About wannabes and broken subs – Hecate spilling her poison

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Hello Voetstep, glad to see you posting. We've got a wonderful
Library here on the BDSM Board that has all sorts of great information to guide you on your journey. I've found that Wizard's link thread is especially popular. It's located in the obvious place *chuckle*, the Link category. It's simply loaded with links to all kinds of BDSM related sites. He checks them periodically to make sure they are still up and running.

Good luck on your journey and again, welcome!

~anelize, "your friendly neighborhood submissive librarian"

/shameless library plug over lol/

 

[Richard49]

Rereading this thread brought back memories of my ealy days
here at lit ..........

However i also find comfort that my beliefs have not changed
on this subject......

 

[Guest]

It's great to have a thread that is so instructive and informative.

My thanks to all those who contributed and continue to add their thoughts.

 

[joiphulone]

just a much needed bump for an excellent thread......

 

[rosco rathbone]

My cranky take on this:

There are no such things as "wannabes" in the world of sexuality. You might have more or less talent, attractiveness or flair, but if you are "here" in this world it is cause you wanna be.

Yesyes, poseurs with their half baked ideas threaten the safety of clueless subs, yawn.

It's all shite. Everyone is responsible for their own safety. Once we agree on that basic point, what is left of the "dangerous wannabe" argument?

Learn your BDSM. Watch your back. Use your head and common sense and 6th sense and street sense. This whole "wannabe" thing is a pickup line and always has been.

I've spoken.

 

[Netzach]

My cranky take on this:

There are no such things as "wannabes" in the world of sexuality. You might have more or less talent, attractiveness or flair, but if you are "here" in this world it is cause you wanna be.

Yesyes, poseurs with their half baked ideas threaten the safety of clueless subs, yawn.

It's all shite. Everyone is responsible for their own safety. Once we agree on that basic point, what is left of the "dangerous wannabe" argument?

Learn your BDSM. Watch your back. Use your head and common sense and 6th sense and street sense. This whole "wannabe" thing is a pickup line and always has been.

I've spoken.

Do I hear an amen?

Dangerous wannabe used to be called a dangerous Top, I think.

There are a lot of dangerous bottoms, too.

Being a danger to yourself doesn't always implicate the Top. A guy who says "I like trampling, stand on my trachea" will find someone, eventually, who will do that for him, and may die.

The problem are the legions of people with NO common sense whatsoever who have found their way towards the SM community via these awesome pixellated communities.

I don't know where they come from, some of them, you'd think grew up in bubbles. That's the thing, finding SM used to necessitate a complex, intimidating, and not-always-anonymous walk to the weird side of town. A walk that fewer people every day seem to feel the need to take.

I've always taken responsibility for my experiences and for how things play out for me sexually, as a Top and as a bottom. When shitty things happened to me, as a bottom, I had *always* allowed them to happen. You don't know your limits and likes until you really do meet your dislikes and disinterests head on.

I see the "bad Dom" paradigm much the way I see the date rape paradigm. There are some dangerous motherfuckers who should have their balls kicked in out there, metaphorically in the case of women, but the same.

There are also a lot of people who decide a few days later they didn't like that they agreed to something... and need someone else to blame.

 

[Kajira Callista]

you hit the nail on the head there with the "I don't know where they come from, some of them, you'd think grew up in bubbles. That's the thing, finding SM used to necessitate a complex, intimidating, and not-always-anonymous walk to the weird side of town. A walk that fewer people every day seem to feel the need to take."
wanting to be doesnt mean you should sit behind a computer (Same as growing up in bubble) and pretend to be, it means you need to learn and to do so you can find out if you are...in real life using all of your senses. not with words that come from your fingertips.

*hides behind Netzach and Uncle Rosco*

 

[Hajar]

. A walk that fewer people every day seem to feel the need to take."
wanting to be doesnt mean you should sit behind a computer (Same as growing up in bubble) and pretend to be, it means you need to learn and to do so you can find out if you are...in real life using all of your senses. not with words that come from your fingertips.

*hides behind Netzach and Uncle Rosco*

I agree with this, in our short journey into this lifestyle, I've met quite a few net lifers who have never went to a RL munch, never seen a scene, never played with a real toy, yet call themselves sir/lord/slave.
And while you can learn some online, the truth is in the actions, how can you say you have limits when they've never been tested, how can you be a pain slut, who's never tasted a flogger/cane, how can you teach when you never been taught ?this frightens me, as many of them are quick to impart their version of the "truth" of what ever play the convo is about.

It took months for us to be ready to take that "walk" to go to our first meeting and for us it is an integral part of learning, of meeting ppl who can teach us on our journey.
This can't be replaced by the net, the foundations taught by those who have been here is priceless

my 2 cents

 

[rosco rathbone]

I agree with this, in our short journey into this lifestyle, I've met quite a few net lifers who have never went to a RL munch, never seen a scene, never played with a real toy, yet call themselves sir/lord/slave.

This is missing the point entirely, IMHO.

Like I said, you might have lots of experience with torture tools--or none. You might be able to command lil subbies to have "multiple O's" with the power of your mind--or you might just sit around jacking off at pictures of bound women while never having tied a knot in your life. You might be a master, or only WANT to be one---and therein lies the rub.

In this world, "wanting" makes you real; since we deal with desire and nothing but. It does not make you talented, it does not make you experienced, it does not make you desireable.

It's like being an artist: if you say you are one, if you feel yourself to be one--then you are. You might have no skill, you might have no will, but on the other hand; maybe you do and it is just waiting to pop out. Desire, emotion and creativity are what is at stake here; not things quantifiable "by number weight and measure"*.

*William Blake

 

[shy slave]

Oh my goodness a few days on holiday and i come back to find I am agreeing with uncle Rosco!!!

Can thias be true, How will I cope??

Does it make me a wannabe Domme (skilled without will or vice-versa)??!!

 

[Hajar]

This is missing the point entirely, IMHO.

Like I said, you might have lots of experience with torture tools--or none. You might be able to command lil subbies to have "multiple O's" with the power of your mind--or you might just sit around jacking off at pictures of bound women while never having tied a knot in your life. You might be a master, or only WANT to be one---and therein lies the rub.

In this world, "wanting" makes you real; since we deal with desire and nothing but. It does not make you talented, it does not make you experienced, it does not make you desireable.

It's like being an artist: if you say you are one, if you feel yourself to be one--then you are. You might have no skill, you might have no will, but on the other hand; maybe you do and it is just waiting to pop out. Desire, emotion and creativity are what is at stake here; not things quantifiable "by number weight and measure"*.

*William Blake

I understand your point.
*My beef is with those who can but refuse to learn*
I guess I'm looking at the fact even in their want they refuse to step outside of the buffer of the internet, and while for them it might sustain them, they tend to pollute those who meet them with their views.
while teaching or rather imparting their ignorance to others, when the say I've been in the lifestyle for 5 years, and I find that the novice not knowing what they meant was; I've spent 5 years posting on message boards and reading Castle Realm, so I don't know if this is safe, but if I could I would do this, is left with the idea that this person really knows what they are talking about, and as with Lit and many other boards that comradery comes, and they trust the person.
Further more when they step into real life, they don't want to learn from others, and I see that as a danger.
I feel strongly on this, I'm sorry, one of the first groups I joined I had to deal with an internet dom who wanted to take it to real life, and badgered me, even with me coming with a Top he asked to borrow me, a bottom with no training and no idea what was what, because we were novices he wanted to pray on that.
But I understand that for many their want will be all they can have for many reasons, and that in no way cheapens their love and respect for the lifestyle.
In my view the "want" propels you, it's the catalyst.
But the desire for more must be there, to take it to the real life, even if you can't.
I hope this makes sense

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by rosco rathbone
My cranky take on this:

There are no such things as "wannabes" in the world of sexuality. You might have more or less talent, attractiveness or flair, but if you are "here" in this world it is cause you wanna be.

Yesyes, poseurs with their half baked ideas threaten the safety of clueless subs, yawn.

It's all shite. Everyone is responsible for their own safety. Once we agree on that basic point, what is left of the "dangerous wannabe" argument?

Learn your BDSM. Watch your back. Use your head and common sense and 6th sense and street sense. This whole "wannabe" thing is a pickup line and always has been.

I've spoken.

Rosco, you old curmudgeon.

I agree with some of what you say here but not with the core of your argument: "There are no such things as "wannabes" in the world of sexuality. "

Would you mind telling who or what all those girls I met in college were, the ones who claimed in such strident true-believer tones to be "100% lesbian for life," but then five or ten years later were married to a man and had his babies? If that was not sexual wannabe-ism, because the self-described "lesbian" was attracted to the coolness of the culture or the desire to belong to the same social group a valued friend belonged to rather than because she felt heat at the sight of a pair of tits and a cunt, than I will eat that hat in your avatar!

I think it's a given that some people are always going to be attracted to certain forms of sexuality for reasons other than simple desire.


" Everyone is responsible for their own safety."

Ah, the olde Libertarian-Mad-Max view of S&M. The trouble with this sort of idea is that it sounds really, reasonable...until you start to explore the ramifications. People should get their shit together, develop common sense, use street smarts. learn the scene, etc. to keep themselves as safe as possible, especially submissives, since their sexual needs compel them so strongly to place themselves in situations of physical helplessness or emotional vulnerability. All very fine and well. But far too often the insistence that everybody is a totally responsible loner, completely in control of whether they are killed or hurt badly in the persual of their needs (I was about to say "eat or be eaten" but that sounds a little strange in a sexual context) is used to justify tearing down the normal protections and safeguards that virtually any group or society orginally creates to defend and protect _all_ of its members, especially thouse who are not perfect self-sufficient specimins. (You know, don't you, that if all submissives were perfect, self-sufficent mad-max type specimins, completely capable of insuring their own safety at all times and never capable of doing anything irrational or self-destrutive, you probably find them completely lacking in allure.)

The point is, if everybody really were responsible for their own safety, we wouldn't have crimimal laws, we wouldn't have laws against corporate rapciousness, we wouldn't have mandatory hurricane evacuations....and, we wouldn't have one-tenth as complex and sophisticated a culture as we have now, as that kind of culture is imposible to maintain in an anarchic frontier-world when everybody must spend most of their time insuring their own physical survivial, rather than making art, writing books, building bridges, producin movies, sending up satallites, etc. If your goal is that sort of complex and rich civilization, than your slogan has pretty much "Everybody has the right to be safe and the groups they belong to are more or less responsible for insuring that safety."

--Taint Has Spoken.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Rosco, you old curmudgeon.

I agree with some of what you say here but not with the core of your argument: "There are no such things as "wannabes" in the world of sexuality. "

Would you mind telling who or what all those girls I met in college were, the ones who claimed in such strident true-believer tones to be "100% lesbian for life," but then five or ten years later were married to a man and had his babies? If that was not sexual wannabe-ism, because the self-described "lesbian" was attracted to the coolness of the culture or the desire to belong to the same social group a valued friend belonged to rather than because she felt heat at the sight of a pair of tits and a cunt, than I will eat that hat in your avatar!

I think it's a given that some people are always going to be attracted to certain forms of sexuality for reasons other than simple desire.


" Everyone is responsible for their own safety."

Ah, the olde Libertarian-Mad-Max view of S&M. The trouble with this sort of idea is that it sounds really, reasonable...until you start to explore the ramifications. People should get their shit together, develop common sense, use street smarts. learn the scene, etc. to keep themselves as safe as possible, especially submissives, since their sexual needs compel them so strongly to place themselves in situations of physical helplessness or emotional vulnerability. All very fine and well. But far too often the insistence that everybody is a totally responsible loner, completely in control of whether they are killed or hurt badly in the persual of their needs (I was about to say "eat or be eaten" but that sounds a little strange in a sexual context) is used to justify tearing down the normal protections and safeguards that virtually any group or society orginally creates to defend and protect _all_ of its members, especially thouse who are not perfect self-sufficient specimins. (You know, don't you, that if all submissives were perfect, self-sufficent mad-max type specimins, completely capable of insuring their own safety at all times and never capable of doing anything irrational or self-destrutive, you probably find them completely lacking in allure.)

The point is, if everybody really were responsible for their own safety, we wouldn't have crimimal laws, we wouldn't have laws against corporate rapciousness, we wouldn't have mandatory hurricane evacuations....and, we wouldn't have one-tenth as complex and sophisticated a culture as we have now, as that kind of culture is imposible to maintain in an anarchic frontier-world when everybody must spend most of their time insuring their own physical survivial, rather than making art, writing books, building bridges, producin movies, sending up satallites, etc. If your goal is that sort of complex and rich civilization, than your slogan has pretty much "Everybody has the right to be safe and the groups they belong to are more or less responsible for insuring that safety."

--Taint Has Spoken.

Get out of my toy universe, you!

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by rosco rathbone
Get out of my toy universe, you!

Uh... define "your" universe.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

...

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by AngelicAssassin
...

Heh.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Uh... define "your" universe.

All this....stuff...*gestures vaguely about*...is mine. BUt I don't want it any more. The puppets will not do as i say.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Heh.

Exactly.

Neither have a clue.

Just more sheep following the herd waiting for culling.

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by AngelicAssassin
Exactly.

Neither have a clue.

Just more sheep following the herd waiting for culling.

Well, actually I wasn't making a political statement. Just getting goofy with your button. I think the idea of someone "evolving" his penis is pretty funny, though. I wonder what it would entail?

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Well, actually I wasn't making a political statement.

Neither did i. Politics usually entails bullshit lies and half-truths. i pretty much laid my hand on the table.

I think the idea of someone "evolving" his penis is pretty funny, though. I wonder what it would entail?

Hard to tell considering the extreme case of eunuchs.

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by AngelicAssassin
Hard to tell considering the extreme case of eunuchs.

LOL! You got me there!

On the other hand, I just learned today from a book on tobacco that the hard-to-pronounce Incan name for the very highest king or head honcho in their ancient society literally translates into "Sky Penis." I wonder if a man who gets called "sky penis" is one of those "evolved" souls?

 

[snowy ciara]

On the other hand, I just learned today from a book on tobacco that the hard-to-pronounce Incan name for the very highest king or head honcho in their ancient society literally translates into "Sky Penis." I wonder if a man who gets called "sky penis" is one of those "evolved" souls?

Oh yeah, old Huiracocha.. I was wondering whatever happened to him..

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by snowy ciara
Oh yeah, old Huiracocha.. I was wondering whatever happened to him..

If I ever run into him, I'll tell him an "old flame" was asking after him.

So...does his live up to his name?

 

[catalina_francisco]

WARNING: Hecate rambling, stay clear if you have an own opinion!

Let me say how wonderful I find this new little corner of Lit – and let me say how utterly amazed I am about the number of posts and hits in such a short time. It does show me that there is a huge interest in BDSM and related topics – or at least a basic curiosity as to what it is all about. GREAT! Really really wonderful and encouraging to see we can talk and maybe even are listened to as we try to take the prejudices and dust off our likes.
But … (oh didn’t you just wait for that “but”? ) … there have been a few posts scattered all over the place that made me feel like lifting some issues to an own thread.

As stated in the title – one of them is

wannabes

I have read the term wannabes on some thread of the board and I read it used in the sense of “newbie” (not much better, I know). Let me clarify my understanding of wannabe in the BDSM context and I think it is clear we are talking two pairs of shoes here !

A wannabe – as the word indicates is someone who “wants to be” but isn’t what he/she pretends to be (yet).

There are different levels of being a “wannabe” - one is that you are new to something, so in the sense of the word you “want to be” a part of a group, sport, lifestyle .. whatever it is you are starting to wet your toes with. But strange enough this is not the kind of person/situation I link to being a “wannabe”. Because that kind of person will be part of whatever it is he/she wants to be part of in no time when a genuine interest is shown. And poof – before you know it you are becoming a new but integrated part of the new group. You may be a newbie *chuckles* but nobody will tell you you are a wannabe.

Now we have those who do NOT have a genuine interest in learning, understanding and integrating into the group they are sticking their feet in. They will remain on such a superficial level that they never will get over the “wanting to be” – stage. Those people – and let me now slide from general approach to the BDSM scene – are what I can not really tolerate very well, specially on the internet, where it is hard to distinguish at first between a nice front put up to deceive and the reality behind it. Specially in the BDSM environment I find that not only to be devious but dangerous. Specially when those however aquired semi-truths and notions are passed on as “knowledge” and experience, when there is no real interest in delving into the depth of all the different facets and sides of BDSM.

There is damage that can be done – there are people involved and feelings to be hurt – doing that under the cover of BDSM I take as a personal attack to something that I hold in high esteem and dear to my heart. There is no excuse whatsoever to show abusive (and I mean no “play-abusive” but the serious kind) behavioral patterns under the cover of being a Dom/me. People that use BDSM as a cover for a quick and careless lay, additionally to the mental damage to a trusting sub, maybe even causing physical pain (and in this case I mean pain and not sensation), those are the “wannabes” I am talking about. People who are simply craving pain but do not really feel like letting anyone else be in charge, people who do pretend to be submissive just to find a caring Dominant to dedicate time to them and their sexual pleasure but in reality just seek a little “extra kick” to get over some kind of boredom for a while or because they think it is “in” to be into BDSM, never exploring their real motivations, needs and desires but passing that on to someone else, those are wannabes in my book.

There is nothing wrong with needing sensation for pleasure – even without submitting – but then say so! There is nothing wrong with experimenting on the sub side – but let the other party know it is for the time being just that – an experiment! Do not (and here we have one of the downsides of the internet) pretend to be something you are not, be it Dominant or submissive!

There is no fault in being new to something and saying so openly to get assistance and guidance if wanted – or simply inspiration if needed. Everyone was new to most things at some stage and if we had let others drive us away from those interests by feeling intimidated by those with more experience we never would learn. So please, everyone out there being new to BDSM – you are NOT a “wannabe” in my book! Not as long as you crave to learn and grow and not only scratch the surface of things to then run off and pretend to be a “Master of your trade” after only the slightest glimpse of things!

So let me say again – someone honestly trying to learn or at least inform themselves may be NEW but is not a “wannabe” (read: pretender)! You are a novice Dom/me or a novice sub, but by taking the step to learn and inform yourself you are past wannabe-stage already and as valid a “member of the club” as are any of us and I invite you all in to learn, explore and share the discoveries of your journey.

That said – and hey, you are still reading it seems … let me swap to the topic of


“breaking a sub”

In case you are reading this and don’t know me – I am a Domme (mostly anyway), and a bisexual one as well. (Talk about options here *winks*)

My submissive is more than my pet (oh yes, she is that too but ...) she is my lover and my friend. She is a most precious jewel that I wear in my “crown” - she sparkles and shines from deep within her, has that special glow that I adore about her. Why am I telling you all this?

Because the moment I would “break” her all that would be gone. There is no sparkle in a shattered and chipped diamond!

Breaking a sub – doesn’t it sound horrible (I can kinda hear the bones crack as I imagine a broken spine)?

Well, for some this is seemingly a challenge, one of the “greater aims” of domination. Sorry, but for me those people have just read a few too many fantasy novels about the subject it seems!

Let me take a detour and try to explain my understanding of breaking someone.

If you have managed to instill fear (physical or emotional) to such an extend into a person so that he/she will do whatever you tell them, without wondering if it is good for them, then someone is broken.

If you have managed to dissolve a feeling of “I am” in someone, so that this person can no longer define themselves and their position in the world without you telling them who they are and what they should do, then you have broken someone.

In my deep inner conviction we are always bound to the principle of safe, sane and consensual. Can breaking someone be consensual? We even might get into a discussion about that if you really stretch the limit of that word – but sane!? No fucking way!

BDSM is for me something to make each of the participants richer, stronger and more settled in who and what they are. If someone decides that they derive maximum pleasure from pleasing their Dom/me, fine – it is a gift gladly accepted. If they feel more secure in the knowledge there is someone they can lean on and someone they can orient their value system at – fine, as long as this is chosen by free will, just as I have seen it happen in non-BDSM relations too.

But if it results in a total loss of personal dignity (not during a limited scene, mind you – it can be thrilling in specific settings as a part of humiliation scening) and self-worth perspective even out of scene then I am having a serious case of breaking a spirit! Even more so if an experienced Dominant uses all the knowledge of physical and mental influence to push the submissive over that point.

If a Dom/me uses his/her powers to get a sub to exactly that point of self-neglect, making the sub a quivering wreck that only nurtures on the approval/disapproval of the Dominant then things are definitely being taken to far – way too far. Please All – realize that this is REAL, this is not some Gorean Fantasy book or the world of Sleeping Beauty! This is scarring/harming people for life in the worst of cases!

Again, if you don’t know me you may not jet have come across my rosebush-analogy. Never mind – it was written in my early days but still holds much of my conviction... in short: Consider a sub a rose bush and the Dom/me the gardener. A rose is a rose and will remain a rose. The gardener now tries to give it what it needs, water and warmth – and eventually something to hold on to, maybe he ties the rose into an intricate pattern so that it enhances the beauty of the blossoms and pleases him even more. But if the gardener tries too hard to make anything else from it but a rose or bends or cuts it down too much the rose will not bloom to the fullest, it even may die.
If you choose your sub why choose something you do not really want and try to forge it into something different?
If I want daisies instead of roses I can’t get anything but disappointed by the most splendid rose, and no matter what I do to it, it will never be what I seek. Will it be a daisy after I have broken the stem or ripped off the petals? NO!

We are not living in the dark barbaric times of ages past. Our “slaves” are so by free will – we need not force them into our service anymore. They are not seeking to get us killed for their own freedom, they do not refuse to serve us because they never had another choice and are rebelling.

We need not break spirits for our safety – and we should not break spirits for our “pleasure” – that is NOT BDSM, that is - to put it politely – disturbing!

We are in our times talking about a (mainly erotic based) relation of trust when we talk about dominance and submission. Our slaves/subs/lovers made a choice – a free, sane and consensual one, to be wearing our collar and chains in the first place. I for one intend to treasure that gift. I want my darling pet to grow, to develop – but not to change her personality, I love her for exactly that personality. I want her to fight me if she isn’t happy with what goes on – I do not want her to take all I dish out in a demure destructive way. BDSM is about fulfilling needs – of BOTH parties involved.

And even if we are not about love relations, don’t we choose our play partners for their personality, because they either complement us, or challenge us or whatever else we are seeking at the time? It is all about fun basically, about pleasure! And I simply enjoy it much more knowing there are the both of us having a good time (call me a Softie-Domme if you like). If my approach to BDSM is not for a particular sub then we shouldn’t be playing.


Well – if you made it till here I thank you for “listening” - you are now free to do with my opinion whatever you like (and be thankful I am running out of time right now since I could spill my poison on some topics for a long time). In case you wonder why I made a new thread of it - I simply couldn’t find one where to slip it in without it a) getting lost or b) disturbing the present dynamics of the thread.

And now to really piss you off all I said above in two sentences *weg* (you! – aren’t you a masochist subbie? Then stop complaining! )

a) “Welcome” to all who came to this corner to wet their toes on a subject they want to learn about – “watch your step” to all those who are seeking a “guide to abusive sexual behavior under the cover of BDSM”

b) BDSM is a delicate matter, physically and emotionally, and it has to be treated with respect and integrity if you want it to be a pleasant and fulfilling journey for all parties involved, following the rules of safe, sane and consensual

Just one of Hecate's moments of sharing...great thread.

Catalina

 

[Oblivion_Night]

wonderful words, hecate

I am a newbie here, fascinated by the BDSM lifestyle and eager to learn more. I have been fascinated for quite some time, but I am only now emerging to post and reach out to the BDSM community. The reason I waited is that I was afraid of the sub-abuse issues that hecate discussed at the beginning of this section. I have no intention of becoming someone's slave, not that I think there is anything wrong with that, but simply because I think I am more of a dom or a switch than a sub. So, for me, there is little risk of being "broken" as a sub, but I did not want to associate with a community that routinely did that to people. The central tenet of BDSM play, it seems to me, should be that it brings pleasure and fulfillment to BOTH parties and makes them richer as individuals. If I ever become a dom, I could never forget that that central tenet. Well spoken, hecate, and thank you for reassuring me that any responsible BDSM community will not tolerate abuse. I would love to hear from anyone who has thoughts or advice to offer.