily found simply for the asking.
It saddens Me to see so many running for the finish line only to turn around when they get to the end of the track and find themselves standing alone.
Shattered illusions are not easily repaired.
Choosing a sub is an intimate and personal thing. A long term committment. You cannot strip them of their identity to make them who You want them to be. Breaking any human being, whether emotionally, spiritually, or physically becomes abuse...whether that was Your intent or not.
Of course all of the above pertains to relationships that did not begin online as well.
In My opinion of course.
KestralWolfe
Really Experienced
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- 178
Hecate: Thank you. Your ramblings were well-thgought, and well-presented. Here's to hoping all will read and take note of these issues!
KW
KW
~Dream~
Loving My Soulmate Scott
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With Artful's permission,
thank-you hectate for your words...1st of all as a survivor of rape and therapy for it for over 3 years i cannot agree with everything that has been said.I personally feel that this relationship between myself and my Master is the healthiest I have been in in a long time..He treats me with utmost respect and i trust alot to Him but not all, as trust is earned. We have only been together 6 days and we are only getting to know each other but rest assured ..this is NOT a GAME to me..some of my will has been broken but my spirit is still very strong..if i do give in to Him(submit) it is by choice or my love for Him..My special someone HAS been found and i feel i will learn most all that I need to know about this lifestyle from Him..but i shall still continue to educate myself more& more.. who I am on the internet is who i am in r/l Artful's dream's desires and feelings are MINE ..I am not a bot..lolsad to say for some this is not true..they feel they must lie .. I know my illlusions have NOT been shattered but then again I have a very strong mind
thank-you hectate for your words...1st of all as a survivor of rape and therapy for it for over 3 years i cannot agree with everything that has been said.I personally feel that this relationship between myself and my Master is the healthiest I have been in in a long time..He treats me with utmost respect and i trust alot to Him but not all, as trust is earned. We have only been together 6 days and we are only getting to know each other but rest assured ..this is NOT a GAME to me..some of my will has been broken but my spirit is still very strong..if i do give in to Him(submit) it is by choice or my love for Him..My special someone HAS been found and i feel i will learn most all that I need to know about this lifestyle from Him..but i shall still continue to educate myself more& more.. who I am on the internet is who i am in r/l Artful's dream's desires and feelings are MINE ..I am not a bot..lolsad to say for some this is not true..they feel they must lie .. I know my illlusions have NOT been shattered but then again I have a very strong mind
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Hecate wrote as quoted below this response, on breaking.
I reply: On the ground you've chosen, your point is well-taken. To you, break is like 'breaking a spine' or a piece of china. You are talking about mental or physical destruction (perhaps partial). You speak of the broken one as 'fearful' and ready to do what's told, and loss of dignity and self neglect. Indeed, signs of an unhealthy mental state.
Consider, however, 'breaking' a horse, in the sense that it's no longer wild, but accepts a saddle and being ridden. But we should NOT assume it's fearful and spiritless. I will call this 'w-breaking', the 'w' standing for will.
So there is a common reference, consider The Story of O, or, on this forum, the 'Slave Silk' series of norma jeanne. In the first case, about halfway through the book, O, who is becoming w-broken, is described as having clear eyes and prouder carriage.
In the series, "Silk" is w-broken and at one point, for a while is quivering, at another, crying. Yet she continues everyday functioning. These crises are markers of a transition, not ideals for a continued way of life.
H claims breaking is not sane, and probably not consensual. But it's not clear the first applies to w-breaking. But the second probably does, in a way, in that one can't directly will that one's will be broken. One can, however, choose a situation, and after having checked it out for basic safety, let go the supports, lifelines, etc.
H speaks of losing 'I am' and indeed that may be part of w-breaking. But this concept is applicable to ecstatic states; it's sought by mystics. Part of the rationale being that most people's "I" is pretty poorly(inaccurately) defined; losing it wouldn't be that bad. (Losing "I am" is *not* destruction of the person as any reader of the mystics--Ramana Maharshi, Teresa of Avila, e.g.--can attest)
W-breaking entails that confidence and self-respect, a mentally healthy amount, are retained. Even the will is available for doing one's job, and resisting salespeople. Everyday functioning is maintained, at least on the surface. Yet the will is subject to another, and it's not longer even conceived that that not be the case. This is *not illustrated in 'micromanagement', neurotic subbing that asks 'Shall I brush my teeth?" "Shall I open my mail?" "May I put the toast in the toaster?" Rather the concept is that at a fundamental level the w-broken sub functions as an extention of the Master's will.
What of the sub's needs? one may say. Well, you don't beat and starve a prize horse. He has a stall and stable and running area that would be the envy of half the world's population. A 'broken horse' is not starved, except by an abusive lunatic. But what of individuality, uniqueness? Well, w-breaking is not a cookie cutter process; each functioning sub has characteristics and temperament. But at a fundamental level, individual needs are not asserted, or, to be more precise, the w-broken sub does not envision any other way of meeting his/her core needs (love, security) than by total subjection.
I respect Hecate's thread and see the measure of acclaim, but just think it's worth putting another viewpoint on the table, even if I hear mostly booing and see the tomatoes flying by.
+++++++++++++
Hecate wrote on 2-26 -02:
“breaking a sub”
In case you are reading this and don’t know me – I am a Domme (mostly anyway), and a bisexual one as well. (Talk about options here *winks*)
My submissive is more than my pet (oh yes, she is that too but ...) she is my lover and my friend. She is a most precious jewel that I wear in my “crown” - she sparkles and shines from deep within her, has that special glow that I adore about her. Why am I telling you all this?
Because the moment I would “break” her all that would be gone. There is no sparkle in a shattered and chipped diamond!
Breaking a sub – doesn’t it sound horrible (I can kinda hear the bones crack as I imagine a broken spine)?
Well, for some this is seemingly a challenge, one of the “greater aims” of domination. Sorry, but for me those people have just read a few too many fantasy novels about the subject it seems!
Let me take a detour and try to explain my understanding of breaking someone.
If you have managed to instill fear (physical or emotional) to such an extend into a person so that he/she will do whatever you tell them, without wondering if it is good for them, then someone is broken.
If you have managed to dissolve a feeling of “I am” in someone, so that this person can no longer define themselves and their position in the world without you telling them who they are and what they should do, then you have broken someone.
In my deep inner conviction we are always bound to the principle of safe, sane and consensual. Can breaking someone be consensual? We even might get into a discussion about that if you really stretch the limit of that word – but sane!? No fucking way!
BDSM is for me something to make each of the participants richer, stronger and more settled in who and what they are. If someone decides that they derive maximum pleasure from pleasing their Dom/me, fine – it is a gift gladly accepted. If they feel more secure in the knowledge there is someone they can lean on and someone they can orient their value system at – fine, as long as this is chosen by free will, just as I have seen it happen in non-BDSM relations too.
But if it results in a total loss of personal dignity (not during a limited scene, mind you – it can be thrilling in specific settings as a part of humiliation scening) and self-worth perspective even out of scene then I am having a serious case of breaking a spirit! Even more so if an experienced Dominant uses all the knowledge of physical and mental influence to push the submissive over that point.
If a Dom/me uses his/her powers to get a sub to exactly that point of self-neglect, making the sub a quivering wreck that only nurtures on the approval/disapproval of the Dominant then things are definitely being taken to far – way too far. Please All – realize that this is REAL, this is not some Gorean Fantasy book or the world of Sleeping Beauty! This is scarring/harming people for life in the worst of cases!
[end of quoted excerpt]
I reply: On the ground you've chosen, your point is well-taken. To you, break is like 'breaking a spine' or a piece of china. You are talking about mental or physical destruction (perhaps partial). You speak of the broken one as 'fearful' and ready to do what's told, and loss of dignity and self neglect. Indeed, signs of an unhealthy mental state.
Consider, however, 'breaking' a horse, in the sense that it's no longer wild, but accepts a saddle and being ridden. But we should NOT assume it's fearful and spiritless. I will call this 'w-breaking', the 'w' standing for will.
So there is a common reference, consider The Story of O, or, on this forum, the 'Slave Silk' series of norma jeanne. In the first case, about halfway through the book, O, who is becoming w-broken, is described as having clear eyes and prouder carriage.
In the series, "Silk" is w-broken and at one point, for a while is quivering, at another, crying. Yet she continues everyday functioning. These crises are markers of a transition, not ideals for a continued way of life.
H claims breaking is not sane, and probably not consensual. But it's not clear the first applies to w-breaking. But the second probably does, in a way, in that one can't directly will that one's will be broken. One can, however, choose a situation, and after having checked it out for basic safety, let go the supports, lifelines, etc.
H speaks of losing 'I am' and indeed that may be part of w-breaking. But this concept is applicable to ecstatic states; it's sought by mystics. Part of the rationale being that most people's "I" is pretty poorly(inaccurately) defined; losing it wouldn't be that bad. (Losing "I am" is *not* destruction of the person as any reader of the mystics--Ramana Maharshi, Teresa of Avila, e.g.--can attest)
W-breaking entails that confidence and self-respect, a mentally healthy amount, are retained. Even the will is available for doing one's job, and resisting salespeople. Everyday functioning is maintained, at least on the surface. Yet the will is subject to another, and it's not longer even conceived that that not be the case. This is *not illustrated in 'micromanagement', neurotic subbing that asks 'Shall I brush my teeth?" "Shall I open my mail?" "May I put the toast in the toaster?" Rather the concept is that at a fundamental level the w-broken sub functions as an extention of the Master's will.
What of the sub's needs? one may say. Well, you don't beat and starve a prize horse. He has a stall and stable and running area that would be the envy of half the world's population. A 'broken horse' is not starved, except by an abusive lunatic. But what of individuality, uniqueness? Well, w-breaking is not a cookie cutter process; each functioning sub has characteristics and temperament. But at a fundamental level, individual needs are not asserted, or, to be more precise, the w-broken sub does not envision any other way of meeting his/her core needs (love, security) than by total subjection.
I respect Hecate's thread and see the measure of acclaim, but just think it's worth putting another viewpoint on the table, even if I hear mostly booing and see the tomatoes flying by.
+++++++++++++
Hecate wrote on 2-26 -02:
“breaking a sub”
In case you are reading this and don’t know me – I am a Domme (mostly anyway), and a bisexual one as well. (Talk about options here *winks*)
My submissive is more than my pet (oh yes, she is that too but ...) she is my lover and my friend. She is a most precious jewel that I wear in my “crown” - she sparkles and shines from deep within her, has that special glow that I adore about her. Why am I telling you all this?
Because the moment I would “break” her all that would be gone. There is no sparkle in a shattered and chipped diamond!
Breaking a sub – doesn’t it sound horrible (I can kinda hear the bones crack as I imagine a broken spine)?
Well, for some this is seemingly a challenge, one of the “greater aims” of domination. Sorry, but for me those people have just read a few too many fantasy novels about the subject it seems!
Let me take a detour and try to explain my understanding of breaking someone.
If you have managed to instill fear (physical or emotional) to such an extend into a person so that he/she will do whatever you tell them, without wondering if it is good for them, then someone is broken.
If you have managed to dissolve a feeling of “I am” in someone, so that this person can no longer define themselves and their position in the world without you telling them who they are and what they should do, then you have broken someone.
In my deep inner conviction we are always bound to the principle of safe, sane and consensual. Can breaking someone be consensual? We even might get into a discussion about that if you really stretch the limit of that word – but sane!? No fucking way!
BDSM is for me something to make each of the participants richer, stronger and more settled in who and what they are. If someone decides that they derive maximum pleasure from pleasing their Dom/me, fine – it is a gift gladly accepted. If they feel more secure in the knowledge there is someone they can lean on and someone they can orient their value system at – fine, as long as this is chosen by free will, just as I have seen it happen in non-BDSM relations too.
But if it results in a total loss of personal dignity (not during a limited scene, mind you – it can be thrilling in specific settings as a part of humiliation scening) and self-worth perspective even out of scene then I am having a serious case of breaking a spirit! Even more so if an experienced Dominant uses all the knowledge of physical and mental influence to push the submissive over that point.
If a Dom/me uses his/her powers to get a sub to exactly that point of self-neglect, making the sub a quivering wreck that only nurtures on the approval/disapproval of the Dominant then things are definitely being taken to far – way too far. Please All – realize that this is REAL, this is not some Gorean Fantasy book or the world of Sleeping Beauty! This is scarring/harming people for life in the worst of cases!
[end of quoted excerpt]
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SpectreT
Knight in Tarnished Armor
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2001
- Posts
- 1,905
No Booing, No Tomatoes, but no agreement, at least from me....
Personally, I can think of nothing more terrible than losing "I am".
I cannot ever envision a time where I would wish to shed "I am", or enlisting another's aid in removing it from me.
This is for a simple, pure, self-preservation issue.
As damn near everyone in this forum knows, I've been manic-depressive nearly all my life, and have only just recently begun to break myself free of it. I do this on a day-to-day basis, fight the feelings of pain, worthlessness, uselessness and abject and utter failure that any contemplation of my life would ordinarily bring on. I equally refuse to embrace the complete euphoria that falsely tells me I can make anything work, no matter how impractical or hare-brained, scatters my attention, and utterly destroys my judgement.
The only reason I can do this is because of "I am".
My mantra, the basic thought that has helped me so far, is very simple:
"I am" is far greater than anything that can follow; i.e., "I am bored.", "I am lonely.", "I am angry." or "I am depressed."
"I am" is always there; bored, lonely, angry or depressed always go away.
The fact that I am aware of "I am" is what's kept me alive for most of last year; before that, I didn't really give any consideration one way or another to "I am"; I simply had an obligation to my friends and family to keep myself alive despite my own wishes, because I knew exactly what kind of pain I'd be inflicting on them by taking my life. Now that I'm aware of "I am", and its simple presence, "I am" taking my life back from my feelings.
"I am" not my feelings; I experience my feelings.
"I am" not my thoughts; I control my thoughts.
Those two sentences, the bedrock of my life, cannot be said without "I am".
My sig line here at Lit is from an Iron Maiden song, and I think this post will help explain how and why that line resonates within me; I have the inner strength to deny my impulses and urges, but the cost is constant suffering; almost never enjoying life, merely trudging through it. I have the strength, and now I use it, direct it. "I am" working towards a life for myself instead of a life for everyone other than myself.
Of course, that's just my opinion.....
(P.S. I just noticed.... you ask us to consider fiction for examples; Hecate admonishes us that we're real people, not fictional characters.)
Personally, I can think of nothing more terrible than losing "I am".
I cannot ever envision a time where I would wish to shed "I am", or enlisting another's aid in removing it from me.
This is for a simple, pure, self-preservation issue.
As damn near everyone in this forum knows, I've been manic-depressive nearly all my life, and have only just recently begun to break myself free of it. I do this on a day-to-day basis, fight the feelings of pain, worthlessness, uselessness and abject and utter failure that any contemplation of my life would ordinarily bring on. I equally refuse to embrace the complete euphoria that falsely tells me I can make anything work, no matter how impractical or hare-brained, scatters my attention, and utterly destroys my judgement.
The only reason I can do this is because of "I am".
My mantra, the basic thought that has helped me so far, is very simple:
"I am" is far greater than anything that can follow; i.e., "I am bored.", "I am lonely.", "I am angry." or "I am depressed."
"I am" is always there; bored, lonely, angry or depressed always go away.
The fact that I am aware of "I am" is what's kept me alive for most of last year; before that, I didn't really give any consideration one way or another to "I am"; I simply had an obligation to my friends and family to keep myself alive despite my own wishes, because I knew exactly what kind of pain I'd be inflicting on them by taking my life. Now that I'm aware of "I am", and its simple presence, "I am" taking my life back from my feelings.
"I am" not my feelings; I experience my feelings.
"I am" not my thoughts; I control my thoughts.
Those two sentences, the bedrock of my life, cannot be said without "I am".
My sig line here at Lit is from an Iron Maiden song, and I think this post will help explain how and why that line resonates within me; I have the inner strength to deny my impulses and urges, but the cost is constant suffering; almost never enjoying life, merely trudging through it. I have the strength, and now I use it, direct it. "I am" working towards a life for myself instead of a life for everyone other than myself.
Of course, that's just my opinion.....
(P.S. I just noticed.... you ask us to consider fiction for examples; Hecate admonishes us that we're real people, not fictional characters.)
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DustyWolfe
Proud Transman
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2002
- Posts
- 6,458
I don't know if my response to this is warranted or even wanted, but I just thought I would tell a bit about my experiences. I don't talk about this very much because it is hard. Most people don't know the extent of things, and I am still trying to tell my partner/Mistress about all that transpired.
I was/am broken. I lived with a woman for 4 years in what started out as a vanilla relationship. It was to be a vanilla relationship as far as I was concerned but she wanted to take it to the next level. My response was always "no" because I knew that she was capable of hurting me badly if she so desired.
In my mind our relationship was always vanilla, but to her I was not a lover nor a pet. I was her slave 24/7. I was to be at her beck and call and ready to do as she commanded me. Keep in mind that we had a holy union and everything and that this was supposed to be an equal partnership.
She left the house one day and I got bored, I started going through some of her boxes and found several Gor books. I knew what they were because of my own desires to serve but refused to read them out of fear. I knew that I could not do the things discussed in the books or she would have total control of me. She really thought that she was a Gorean Mistress. She even had a symbol she wanted me to have tattoed on my right bicep, marking me as hers.
I continued my life, balking at her commands when I was out of her reach and obeying when I was near her. Of course, I would never balk at anything that Jen asked of me, because I am her willing pet.
Our sex life was bad. It consisted of her hurting me ie, bruising and breaking of my skin all over, including the genital areas. She would bite me till I would bleed and do many other things that she should have never done. I would tell her no and to stop and beg her to not hurt me anymore but she kept on.
The longer I was with her the more I lost who I was, I lost "me", "I am", "I want" and the I all together. I was nothing, I didn't know who I was or what I was to be in life. I just knew that I had to obey her or pay the price. She knew my trigger points for my Fibromyalgia and if I didn't obey her right away she would hit my worst ones with a really thick narrow yardstick and take me to my knees then pull me up by my hair.
I was not allowed to feel anything, and still today it is very hard for me to experience emotions other than fear. The scariest emotion for me is anger. The other day I got angry for the first time in many years and it terrified me. K broke me down to the point where I was like a zombie. One night she told me "You will do what I say, or you will be punished. I am going to break you yet"
I was nothing more than her play toy... I was not allowed to feel or have emotions. I was expected to be a "bot" of sorts. If I cried she would hit me and tell me I was stupid and to quit being a baby. If I yelped in pain she would hit me and tell me to shut up and not be such a pussy.
I turned the tables on her one day when she told me to do something and responded by saying "Yes Mistress" she of course busted my lip and my noise and threw me out of the house into the rain, no car keys, no jacket... Nothing. Made me stand in the rain for hours. I got very sick as a result but still had to wait on her. I waited on her with a 105 fever, double pneumonia and whooping cough -was sick 4 whole months. She wouldn't take me to the dr or even feed me. I finally became bedridden. I really just wanted to die. I went two whole weeks without any nourishment, just water here and there and the ocassional small cup of sprite. I couldn't walk, I had to crawl to the bathroom when I had to go, which was once every two or three days because I was so dehydrated. I thought about killing myself but couldn't move enough to do even that.
Then in February of this year, she choked me and strangled me to the point that I could hardly talk. I got scared and threw up on her. She smacked me as usual then berated me. I made a step that I had never made before. I called Jen. She'd had enough, and unbeknownst to K, Jen and I had been together for many months. I was even collared to Jen at that time. Jen called my parents and they came and got me. And that is where I am at today. Still nursing my wounds and learning to let people touch me again. Learning to trust without abandon. Learning who I am and that I am worthy of love and happiness. It's been a long road so far, but I know that some day I wont be broken anymore.
I was/am broken. I lived with a woman for 4 years in what started out as a vanilla relationship. It was to be a vanilla relationship as far as I was concerned but she wanted to take it to the next level. My response was always "no" because I knew that she was capable of hurting me badly if she so desired.
In my mind our relationship was always vanilla, but to her I was not a lover nor a pet. I was her slave 24/7. I was to be at her beck and call and ready to do as she commanded me. Keep in mind that we had a holy union and everything and that this was supposed to be an equal partnership.
She left the house one day and I got bored, I started going through some of her boxes and found several Gor books. I knew what they were because of my own desires to serve but refused to read them out of fear. I knew that I could not do the things discussed in the books or she would have total control of me. She really thought that she was a Gorean Mistress. She even had a symbol she wanted me to have tattoed on my right bicep, marking me as hers.
I continued my life, balking at her commands when I was out of her reach and obeying when I was near her. Of course, I would never balk at anything that Jen asked of me, because I am her willing pet.
Our sex life was bad. It consisted of her hurting me ie, bruising and breaking of my skin all over, including the genital areas. She would bite me till I would bleed and do many other things that she should have never done. I would tell her no and to stop and beg her to not hurt me anymore but she kept on.
The longer I was with her the more I lost who I was, I lost "me", "I am", "I want" and the I all together. I was nothing, I didn't know who I was or what I was to be in life. I just knew that I had to obey her or pay the price. She knew my trigger points for my Fibromyalgia and if I didn't obey her right away she would hit my worst ones with a really thick narrow yardstick and take me to my knees then pull me up by my hair.
I was not allowed to feel anything, and still today it is very hard for me to experience emotions other than fear. The scariest emotion for me is anger. The other day I got angry for the first time in many years and it terrified me. K broke me down to the point where I was like a zombie. One night she told me "You will do what I say, or you will be punished. I am going to break you yet"
I was nothing more than her play toy... I was not allowed to feel or have emotions. I was expected to be a "bot" of sorts. If I cried she would hit me and tell me I was stupid and to quit being a baby. If I yelped in pain she would hit me and tell me to shut up and not be such a pussy.
I turned the tables on her one day when she told me to do something and responded by saying "Yes Mistress" she of course busted my lip and my noise and threw me out of the house into the rain, no car keys, no jacket... Nothing. Made me stand in the rain for hours. I got very sick as a result but still had to wait on her. I waited on her with a 105 fever, double pneumonia and whooping cough -was sick 4 whole months. She wouldn't take me to the dr or even feed me. I finally became bedridden. I really just wanted to die. I went two whole weeks without any nourishment, just water here and there and the ocassional small cup of sprite. I couldn't walk, I had to crawl to the bathroom when I had to go, which was once every two or three days because I was so dehydrated. I thought about killing myself but couldn't move enough to do even that.
Then in February of this year, she choked me and strangled me to the point that I could hardly talk. I got scared and threw up on her. She smacked me as usual then berated me. I made a step that I had never made before. I called Jen. She'd had enough, and unbeknownst to K, Jen and I had been together for many months. I was even collared to Jen at that time. Jen called my parents and they came and got me. And that is where I am at today. Still nursing my wounds and learning to let people touch me again. Learning to trust without abandon. Learning who I am and that I am worthy of love and happiness. It's been a long road so far, but I know that some day I wont be broken anymore.
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cymbidia
unrepentant pervert
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2001
- Posts
- 8,786
It is with enormous affection and sympathy that i read the words that came to us from the hearts and life truths of T and Dusty. I ache for your tears, both of you, and rejoice at the core of strength you've held to, a core that's enabled you both to take strides into a world that's far more colorful and welcoming than the places in which you survived for years before this time.
T, we've seen you grow strong and sure in the last year. We watched, smiling warmly, as you changed from someone who was hesitant to voice his thoughts and unsure what place he held in the middle of his own life, to the confident, assertive, admirably vocal and steadying presence you are today. You've accomplished much by dint of tremendous will.
Dusty, you're newer to us but have already become a part of the fabric in this place, nonetheless. Your story is heartbreaking, and terrible in that it's all too common. Too many women have had at least a brush or two with violently wrong relationships - and so very many BDSM'ers have had the doubly terrifying experience of our dominant being the one who is also abuser - with all the confusion and nightmarish divided loyalties that entails. Your strength is remarkable. I'll send wishes out to the gods for your continued return to health and your journey toward contentment, happiness, love, and peace with your Jen.
With those things firmly in mind, please allow me to say to say this: in a basic way, i agree with what Pure has offered for discussion.
Breaking someone can be horrible. All we have to do is read Dusty's post again to know it can be a thing of degradation and slime and rottenness beyond the imagination of most of us.
Taking away a core of "i am" is almost always wrong for real people in real relationships in the real world. We have to work. We have to interact with others. We have to go to weddings and movies and open new checking accounts and buy a new lawn mower when the old one breaks. We need that core of "i am" to survive in the world today; gone are the days when one could live cloistered, essentially, from outside influences. Gone are the days of true and real slavery - and we're far better off without such barbaric customs in all cases, anyway. (I always gotta smile when i use the word "barbaric" and many of you know why.)
However, within the tenants of a real time, face-to-face, skin-to-skin, mutually acceptable power-exchange framework, it can be exceedingly beneficial and desirous for some people to live quite contentedly inside a relationship wherein one partner has given the control of her will to such an extent that to some outsiders it looks like she's been "broken".
(Note: Again, in my thoughts here, i use "she" but please know that i mean both "she" and "he". I am a woman. I write from my perspective but don't mean that to exclude anyone just cuz they're not of my gender.)
Think for a moment: to some, nipple clamps look barbaric and they'd never consent to playing with them. Are they so, to you? To some outsiders, most of what we do with each other behind closed doors is the stuff of police reports and most definitely not the hotly, slickly, erotic moments thy are to us.
How we experience sexuality in our real lives can be seen as practices that stretch from exceedingly nilla through to nonconsensual and frighteningly wrong scenarios. No one style of sexuality will be right for us all, we all know that. Sexuality and our individual sexual needs exist along that nilla-deathly violent continuum and we all choose places along the line we like and don't like.
So it is with the delicate issue of "breaking a sub". The very phrase "breaking a sub" is a bad one and brings to mind the horror that Dusty has outlived. If we break things, we usually have to throw them away. Things that are glued together again never look quite the same. Once a thing is broken, its value is diminished.
Inside a BDSM relationship that has endured all the beginning stuff and been forged in the fires of shared passion and dedication, however, there exists a part of the sub, a part of her self, which can be subsumed into her dominant's will without causing her to lose her "i am".
I've been there, or craved going there anyway. I understand how it is to be so closely tied to one's dominant that such depth of submission is a thing of blazing joy and aching need. It's a hard path; none of us in these modern days are at all accustomed to giving that level of control to anyone, all the bullshit BDSM romance stories to the contrary. It requires intelligence and determination on the part of both involved, as well as a consensual decision to walk that path together. It requires time too, huge, skin-to-skin amounts of time. In my opinion, it's most definitely not a thing one can do unless one is living with one's partner - or seeing them every day or something like that. In a chat room setting, it's total fantasy and bears no resemblance to the sweat and time and dedication required to make such a bond work in everyday life.
In essence, though i have some issues with the words used by Pure (any kinda "breaking" language is inappropriate in this case, imo, since such an action is a consensual act of the offering and acceptance of extremely deep submission), i agree with his/her stance: sometimes "breaking a sub" can be a thing of extraordinary joy, transcendent contentment, and continued commitment for a D/s pair.
T, we've seen you grow strong and sure in the last year. We watched, smiling warmly, as you changed from someone who was hesitant to voice his thoughts and unsure what place he held in the middle of his own life, to the confident, assertive, admirably vocal and steadying presence you are today. You've accomplished much by dint of tremendous will.
Dusty, you're newer to us but have already become a part of the fabric in this place, nonetheless. Your story is heartbreaking, and terrible in that it's all too common. Too many women have had at least a brush or two with violently wrong relationships - and so very many BDSM'ers have had the doubly terrifying experience of our dominant being the one who is also abuser - with all the confusion and nightmarish divided loyalties that entails. Your strength is remarkable. I'll send wishes out to the gods for your continued return to health and your journey toward contentment, happiness, love, and peace with your Jen.
With those things firmly in mind, please allow me to say to say this: in a basic way, i agree with what Pure has offered for discussion.
Breaking someone can be horrible. All we have to do is read Dusty's post again to know it can be a thing of degradation and slime and rottenness beyond the imagination of most of us.
Taking away a core of "i am" is almost always wrong for real people in real relationships in the real world. We have to work. We have to interact with others. We have to go to weddings and movies and open new checking accounts and buy a new lawn mower when the old one breaks. We need that core of "i am" to survive in the world today; gone are the days when one could live cloistered, essentially, from outside influences. Gone are the days of true and real slavery - and we're far better off without such barbaric customs in all cases, anyway. (I always gotta smile when i use the word "barbaric" and many of you know why.)
However, within the tenants of a real time, face-to-face, skin-to-skin, mutually acceptable power-exchange framework, it can be exceedingly beneficial and desirous for some people to live quite contentedly inside a relationship wherein one partner has given the control of her will to such an extent that to some outsiders it looks like she's been "broken".
(Note: Again, in my thoughts here, i use "she" but please know that i mean both "she" and "he". I am a woman. I write from my perspective but don't mean that to exclude anyone just cuz they're not of my gender.)
Think for a moment: to some, nipple clamps look barbaric and they'd never consent to playing with them. Are they so, to you? To some outsiders, most of what we do with each other behind closed doors is the stuff of police reports and most definitely not the hotly, slickly, erotic moments thy are to us.
How we experience sexuality in our real lives can be seen as practices that stretch from exceedingly nilla through to nonconsensual and frighteningly wrong scenarios. No one style of sexuality will be right for us all, we all know that. Sexuality and our individual sexual needs exist along that nilla-deathly violent continuum and we all choose places along the line we like and don't like.
So it is with the delicate issue of "breaking a sub". The very phrase "breaking a sub" is a bad one and brings to mind the horror that Dusty has outlived. If we break things, we usually have to throw them away. Things that are glued together again never look quite the same. Once a thing is broken, its value is diminished.
Inside a BDSM relationship that has endured all the beginning stuff and been forged in the fires of shared passion and dedication, however, there exists a part of the sub, a part of her self, which can be subsumed into her dominant's will without causing her to lose her "i am".
I've been there, or craved going there anyway. I understand how it is to be so closely tied to one's dominant that such depth of submission is a thing of blazing joy and aching need. It's a hard path; none of us in these modern days are at all accustomed to giving that level of control to anyone, all the bullshit BDSM romance stories to the contrary. It requires intelligence and determination on the part of both involved, as well as a consensual decision to walk that path together. It requires time too, huge, skin-to-skin amounts of time. In my opinion, it's most definitely not a thing one can do unless one is living with one's partner - or seeing them every day or something like that. In a chat room setting, it's total fantasy and bears no resemblance to the sweat and time and dedication required to make such a bond work in everyday life.
In essence, though i have some issues with the words used by Pure (any kinda "breaking" language is inappropriate in this case, imo, since such an action is a consensual act of the offering and acceptance of extremely deep submission), i agree with his/her stance: sometimes "breaking a sub" can be a thing of extraordinary joy, transcendent contentment, and continued commitment for a D/s pair.
Dustygrrl said:
*holding you tight* I am proud of you for doing this and I am glad that you were comfortable enough to post this. Had I know the extent of how bad things were I'd have called your parents before I did but there were reasons why I wasn't told because I'd have said things to her and that would have been bad for you.
But you are safe know and we will be in each other's arms soon.
Thank you Cym all the good thoughts and wishes bring us one step closer to being together.
Ebonyfire
Ball Stretcher
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2002
- Posts
- 11,729
Abuse can happen to male subs too
We usually hear about the awful things that happen to female subs, but we rarely hear what happens to male subs, at the hands of Dom/mes. I also have a friend (Domme) who was almost killed by one of her subs.
I hear the male side because I only deal with male submissives. I have talked to several males who were in bondage and beaten senseless by female dominants they placed their trust in.
Abuse under the guise of D/s may be more prevalent than we would like to think. That is why this thread and some of the others lists have an important function. We must educate subs and Dom/mes alike to recognise what is acceptable and what is criminal before law enforcement does it for us.
I applaud every person who has the courage to tell their own story so that others can avoid the same fate.
Ebony
We usually hear about the awful things that happen to female subs, but we rarely hear what happens to male subs, at the hands of Dom/mes. I also have a friend (Domme) who was almost killed by one of her subs.
I hear the male side because I only deal with male submissives. I have talked to several males who were in bondage and beaten senseless by female dominants they placed their trust in.
Abuse under the guise of D/s may be more prevalent than we would like to think. That is why this thread and some of the others lists have an important function. We must educate subs and Dom/mes alike to recognise what is acceptable and what is criminal before law enforcement does it for us.
I applaud every person who has the courage to tell their own story so that others can avoid the same fate.
Ebony
SpectreT
Knight in Tarnished Armor
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2001
- Posts
- 1,905
cym, I see and understand what you're saying. You're discussing a conscious, temporary abandonment of "I am", in favor of "I will", or maybe "I must". I even grasp what I believe Pure was trying to say; similar, but not the sam as what you've said. But the kind of thing you're discussing is forging, not breaking. Creating a stronger bond, and a stronger will, through endurance of what others may call adversity. (BTW, I no longer consider nipple clamps 'barbaric". Small binder clips, on the other hand......<shudder> 
)
What was being railed against was the shattering of will and the destruction of bonds. There's no reconciling the two, even if they look like similar processes. Re-heat good steel until it glows red, then quick-quench it in water. You've got the metallic equivalent of peanut brittle on your hands. A similar technique, applied to iron and molybdenum or chromium, or some other metal I can't remember, will make a strong and beautiful steel; perfect for a sword. (told you most of my skills were useless in this modern age. I can make or use a sword, bake tasty bread from wheat or corn flower, build a barn that'll last, the list goes on.)
(edited to add postscript)
Oh, and cym? I wouldn't call mine a tremendous will. I have my weaknesses and vices, my fears and doubts and things I'll never get past without help. I'm human. Despite "I am" being my rallying cry, and my salvation against inner demons; there's a time to acknowledge a higher power. As every submissive knows, that takes a different strength.
)What was being railed against was the shattering of will and the destruction of bonds. There's no reconciling the two, even if they look like similar processes. Re-heat good steel until it glows red, then quick-quench it in water. You've got the metallic equivalent of peanut brittle on your hands. A similar technique, applied to iron and molybdenum or chromium, or some other metal I can't remember, will make a strong and beautiful steel; perfect for a sword. (told you most of my skills were useless in this modern age. I can make or use a sword, bake tasty bread from wheat or corn flower, build a barn that'll last, the list goes on.
)(edited to add postscript)
Oh, and cym? I wouldn't call mine a tremendous will. I have my weaknesses and vices, my fears and doubts and things I'll never get past without help. I'm human. Despite "I am" being my rallying cry, and my salvation against inner demons; there's a time to acknowledge a higher power. As every submissive knows, that takes a different strength.
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DustyWolfe
Proud Transman
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2002
- Posts
- 6,458
cymbidia said:
Wow, where to start....
I guess that the best I can say is that the worst thing she did to me, worse than even the pain she caused me was taking away the "I am". As well as the humiliation.
When Jen first met me I was an empty shell, devoid of feelings and understanding of life in general. I did what K did when she told me to do it and exactly how she did it. Yes, even that has impact on me because I have a terrible time making decisions on my own. In fact, it's so hard that I would just rather be told what to do.
She hurt me in ways unimaginable, to the point where I was plotting her demise just so that I could get away and not be fearful any longer. I almost killed myself on a few occassions and would likely be dead if not for Jen. She has been my saviour of sorts and I will forever be in debt to her.
You know... I have thought about the term broken in terms of myself. And though I don't like it, it is very true. I've felt like damaged goods and often wondered why Jen or anyone would want to be with me. But then I stop and think, Yes... I am broken. But things that are broken can be mended. Things that are worth saving that is... And since I am here, I was obviously worth saving.
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CarolineOh
Newbie Phase Two
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2002
- Posts
- 4,762
Spectre, cym, Dusty, thank you for your openness and bravery on this issue. I think it is important that novices like myself neither venture into exploration of bdsm wearing rose colored glasses, nor be scared away by horror stories. To hear of how others have overcome bad experiences and still perservered in finding their place in the lifestyle is of enormous value to us all.
And Jen, you are a heroine, girl
And Jen, you are a heroine, girl
Ysandre
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Posts
- 335
I am broken.
I know now that I am broken. I didn't accept I was broken until about 2 months ago. But I do accept that I am broken now.
My trouble is I knew what I was getting into. I had done the research. I was trained originally by a beautiful woman that chained me to a pedastel. I still hold her in high regard, she is the reason I'm on this board. I was held in the highest regard, and I was prized for my training. And I let it go to my head.
I found a Gorean Master. One that I wasn't ready for, and I admit that now. But in my arrogance, I thought I could handle it. And I did for 5 years.
We loved each other for a while. I know I did. I had to, the only way to let someone do those kinds of things to you is to be in love with them.
And it got steadily more and more cruel. After 5 years and a hospital trip, a dear friend notified someone in a local organization here about the abuse and they literally kidnapped me out of my Master's house.
That kidnapping saved my life. Literally. At first I didn't know what was worse. To be in that house of cruelty, or out of it.
For the longest time I didn't want to accept that what he'd done was abuse because it had been setup as part of the lifestyle. It got too hard for me to recognize when enough was enough. And now I am afraid to play at all because I don't recognize it.
With all the talk of what breaks a sub? Can I ask what would fix one?
I know now that I am broken. I didn't accept I was broken until about 2 months ago. But I do accept that I am broken now.
My trouble is I knew what I was getting into. I had done the research. I was trained originally by a beautiful woman that chained me to a pedastel. I still hold her in high regard, she is the reason I'm on this board. I was held in the highest regard, and I was prized for my training. And I let it go to my head.
I found a Gorean Master. One that I wasn't ready for, and I admit that now. But in my arrogance, I thought I could handle it. And I did for 5 years.
We loved each other for a while. I know I did. I had to, the only way to let someone do those kinds of things to you is to be in love with them.
And it got steadily more and more cruel. After 5 years and a hospital trip, a dear friend notified someone in a local organization here about the abuse and they literally kidnapped me out of my Master's house.
That kidnapping saved my life. Literally. At first I didn't know what was worse. To be in that house of cruelty, or out of it.
For the longest time I didn't want to accept that what he'd done was abuse because it had been setup as part of the lifestyle. It got too hard for me to recognize when enough was enough. And now I am afraid to play at all because I don't recognize it.
With all the talk of what breaks a sub? Can I ask what would fix one?
