About wannabes and broken subs – Hecate spilling her poison

[DustyWolfe]

I am broken.
I know now that I am broken. I didn't accept I was broken until about 2 months ago. But I do accept that I am broken now.

My trouble is I knew what I was getting into. I had done the research. I was trained originally by a beautiful woman that chained me to a pedastel. I still hold her in high regard, she is the reason I'm on this board. I was held in the highest regard, and I was prized for my training. And I let it go to my head.
I found a Gorean Master. One that I wasn't ready for, and I admit that now. But in my arrogance, I thought I could handle it. And I did for 5 years.
We loved each other for a while. I know I did. I had to, the only way to let someone do those kinds of things to you is to be in love with them.
And it got steadily more and more cruel. After 5 years and a hospital trip, a dear friend notified someone in a local organization here about the abuse and they literally kidnapped me out of my Master's house.

That kidnapping saved my life. Literally. At first I didn't know what was worse. To be in that house of cruelty, or out of it.
For the longest time I didn't want to accept that what he'd done was abuse because it had been setup as part of the lifestyle. It got too hard for me to recognize when enough was enough. And now I am afraid to play at all because I don't recognize it.

With all the talk of what breaks a sub? Can I ask what would fix one?

May I put in my two cents here?

Mending the human mind is a daunting task, that requires time patience and love. To become unbroken you need to feel a sense of worth. You need to feel loved by someone and that you are important. I'm not saying that this someone has to be a Domme/me or a lover. Just a friend, someone that wil sit with you and help you through your darkest moments, offer you a shoulder to cry and words of encouragement. Someone to build you up and make you feel better about yourself, tell you it's not your fault.

You can play again, but with the right person. May I say however though, that given your situation you should never play with anyone that you have not seen play. Test them, if there are the oppurtunities then ask them to play in public. Any Domme/me worth their salt will play in public even if they are a bit shy. Those who refuse are generally abusive and will ignore safewords/colors.

Back to the prized possession comment you made. There is nothing wrong with knowing that you are your someone's prized possession provided it does not get to your head. Knowing that I AM Jen's prized possession and that she values me greatly is part of the reason I am still here. It's also part of the reason why I have not been abusive to myself. After many years of slicing myself up as a punishment or to make me actually feel something physical instead of emotional numbness by cutting I have almost stopped. I've cut twice since I was rescued from my abuser. The reason I have quit is because Jen points out that I am damaging what she values. Same goes for cutting myself down, I should not devalue what she values.

Feeling valued is good. You need that. You need someone to sit down with you and tell you how special you are to them. NO, it's not your fault that you got into a bad situation. You were still a novice so to speak. Might you make the same mistake again? Possibly so, but then again maybe not. Because you have these boards and you can reach out and ask for help if you need it.

Do you have any means of support in your life? Someone to love you?

I think the best medicine for me has been Jen telling me over and over again that I am safe. That I am worthy of having love and other good things in my life. That I am valuable and that she loves me unconditionally, no matter what I do or say she is not going to leave me, or hurt me in anyone. She makes me feel important, and needed. She needs to talk to me to get through the day. (if not her eldest daughter tells her to call me because she is too grouchy lol). Jen makes me write about what I am feeling. We also have a couple of sexual role plays, and I have incorporated some of my abuse into them, and even killed the abuser in my role plays. Made me feel so much better.

Am I off on what I am saying? Does this help at all?
If you ever need to talk you can email me or contact me via one of the messenger services in my profile. Though until mid June I only have access to yahoo and AIM...

 

[ShyGuy68]

Dustygrrl

I have just read your tale about what have happened to you with the woman you were with before.

I can't start to say how shocked I was about the way she threated you, and I'm truely sorry that you had such a bad experience with her.

I'm also relieved that you have found a safe harbor in Jen, and that she's helping you to find your "I" again!

I for one would never take things that far at all. Yes I haven't tried much at all in real life when it comes to D/s, but I do know that it's a special gift I get when a woman submit to me. So I honor that gift, and when we aren't playing, I treat her like an equal, and also pamper her a bit when I get around to it.

D/s is important to me, but it's not something that I think I would like 24/7. I also like the "nilla" stuff, like holding hands, laying arm in arm, cuddling up together in front of an tv, and kissing over and over again. That's just something that's so very important to me as well, and it also makes me feel so good.

Dusty I wish you the best in the future, and hope that you'll have a rapid healing.

Be well

 

[Ysandre]

Dustygrrl

Thanks for your encouraging words.
I will take them to heart.
It has only been five months since I was out of the house, so I'm sure as soon as the rest of the bruises, and the rest of the bones heal I'll find a way to look cute enough to find someone who can love me.
I have support right now thru school. I have sunk myself into my studies and locked the rest of the world out for a bit. If I can find a better direction in life, I think I'll try it.

I love the lifestyle, won't put it down, won't disrespect it, I found it's the absolute most perfect way to get inside your head and learn about yourself and others.

I think after 5 years of Gorean, I am going to stop playing for a while. I deserve it. I dont trust myself as a Domme, and I certainly can't sub. So my sex life will be celibate and online for a while. Maybe in the future I can learn to role play again. Get some of the aggression out.

 

[cellis]

Dusty, I am so proud of you for having the courage to discuss this issue in this forum. Abuse is never an easy thing to talk about. You have discussed it with courage and class. I applaud the steps you have taken recently towards healing.

Ysandre, you too, have taken steps toward healing by talking about the abuse you have suffered as well. And I applaud you as well for the steps toward healing that you too have taken.

You two have no idea how difficult the steps you have taken are for some people. I worked with abused women for seven years and many of them could never admit to the abuse, let alone move forward and leave the situation.

It is a difficult task indeed to heal the broken soul, but it can be done. It might sound a little trite, but I believe that love, developing a new sense of self worth and believing in your own self are essential to healing the self, the "I am" that is damaged.

It is a long journey, and I encourage you both to put people in your life who will honor the person you are and are becoming. It can make all the difference. And when in doubt, check it out with others, until you can trust your own judgement again.

 

[Shiver]

I am so horrified and upset by some of the stories on this thread, especially the testimonies from the broken ones, which I'm sure was very difficult. Just as fringe political groups with legitimate points-of-view attract thugs who are just there to commit acts of violence behind the shield of "civil disobediance" so this lifestyle draws members who exercise a wanton disregard of and abusive tendencies toward others in the guise of "consensual" play. I can't think of words strong enough to express how abhorrent I find this.

Being a Domme is the greatest responsibility I've ever shouldered. I have to maintain a careful balance in going right up to the line of what my sub wants and needs and what I want and need without crossing it. Of course, the rewards are also the greatest I've achieved, so it's more than worth it.

Two things I want to mention. One is that I (and all Dom/mes) have to accept that there may be things that never happen as they do in our wildest fantasies. For instance, I love caning. I just love how the cane feels in my hand, the reaction from the sub, plus it fits in well with a lot of my favorite scenes. But... of the three subs I've had relationships with, none of them liked it, and two were strongly against it, even after a lot of discussion about trying to find very light canes and me holding back on the strokes. The third was willing to do it for me, but every time I took the cane out I could see him shutting down and mentally taking himself out of the scene, so I stopped. Disappointing? Of course. But the rest of the relationship was so positive and rewarding for us both, I considered it a small price to pay.

The second thing is that communication is very important. You need to discuss things with your sub all the time. I never let my subs just go home afterwards. We always took at least an hour to come down, clean up, and talk. I would always discuss (once we were mentally distanced from the scene) how it felt, what they liked and disliked, what they would like to do differently next time, without judgement. Lots of times they surprised me (pleasantly) with their suggestions. And I got a bead on things that might be damaging if I took it too far.

Of course, it was also during these discussions that I found out that two of them wanted to go back to college, and the third wanted to move back closer to his family (maybe I should pick subs who aren't so young... nah..!), but I always knew that was a possibility, and I'm glad I was able to hear it in that environment, instead of in a phone call or letter, or not at all.

Okay, going a bit far afield, here. Anyway, my point is that every sub deserves a Dom/me that cares about them at least as much as him- or herself, and it is our responsibility as Dom/mes to make it clear we distance ourselves from abusers who wear the mask of Dom/me.

 

[cymbidia]

My god, Shiver.
You're so literate.
Can i follow you around just to gaze adoringly at the way you use language?


I mean, ahem, i have a small problem with canes, too, so i can empathize with where your former subs were coming from on that subject. You did well in handling those fear-filled situations, though doubtless you know that already.

Welcome to the BDSM forum here at Lit.

 

[caspai]

Ysa,
I remember those events months ago and they still make me cry. I have seen you go through so much, and have even gotten you to laugh at the little ironies that life has thrown at you. Remember that first shopping list? And now where is it that you work?
You have come a long way from the person I first met. I know that you have a great distance yet to come, but I have seen the brave heart that you have. I can't pretend to know what the future holds for you, but know this, you are not alone, ever.

~Cas

 

[DustyWolfe]

Dustygrrl

I have just read your tale about what have happened to you with the woman you were with before.

I can't start to say how shocked I was about the way she threated you, and I'm truely sorry that you had such a bad experience with her.

I'm also relieved that you have found a safe harbor in Jen, and that she's helping you to find your "I" again!

I for one would never take things that far at all. Yes I haven't tried much at all in real life when it comes to D/s, but I do know that it's a special gift I get when a woman submit to me. So I honor that gift, and when we aren't playing, I treat her like an equal, and also pamper her a bit when I get around to it.

D/s is important to me, but it's not something that I think I would like 24/7. I also like the "nilla" stuff, like holding hands, laying arm in arm, cuddling up together in front of an tv, and kissing over and over again. That's just something that's so very important to me as well, and it also makes me feel so good.

Dusty I wish you the best in the future, and hope that you'll have a rapid healing.

Be well

I'm sorry that those things happened to me, but there is an upside to it. I was allowed to be online while I was with her and she introduced me to chat program that eventually led me to the roleplaying MUCK where I met Jen. So in a roundabout way, the abuse I suffered at her hands was worth it. If not for K I would have never met the most wonderful woman in the world.

Yes, Jen is helping me to find the I again, and she is building me up so that I grow stronger and stronger each week. I think I am making remarkable progress at this point. I'm growing more confident and believing in myself more. I've grown more assertive even and will politely tell her when I am not comfortable with something. (which is very seldom).

I'm becoming the biggest brat you've ever seen as well, but Jen loves it because she knows that I'm happy. When I'm happy I become bratty, something that many Dommes hate, but it just thrills her because she knows that this is the real me that was supressed for many years.

Thank you for your well wishes, they are very much appreciated as I continue to learn and grow.

 

[DustyWolfe]

Spectre, cym, Dusty, thank you for your openness and bravery on this issue. I think it is important that novices like myself neither venture into exploration of bdsm wearing rose colored glasses, nor be scared away by horror stories. To hear of how others have overcome bad experiences and still perservered in finding their place in the lifestyle is of enormous value to us all.
And Jen, you are a heroine, girl

Yes indeed, Jen is a true heroine. Jen has been through a lot herself and has helped many people in spite of it.

 

[DustyWolfe]

Re: Dustygrrl

Thanks for your encouraging words.
I will take them to heart.
It has only been five months since I was out of the house, so I'm sure as soon as the rest of the bruises, and the rest of the bones heal I'll find a way to look cute enough to find someone who can love me.
I have support right now thru school. I have sunk myself into my studies and locked the rest of the world out for a bit. If I can find a better direction in life, I think I'll try it.

I love the lifestyle, won't put it down, won't disrespect it, I found it's the absolute most perfect way to get inside your head and learn about yourself and others.

I think after 5 years of Gorean, I am going to stop playing for a while. I deserve it. I dont trust myself as a Domme, and I certainly can't sub. So my sex life will be celibate and online for a while. Maybe in the future I can learn to role play again. Get some of the aggression out.

Yes, I know what you mean. I have only been out a couple of months. I'm overweight now, I weigh 80 pounds more than I did when I moved in with K. BUT... I feel so loved and adored and confident that I get hit on right and left by other Domme's. I'm always being scammed on. And last night I had two femme subs wanting to undress me and pull me into the swimming pool with them. Was quite funny. I never got hit on when I was cute and skinny. I'm learning that cute is only a state of mind!!!

Perhaps one day you will be ready for the lifestyle again... Or not.. But as long as you are happy in life what does it matter?

Celibacy is good! It helps you to get your head together!

I hope that you continue to heal and become more comfortable with yourself... Be good to you!

 

[DustyWolfe]

Dusty, I am so proud of you for having the courage to discuss this issue in this forum. Abuse is never an easy thing to talk about. You have discussed it with courage and class. I applaud the steps you have taken recently towards healing.

Ysandre, you too, have taken steps toward healing by talking about the abuse you have suffered as well. And I applaud you as well for the steps toward healing that you too have taken.

You two have no idea how difficult the steps you have taken are for some people. I worked with abused women for seven years and many of them could never admit to the abuse, let alone move forward and leave the situation.

It is a difficult task indeed to heal the broken soul, but it can be done. It might sound a little trite, but I believe that love, developing a new sense of self worth and believing in your own self are essential to healing the self, the "I am" that is damaged.

It is a long journey, and I encourage you both to put people in your life who will honor the person you are and are becoming. It can make all the difference. And when in doubt, check it out with others, until you can trust your own judgement again.

Cellis, thank you. I can't wait to talk to you again on MSN when I get back home. Talking about this is very difficult for me. Yet it is also like a weight off my shoulders because I am not holding it in anymore. It's like a catharsis of sorts and it is helping me to know that maybe.. Just maybe what I say might help someone else.

I'm still working very hard to get back to where I need, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and that is very encouraging to me. I've made several big steps lately. Like letting people touch me for more than a hug.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Shiver

Welcome...I look forward to conversing with You here in Lit.

(Okay, going a bit far afield, here. Anyway, my point is that every sub deserves a Dom/me that cares about them at least as much as him- or herself, and it is our responsibility as Dom/mes to make it clear we distance ourselves from abusers who wear the mask of Dom/me.)

Beautiful, realistic, honest and caring.

I am watching this thread quietly and My empathy is sitting side by side with My pride in those letting go of yesterdays horrors to open the possibilities for tomorrows safety.

It is a long road from abuse to contentment. Been there done that in My own young marriage of abuse.

I have watched several excuses for Dom/mes hide behind their titles as they sought to destroy the very core of the ones they were meant to protect.

 

[Ebonyfire]

24/7

D/s is important to me, but it's not something that I think I would like 24/7. I also like the "nilla" stuff, like holding hands, laying arm in arm, cuddling up together in front of an tv, and kissing over and over again. That's just something that's so very important to me as well, and it also makes me feel so good.

What makes you think that 24/7 means never holding hands, lying arm in arm, cuddling up together in front of a TV, and kissing etc.?

Maybe there are some people who have relationships that are not romantic, in fact I know several.

However, in most of the 24/7 married relationships I know of, they do not live D/s everyday of every hour. They have jobs, they raise kids, some even belong to country clubs and play golf.

A D/s 24/7 relationship is whatever the two (or more if you are poly) make of it. And that means love if that is what you desire.

I love my slave tavish. And yes we have times when we are just this couple in love. We are still equals, partners. I just happen to own his ass.

Ebony

 

[RisiaSkye]

I'm going to throw a new log on the fire here:

Reading Dusty and cas's stories got me thinking about my own past, and it raises an interesting question for me:
Can one who's been broken in a non-BDSM context ever fully become sub?

I know that each person is different, but I also know that for me, submission has a limit built into it--while I understand Shiver's point, and it is well-taken, that level of submission in which one allows themselves to be reshaped in the eyes of another, to subsume their own will to that of another, is something that I cannot imagine. While I switch, I tend to the SAM model much more than a true D/s kind of submission--and it's not because I don't desire that kind of Domination on at least some levels, it's because I just cannot let it happen; and don't think I haven't tried.

I came to BDSM as a teenager, still reeling from years of physical, emotional, and intermittently sexual abuse. Without getting into the sordid details, I can say that I was systematically abused for sixteen years; to this day I carry significant physical scars from that abuse and have had surgery to repair some of the damage. I was, and in some ways still am, completely broken. I learned to love pain because I could not escape it, and only by embracing it could I learn to exist, and in some small way, to escape. By mastering my own response, and choosing not to beg for mercy from the merciless, I increasingly drew out of myself, to the point that I couldn't feel *anything* anymore--emotionally or physically. I sought my own annihlation in every way I could find--and my initial search for masochistic sex was just that--a way to disappear, to destroy what was left of the essential *I* by destroying my physical self, all that really remained. It was also a way to seek the punishment I thought I had earned by being essentially damaged or unfit.

Even now, many years and what feels like many lifetimes later, I do not think or feel that I have recaptured or rebuilt that part of myself which could trust someone completely enough to give them real power over the essential *I*. I trust, but it is always contingent. There is always a part of me in reserve, and that bothers me--largely because I love MasterMe (my husband, also Switch) and wish that I could offer him what I see as a "whole" person. Instead, I can only offer what I have, which is limited and largely constrained by the past I cannot undo.

I have learned over the years that I could take what I was given, and that I could choose to make what I learned in those experiences into something positive, something which generated joy and allowed me to feel again, though the learning of those lessons was not easy and the choice to change how I responded to them in the present was the hardest thing I've ever done (and continue to do, over and over again, constantly). But, I can't erase them, and I can't pretend that they didn't happen or that they don't both structure and limit the person I am today, and what I'm capable of becoming.

So I ask you: is it because I was a child that this is the case for me? Is it just me, and my own limitations as a spirit? Is this something that may yet change? And if it can change, can I ever fully submit without losing or undoing all the agonizing work it has taken to be me and be alive and feeling in the first place?

 

[Guest]

Posted by "Pure" (having probs logging in)
Thanks to Hecate for her thoughtful response. I will continue to deal with some of the same issues, but as raised in others' subsequent postings.

Risia wrote as quoted below about previous abuse to the point of deadened feeling, and being "broken," then a rebuilding of an essential "I"; she asks if she could now or in future fully submit withough losing that "I" and undoing her 'work', and that holding back is something she does now, protectively.

Dusty and Ysandre wrote movingly of long abuse, being broken down and so on. For these subs, 'breaking' is understood as breaking down or breaking apart. To a point of psychic non-functioning.

The 'will breaking' I was referring to is different in kind. Hence, though I don't presume to tell Risia what's in store or what's best, the process I refer to is, so to speak, on a different dimension or axis. Movement on it, does not affect the strength of the ordinary, functioning "I". If you consult the biography of Teresa of Avila, this is evident. Or, to use another analogy, if a recovered depressive person becomes an accomplished tragic actor, s/he does not become despairing and lose the gains.

But for the sake of clarity, I will speak of Re-Patterning as Subject ("RePasS") , instead of 'breaking.'

I did give one example from a story, and that's been objected to, but the slave in the story is based on a real figure, indeed one who has herself written and posted at literotica. Given the labels, I'm not sure she would come forward and be labelled as a psychic wreck, "broken" as a person, etc. It's hard to broaden the discussion if all the talk is of *wreckers and *wrecked (a bit like the problem of discussing 'sadism' if it's understood solely in the manner of Charles Ng).

The persons Dusty and Ysandre yielded to, seem to be destructive, even basically hostile individuals. D and Y, increasing lacking confidence, yielded, and received various injuries, psychic and physical, which have lasted a long time.

To be re-patterned is to have one's mind and spirit re-shaped, which means that first there is a "de" patterning, breaking down
(oops) of reaction patterns, such as rebelliousness in response to direction. The aim is not a quivering mass, though there are crises, but the intent is to re-pattern, lovingly, (re) forming, as it were, a subject, one whose essence is to serve, conform to and comply with a loving other's will and desires. This is not robot-hood, but neither is it Hecate's rose bush which merely undergoes some elegant twining of branches. Lovers have protested (i.e. announced) such subjection for centuries, "I am yours. Do with me what you will."

Which brings us back to what Freudians call, 'the choice of object.'
The 'objects' described by Dusty, Ysandre, and others are pititful individuals, somehow lacking in true security, and having to enforce, yes, a subjection, but Gengis Khan style: **one which is essentially hostile and even inimical to the life of the subject.** Further, these pseudoDoms intended to capitalize on any 'breaking down' and perpetuate a quivering or dead subjection. The aim to raise, re-form, or re-pattern a functioning being was not present, it being against the interest of the pseudoD. The ideal re-formed subject is to be a vital person, radiant in the sun of his/her master.

If one may return to the analogy of the potential race horse; once it's 'broken' to the saddle and rider, he is to learn to respond to the rider's commands with energy and spirit; that is the re-patterning. If urged forward, he does not even think of moving backward; if urged faster, he does not hesitate, and doesn't go slower even if his strength is sorely tested. This is not at all what a psycho torturer wants to do by arbirtrary brutality: on seeing a whip raised, have the horse cower in the corner of the stable, looking like the proverbial 'beaten dog.'

While the terrifying abuse stories have therapeutic and cautionary values, I hope the abuse and 'break down' concepts do not eclipse all others.

"Pure"

+++++++

[Risia wrote in part]
Without getting into the sordid details, I can say that I was systematically abused for sixteen years; to this day I carry significant physical scars from that abuse and have had surgery to repair some of the damage. I was, and in some ways still am, completely broken. I learned to love pain because I could not escape it, and only by embracing it could I learn to exist, and in some small way, to escape. By mastering my own response, and choosing not to beg for mercy from the merciless, I increasingly drew out of myself, to the point that I couldn't feel *anything* anymore--emotionally or physically. I sought my own annihlation in every way I could find--and my initial search for masochistic sex was just that--a way to disappear, to destroy what was left of the essential *I* by destroying my physical self, all that really remained. It was also a way to seek the punishment I thought I had earned by being essentially damaged or unfit. [snip]

Even now, many years and what feels like many lifetimes later, I do not think or feel that I have recaptured or rebuilt that part of myself which could trust someone completely enough to give them real power over the essential *I*. And if it can change, can I ever fully submit without losing or undoing all the agonizing work it has taken to be me and be alive and feeling in the first place?
[end quote]

 

[Pure]

Note,
In my letter, above, when I mention "Hecate" I was thinking of **Cymbidia's** response to my posting; I don't recall seeing Hecate's, whom I mistakenly referred to.

"Pure"

 

[KestralWolfe]

Lil sis, thank you for sharing.....everyone, actually....thank you. I don't cry much at all, but your stories touched that protective part of me that sees something and says "FIX IT!!" I sure wish I could....just wave a majik wand and everyone would be alright. I only have a few things to say.....anyone who needs to talk, feel free to PM me either here, or my yahoo, or AIM. I have big shoulders, and hundreds of ears, and am willing to try to help anyone I can....even if it's only to have an ear to pour out sadness, fear, or worry to.

The second thing is.......As it has been amply demonstrated here....be carefull, everyone. Life is hard enough without making decisions that could harm you......Just, be carefull. There's only one of "you" and if you allow that precious thing to be damaged, it is so hard to put it back together. I've been broken myself......I still am....not from anything Ds related, but from an abusive father........Not trying to berate, or yell at anyone, not at all..... just, be carefull with yourself. Always.

Be well, be safe, be happy,
Kes

 

[ShyGuy68]

Re: 24/7

What makes you think that 24/7 means never holding hands, lying arm in arm, cuddling up together in front of a TV, and kissing etc.?

Ebony that's not what I meant at all.

I was just voicing my likes and wants in a relationship. There are so many levels of how people see a BDSM relationship, and we aren't all on the same level. *hopes that makes sense*

So I was just telling what level I'm on.

 

[DustyWolfe]

I'm going to throw a new log on the fire here:

Reading Dusty and cas's stories got me thinking about my own past, and it raises an interesting question for me:
Can one who's been broken in a non-BDSM context ever fully become sub?


I think that I am fully sub but only when it comes to play. I am very dominant in many other ways and that is becoming obvious. This submissive pretty much rules the household. It's humorous because everyone knows that in many cases I'm in charge. But I'm happiest when I am on knees. I just do what I have to do.


So I ask you: is it because I was a child that this is the case for me? Is it just me, and my own limitations as a spirit? Is this something that may yet change? And if it can change, can I ever fully submit without losing or undoing all the agonizing work it has taken to be me and be alive and feeling in the first place?

Interesting question... I can fully submit to Jen and one other person without losing myself. And I am happy doing it. It feels very safe to me. Whereas topping scares the shit out of me. Perhaps in the back of my mind I am afraid of having that much control put into my hands.

Risia, i am very sorry for your experiences and I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers as you continue to work through this and grow as an individual

 

[NemoAlia]

Is what Pure's talking about a particularly deep form of subspace? Of meditation? Or anyway, is that how it manifests itself during play? It seems to me like that would be a reasonably good description of the experience of losing the "I am" in the way that he describes. Is the difference between this kind of loss of self and a meditative transcendence of self basically the involvement of another human in the experience?

 

[backboard]

What's so wrong with just finding out what your true self likes?
Besides it's fun to play!

 

[KillerMuffin]

The horse/submissive analogy isn't a very good one. There is no comparison to breaking a submissive and breaking a horse. A horse is being broken to do something that it doesn't do naturally and isn't aware of prior to the training process. A submissive is being broken to do something that s/he does naturally and wants to do before s/he begins training.

There are two ways to "break" horse to accept something that it doesn't naturally do and wasn't aware of.

1 - Break it. This is teaching a horse to accept a rider without consideration of its mental well being. This involves a saddle and bucking. Sometimes it's harsh and breaks the spirit. Sometimes it's not and just teaches the horse that the guy on his back isn't going anywhere. Spirit intact. A horse broken in this manner will always be in danger of rebelling. This is how it used to be done when horses were needed quickly and easily replaced.

2 - Gentle it. This is teaching a horse to accept a rider through slow applications of humanity into its will. Horses are herd animals and they want to please the alpha horse. Gentling a horse teaches it that the human is the alpha horse and pleasing the human is good. This is time consuming and wasn't preferable until a horse became a luxury.

Both of these things are referred to "breaking." It's jargon.

When you break something or someone there will always be a piece inside that will be in danger of rebellion. It doesn't matter how you phrase it, how you do it, what you analyze it. When you break something you are teaching it to do something it doesn't naturally do.

BDSM isn't my forte, but I know a lot about horses.

Incidentally, the most abused class of horse on the planet is the race horse. All thoroughbred racing is abusive. All quarterhorse racing is abusive. Most thoroughbreds are broken to accept a rider and the whip is required to make it run, otherwise it wouldn't. A properly trained race horse wouldn't need to be whipped in a race because its natural desire to run would be trained. As it stands, the horses run their first races within their first year of life and training to ride begins as early as four months of age, depending on how late the horse was born in the season. There is no time to gentle the horse so it must be broken. Most race horses have a life span of four years.

 

[lark sparrow]

WARNING: Hecate rambling, stay clear if you have an own opinion!

Let me say how wonderful I find this new little corner of Lit – and let me say how utterly amazed I am about the number of posts and hits in such a short time. It does show me that there is a huge interest in BDSM and related topics – or at least a basic curiosity as to what it is all about. GREAT! Really really wonderful and encouraging to see we can talk and maybe even are listened to as we try to take the prejudices and dust off our likes.
But … (oh didn’t you just wait for that “but”? ) … there have been a few posts scattered all over the place that made me feel like lifting some issues to an own thread.

As stated in the title – one of them is

wannabes

I have read the term wannabes on some thread of the board and I read it used in the sense of “newbie” (not much better, I know). Let me clarify my understanding of wannabe in the BDSM context and I think it is clear we are talking two pairs of shoes here !

A wannabe – as the word indicates is someone who “wants to be” but isn’t what he/she pretends to be (yet).

There are different levels of being a “wannabe” - one is that you are new to something, so in the sense of the word you “want to be” a part of a group, sport, lifestyle .. whatever it is you are starting to wet your toes with. But strange enough this is not the kind of person/situation I link to being a “wannabe”. Because that kind of person will be part of whatever it is he/she wants to be part of in no time when a genuine interest is shown. And poof – before you know it you are becoming a new but integrated part of the new group. You may be a newbie *chuckles* but nobody will tell you you are a wannabe.

Now we have those who do NOT have a genuine interest in learning, understanding and integrating into the group they are sticking their feet in. They will remain on such a superficial level that they never will get over the “wanting to be” – stage. Those people – and let me now slide from general approach to the BDSM scene – are what I can not really tolerate very well, specially on the internet, where it is hard to distinguish at first between a nice front put up to deceive and the reality behind it. Specially in the BDSM environment I find that not only to be devious but dangerous. Specially when those however aquired semi-truths and notions are passed on as “knowledge” and experience, when there is no real interest in delving into the depth of all the different facets and sides of BDSM.

There is damage that can be done – there are people involved and feelings to be hurt – doing that under the cover of BDSM I take as a personal attack to something that I hold in high esteem and dear to my heart. There is no excuse whatsoever to show abusive (and I mean no “play-abusive” but the serious kind) behavioral patterns under the cover of being a Dom/me. People that use BDSM as a cover for a quick and careless lay, additionally to the mental damage to a trusting sub, maybe even causing physical pain (and in this case I mean pain and not sensation), those are the “wannabes” I am talking about. People who are simply craving pain but do not really feel like letting anyone else be in charge, people who do pretend to be submissive just to find a caring Dominant to dedicate time to them and their sexual pleasure but in reality just seek a little “extra kick” to get over some kind of boredom for a while or because they think it is “in” to be into BDSM, never exploring their real motivations, needs and desires but passing that on to someone else, those are wannabes in my book.

There is nothing wrong with needing sensation for pleasure – even without submitting – but then say so! There is nothing wrong with experimenting on the sub side – but let the other party know it is for the time being just that – an experiment! Do not (and here we have one of the downsides of the internet) pretend to be something you are not, be it Dominant or submissive!

There is no fault in being new to something and saying so openly to get assistance and guidance if wanted – or simply inspiration if needed. Everyone was new to most things at some stage and if we had let others drive us away from those interests by feeling intimidated by those with more experience we never would learn. So please, everyone out there being new to BDSM – you are NOT a “wannabe” in my book! Not as long as you crave to learn and grow and not only scratch the surface of things to then run off and pretend to be a “Master of your trade” after only the slightest glimpse of things!

So let me say again – someone honestly trying to learn or at least inform themselves may be NEW but is not a “wannabe” (read: pretender)! You are a novice Dom/me or a novice sub, but by taking the step to learn and inform yourself you are past wannabe-stage already and as valid a “member of the club” as are any of us and I invite you all in to learn, explore and share the discoveries of your journey.

That said – and hey, you are still reading it seems … let me swap to the topic of


“breaking a sub”

In case you are reading this and don’t know me – I am a Domme (mostly anyway), and a bisexual one as well. (Talk about options here *winks*)

My submissive is more than my pet (oh yes, she is that too but ...) she is my lover and my friend. She is a most precious jewel that I wear in my “crown” - she sparkles and shines from deep within her, has that special glow that I adore about her. Why am I telling you all this?

Because the moment I would “break” her all that would be gone. There is no sparkle in a shattered and chipped diamond!

Breaking a sub – doesn’t it sound horrible (I can kinda hear the bones crack as I imagine a broken spine)?

Well, for some this is seemingly a challenge, one of the “greater aims” of domination. Sorry, but for me those people have just read a few too many fantasy novels about the subject it seems!

Let me take a detour and try to explain my understanding of breaking someone.

If you have managed to instill fear (physical or emotional) to such an extend into a person so that he/she will do whatever you tell them, without wondering if it is good for them, then someone is broken.

If you have managed to dissolve a feeling of “I am” in someone, so that this person can no longer define themselves and their position in the world without you telling them who they are and what they should do, then you have broken someone.

In my deep inner conviction we are always bound to the principle of safe, sane and consensual. Can breaking someone be consensual? We even might get into a discussion about that if you really stretch the limit of that word – but sane!? No fucking way!

BDSM is for me something to make each of the participants richer, stronger and more settled in who and what they are. If someone decides that they derive maximum pleasure from pleasing their Dom/me, fine – it is a gift gladly accepted. If they feel more secure in the knowledge there is someone they can lean on and someone they can orient their value system at – fine, as long as this is chosen by free will, just as I have seen it happen in non-BDSM relations too.

But if it results in a total loss of personal dignity (not during a limited scene, mind you – it can be thrilling in specific settings as a part of humiliation scening) and self-worth perspective even out of scene then I am having a serious case of breaking a spirit! Even more so if an experienced Dominant uses all the knowledge of physical and mental influence to push the submissive over that point.

If a Dom/me uses his/her powers to get a sub to exactly that point of self-neglect, making the sub a quivering wreck that only nurtures on the approval/disapproval of the Dominant then things are definitely being taken to far – way too far. Please All – realize that this is REAL, this is not some Gorean Fantasy book or the world of Sleeping Beauty! This is scarring/harming people for life in the worst of cases!

Again, if you don’t know me you may not jet have come across my rosebush-analogy. Never mind – it was written in my early days but still holds much of my conviction... in short: Consider a sub a rose bush and the Dom/me the gardener. A rose is a rose and will remain a rose. The gardener now tries to give it what it needs, water and warmth – and eventually something to hold on to, maybe he ties the rose into an intricate pattern so that it enhances the beauty of the blossoms and pleases him even more. But if the gardener tries too hard to make anything else from it but a rose or bends or cuts it down too much the rose will not bloom to the fullest, it even may die.
If you choose your sub why choose something you do not really want and try to forge it into something different?
If I want daisies instead of roses I can’t get anything but disappointed by the most splendid rose, and no matter what I do to it, it will never be what I seek. Will it be a daisy after I have broken the stem or ripped off the petals? NO!

We are not living in the dark barbaric times of ages past. Our “slaves” are so by free will – we need not force them into our service anymore. They are not seeking to get us killed for their own freedom, they do not refuse to serve us because they never had another choice and are rebelling.

We need not break spirits for our safety – and we should not break spirits for our “pleasure” – that is NOT BDSM, that is - to put it politely – disturbing!

We are in our times talking about a (mainly erotic based) relation of trust when we talk about dominance and submission. Our slaves/subs/lovers made a choice – a free, sane and consensual one, to be wearing our collar and chains in the first place. I for one intend to treasure that gift. I want my darling pet to grow, to develop – but not to change her personality, I love her for exactly that personality. I want her to fight me if she isn’t happy with what goes on – I do not want her to take all I dish out in a demure destructive way. BDSM is about fulfilling needs – of BOTH parties involved.

And even if we are not about love relations, don’t we choose our play partners for their personality, because they either complement us, or challenge us or whatever else we are seeking at the time? It is all about fun basically, about pleasure! And I simply enjoy it much more knowing there are the both of us having a good time (call me a Softie-Domme if you like). If my approach to BDSM is not for a particular sub then we shouldn’t be playing.


Well – if you made it till here I thank you for “listening” - you are now free to do with my opinion whatever you like (and be thankful I am running out of time right now since I could spill my poison on some topics for a long time). In case you wonder why I made a new thread of it - I simply couldn’t find one where to slip it in without it a) getting lost or b) disturbing the present dynamics of the thread.

And now to really piss you off all I said above in two sentences *weg* (you! – aren’t you a masochist subbie? Then stop complaining! )

a) “Welcome” to all who came to this corner to wet their toes on a subject they want to learn about – “watch your step” to all those who are seeking a “guide to abusive sexual behavior under the cover of BDSM”

b) BDSM is a delicate matter, physically and emotionally, and it has to be treated with respect and integrity if you want it to be a pleasant and fulfilling journey for all parties involved, following the rules of safe, sane and consensual

Any new thoughts on this topic?

 

[Ebonyfire]

My rant

Speaking of wannabes...

I got an email from a sub who wanted to apply to serve Me. In the course of conversation, he said two things:

1. For the right Domme, he has no limits.

2. He is married, but he and his spouse are "sexually separated."

Puleeze.

First of all, I look at the discussion of limits as an ongoing discussion between two adults who know a thing or two about each other.

Also, what the hell does "sexually separated" mean. Absolutely nothing. Either you are married or not.

I was polite, and told him that I do not have married subs. I wished him good luck on his search, and went on my merry way.

 

[voetstep]

A rant that is well worth reading, pondering, reading again and digesting, one word at a time.

lilminx: It is a confusing time and should you wish to share with me or just throw ideas around, you know where I am.

lilminx and myself share a common bond here, MissTaken...you could say we're practically walking in the same pair of shoes. Only I haven't introduced myself formally to either of you. I'm not new to the site, but new to the boards, and am finding an
absolute plethora of information here. Thanks to ALL!

My situation is that I strongly believe i want to live a submissive lifestyle, and have been interested in this lifestyle for at least 15 years. I've never had a relationship that involved any bdsm at all, however. That would be the result of me not stepping up to the plate and going after what I really really really want because i've been too shy, or concerned of what other people might think, or you name it. Well, i've decided to let my husband in on my little secret (slowly but surely) and i'm slowly but surely realizing that bdsm is not a lifestyle he wants to be a part of/partake in, etc...

my dilemma: get over it and just live happily ever after?
(perhaps that's more of a quandary...?)

And thank you, Hecate, for your incredibly informative post.

(hopefully my husband will one day partake in some of these discussions....in time....in time.)