About wannabes and broken subs – Hecate spilling her poison

Oblivion_Night said:
The central tenet of BDSM play, it seems to me, should be that it brings pleasure and fulfillment to BOTH parties and makes them richer as individuals.

IMHO you are correct
but remember what is one persons pleasure may not be someone elses

I would also suggest that you expand your vocabular
in addtion to Dom(me) and submisssive/slave
there are
tops
bottoms
sensualists
etc.

BTW a sub is something I go to Subway to buy
and than eat
 
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Hecate, your opening post in this thread is probably the most sane, true and wellformulated message I have ever seen on this topic! :rose:

TaintedB said:
(....) " Everyone is responsible for their own safety."

Ah, the olde Libertarian-Mad-Max view of S&M. The trouble with this sort of idea is that it sounds really, reasonable...until you start to explore the ramifications. People should get their shit together, develop common sense, use street smarts. learn the scene, etc. to keep themselves as safe as possible, especially submissives, since their sexual needs compel them so strongly to place themselves in situations of physical helplessness or emotional vulnerability. All very fine and well. But far too often the insistence that everybody is a totally responsible loner, completely in control of whether they are killed or hurt badly in the persual of their needs (I was about to say "eat or be eaten" but that sounds a little strange in a sexual context) is used to justify tearing down the normal protections and safeguards that virtually any group or society orginally creates to defend and protect _all_ of its members, especially thouse who are not perfect self-sufficient specimins. (You know, don't you, that if all submissives were perfect, self-sufficent mad-max type specimins, completely capable of insuring their own safety at all times and never capable of doing anything irrational or self-destrutive, you probably find them completely lacking in allure.)

The point is, if everybody really were responsible for their own safety, we wouldn't have crimimal laws, we wouldn't have laws against corporate rapciousness, we wouldn't have mandatory hurricane evacuations....and, we wouldn't have one-tenth as complex and sophisticated a culture as we have now, as that kind of culture is imposible to maintain in an anarchic frontier-world when everybody must spend most of their time insuring their own physical survivial, rather than making art, writing books, building bridges, producin movies, sending up satallites, etc. If your goal is that sort of complex and rich civilization, than your slogan has pretty much "Everybody has the right to be safe and the groups they belong to are more or less responsible for insuring that safety."

--Taint Has Spoken. ;)
Well spoken, Taint! :rose:
 
I found this thread today and after reading several posts, wish that I had found it when I first came to the boards. No need to hide behind anyone KC. You speak from the voice of experience. I agree that some people were just not meant to wear certain hats...and that some hats are more difficult to wear than others.

This may or may not be the appropriate place to thank all of you who post your thoughts, tips and tidbits. I mention often my limited experience but state for the record it is real life experience and have found the "...walk to the weird side of town," rather exciting.

Because you all post here I have learned to be safe, enjoy myself and direct my focus in a way I was never before able to. For me it's all about awareness.


;)
Kajira Callista said:
you hit the nail on the head there with the "I don't know where they come from, some of them, you'd think grew up in bubbles. That's the thing, finding SM used to necessitate a complex, intimidating, and not-always-anonymous walk to the weird side of town. A walk that fewer people every day seem to feel the need to take."
wanting to be doesnt mean you should sit behind a computer (Same as growing up in bubble) and pretend to be, it means you need to learn and to do so you can find out if you are...in real life using all of your senses. not with words that come from your fingertips.

*hides behind Netzach and Uncle Rosco*
 
Nightbird said:
This is an old one to bump.
The search function presented this thread when I was looking for Levels of Dominance after reading Ebonyfire mention it in the complimenting Levels of Submission. Serendipity perhaps ........
 
Nightbird said:
This is an old one to bump.


Some of the old threads here are the best threads
there seems to be this "need" to start a new thread on a subject
that has a wonderful older thread going

This thread also alodes to the time when there was no BDSM boards here
just the "big/long" thread on the general boards
 
This is a very good thread way before my time.

I've read some other Hecate things.. Simply amazing..
 
Hecate said:
WARNING: Hecate rambling, stay clear if you have an own opinion! ;)

Let me say how wonderful I find this new little corner of Lit – and let me say how utterly amazed I am about the number of posts and hits in such a short time. It does show me that there is a huge interest in BDSM and related topics – or at least a basic curiosity as to what it is all about. GREAT! Really really wonderful and encouraging to see we can talk and maybe even are listened to as we try to take the prejudices and dust off our likes.
But … (oh didn’t you just wait for that “but”? ;)) … there have been a few posts scattered all over the place that made me feel like lifting some issues to an own thread.

As stated in the title – one of them is

wannabes

I have read the term wannabes on some thread of the board and I read it used in the sense of “newbie” (not much better, I know). Let me clarify my understanding of wannabe in the BDSM context and I think it is clear we are talking two pairs of shoes here !

A wannabe – as the word indicates is someone who “wants to be” but isn’t what he/she pretends to be (yet).

There are different levels of being a “wannabe” - one is that you are new to something, so in the sense of the word you “want to be” a part of a group, sport, lifestyle .. whatever it is you are starting to wet your toes with. But strange enough this is not the kind of person/situation I link to being a “wannabe”. Because that kind of person will be part of whatever it is he/she wants to be part of in no time when a genuine interest is shown. And poof – before you know it you are becoming a new but integrated part of the new group. You may be a newbie *chuckles* but nobody will tell you you are a wannabe.

Now we have those who do NOT have a genuine interest in learning, understanding and integrating into the group they are sticking their feet in. They will remain on such a superficial level that they never will get over the “wanting to be” – stage. Those people – and let me now slide from general approach to the BDSM scene – are what I can not really tolerate very well, specially on the internet, where it is hard to distinguish at first between a nice front put up to deceive and the reality behind it. Specially in the BDSM environment I find that not only to be devious but dangerous. Specially when those however aquired semi-truths and notions are passed on as “knowledge” and experience, when there is no real interest in delving into the depth of all the different facets and sides of BDSM.

There is damage that can be done – there are people involved and feelings to be hurt – doing that under the cover of BDSM I take as a personal attack to something that I hold in high esteem and dear to my heart. There is no excuse whatsoever to show abusive (and I mean no “play-abusive” but the serious kind) behavioral patterns under the cover of being a Dom/me. People that use BDSM as a cover for a quick and careless lay, additionally to the mental damage to a trusting sub, maybe even causing physical pain (and in this case I mean pain and not sensation), those are the “wannabes” I am talking about. People who are simply craving pain but do not really feel like letting anyone else be in charge, people who do pretend to be submissive just to find a caring Dominant to dedicate time to them and their sexual pleasure but in reality just seek a little “extra kick” to get over some kind of boredom for a while or because they think it is “in” to be into BDSM, never exploring their real motivations, needs and desires but passing that on to someone else, those are wannabes in my book.

There is nothing wrong with needing sensation for pleasure – even without submitting – but then say so! There is nothing wrong with experimenting on the sub side – but let the other party know it is for the time being just that – an experiment! Do not (and here we have one of the downsides of the internet) pretend to be something you are not, be it Dominant or submissive!

There is no fault in being new to something and saying so openly to get assistance and guidance if wanted – or simply inspiration if needed. Everyone was new to most things at some stage and if we had let others drive us away from those interests by feeling intimidated by those with more experience we never would learn. So please, everyone out there being new to BDSM – you are NOT a “wannabe” in my book! Not as long as you crave to learn and grow and not only scratch the surface of things to then run off and pretend to be a “Master of your trade” after only the slightest glimpse of things!

So let me say again – someone honestly trying to learn or at least inform themselves may be NEW but is not a “wannabe” (read: pretender)! You are a novice Dom/me or a novice sub, but by taking the step to learn and inform yourself you are past wannabe-stage already and as valid a “member of the club” as are any of us and I invite you all in to learn, explore and share the discoveries of your journey.

That said – and hey, you are still reading it seems … let me swap to the topic of


“breaking a sub”

In case you are reading this and don’t know me – I am a Domme (mostly anyway), and a bisexual one as well. (Talk about options here *winks*)

My submissive is more than my pet (oh yes, she is that too but ...) she is my lover and my friend. She is a most precious jewel that I wear in my “crown” - she sparkles and shines from deep within her, has that special glow that I adore about her. Why am I telling you all this?

Because the moment I would “break” her all that would be gone. There is no sparkle in a shattered and chipped diamond!

Breaking a sub – doesn’t it sound horrible (I can kinda hear the bones crack as I imagine a broken spine)?

Well, for some this is seemingly a challenge, one of the “greater aims” of domination. Sorry, but for me those people have just read a few too many fantasy novels about the subject it seems!

Let me take a detour and try to explain my understanding of breaking someone.

If you have managed to instill fear (physical or emotional) to such an extend into a person so that he/she will do whatever you tell them, without wondering if it is good for them, then someone is broken.

If you have managed to dissolve a feeling of “I am” in someone, so that this person can no longer define themselves and their position in the world without you telling them who they are and what they should do, then you have broken someone.

In my deep inner conviction we are always bound to the principle of safe, sane and consensual. Can breaking someone be consensual? We even might get into a discussion about that if you really stretch the limit of that word – but sane!? No fucking way!

BDSM is for me something to make each of the participants richer, stronger and more settled in who and what they are. If someone decides that they derive maximum pleasure from pleasing their Dom/me, fine – it is a gift gladly accepted. If they feel more secure in the knowledge there is someone they can lean on and someone they can orient their value system at – fine, as long as this is chosen by free will, just as I have seen it happen in non-BDSM relations too.

But if it results in a total loss of personal dignity (not during a limited scene, mind you – it can be thrilling in specific settings as a part of humiliation scening) and self-worth perspective even out of scene then I am having a serious case of breaking a spirit! Even more so if an experienced Dominant uses all the knowledge of physical and mental influence to push the submissive over that point.

If a Dom/me uses his/her powers to get a sub to exactly that point of self-neglect, making the sub a quivering wreck that only nurtures on the approval/disapproval of the Dominant then things are definitely being taken to far – way too far. Please All – realize that this is REAL, this is not some Gorean Fantasy book or the world of Sleeping Beauty! This is scarring/harming people for life in the worst of cases!

Again, if you don’t know me you may not jet have come across my rosebush-analogy. Never mind – it was written in my early days but still holds much of my conviction... in short: Consider a sub a rose bush and the Dom/me the gardener. A rose is a rose and will remain a rose. The gardener now tries to give it what it needs, water and warmth – and eventually something to hold on to, maybe he ties the rose into an intricate pattern so that it enhances the beauty of the blossoms and pleases him even more. But if the gardener tries too hard to make anything else from it but a rose or bends or cuts it down too much the rose will not bloom to the fullest, it even may die.
If you choose your sub why choose something you do not really want and try to forge it into something different?
If I want daisies instead of roses I can’t get anything but disappointed by the most splendid rose, and no matter what I do to it, it will never be what I seek. Will it be a daisy after I have broken the stem or ripped off the petals? NO!

We are not living in the dark barbaric times of ages past. Our “slaves” are so by free will – we need not force them into our service anymore. They are not seeking to get us killed for their own freedom, they do not refuse to serve us because they never had another choice and are rebelling.

We need not break spirits for our safety – and we should not break spirits for our “pleasure” – that is NOT BDSM, that is - to put it politely – disturbing!

We are in our times talking about a (mainly erotic based) relation of trust when we talk about dominance and submission. Our slaves/subs/lovers made a choice – a free, sane and consensual one, to be wearing our collar and chains in the first place. I for one intend to treasure that gift. I want my darling pet to grow, to develop – but not to change her personality, I love her for exactly that personality. I want her to fight me if she isn’t happy with what goes on – I do not want her to take all I dish out in a demure destructive way. BDSM is about fulfilling needs – of BOTH parties involved.

And even if we are not about love relations, don’t we choose our play partners for their personality, because they either complement us, or challenge us or whatever else we are seeking at the time? It is all about fun basically, about pleasure! And I simply enjoy it much more knowing there are the both of us having a good time (call me a Softie-Domme if you like). If my approach to BDSM is not for a particular sub then we shouldn’t be playing.


Well – if you made it till here I thank you for “listening” - you are now free to do with my opinion whatever you like (and be thankful I am running out of time right now since I could spill my poison on some topics for a long time). In case you wonder why I made a new thread of it - I simply couldn’t find one where to slip it in without it a) getting lost or b) disturbing the present dynamics of the thread.

And now to really piss you off all I said above in two sentences *weg* (you! – aren’t you a masochist subbie? Then stop complaining! ;))

a) “Welcome” to all who came to this corner to wet their toes on a subject they want to learn about – “watch your step” to all those who are seeking a “guide to abusive sexual behavior under the cover of BDSM”

b) BDSM is a delicate matter, physically and emotionally, and it has to be treated with respect and integrity if you want it to be a pleasant and fulfilling journey for all parties involved, following the rules of safe, sane and consensual


Walking away is always an option.

Ishmael
 
This is very interesting to read. Having not having spent much time at BDSM message boards and not necessarily sharing as a part of any community before now it's interesting to read her take on things. She says she's "spilling her poison", but I find what she has to say far from that. She's very elloquent in the way that she speaks and very good at educating others.

I've always kept this part of my life a secret except from a chosen few. There are people that would be shocked that I am a submissive, have pleasure in pain, and have been living this way for nearly 20 years. Being in that position I've listened to people over the that who think they know about this life, but they really haven't a clue. They are facinated by the idea and would like to try it. So yes I've seen wannabes. There are more of them than we think.
 
Hecate said, //BDSM is for me something to make each of the participants richer, stronger and more settled in who and what they are. If someone decides that they derive maximum pleasure from pleasing their Dom/me, fine – it is a gift gladly accepted. If they feel more secure in the knowledge there is someone they can lean on and someone they can orient their value system at – fine, as long as this is chosen by free will, just as I have seen it happen in non-BDSM relations too.

But if it results in a total loss of personal dignity (not during a limited scene, mind you – it can be thrilling in specific settings as a part of humiliation scening) and self-worth perspective even out of scene then I am having a serious case of breaking a spirit! Even more so if an experienced Dominant uses all the knowledge of physical and mental influence to push the submissive over that point.

If a Dom/me uses his/her powers to get a sub to exactly that point of self-neglect, making the sub a quivering wreck that only nurtures on the approval/disapproval of the Dominant then things are definitely being taken to far – way too far. Please All – realize that this is REAL, this is not some Gorean Fantasy book or the world of Sleeping Beauty! This is scarring/harming people for life in the worst of cases!

Again, if you don’t know me you may not jet have come across my rosebush-analogy. Never mind – it was written in my early days but still holds much of my conviction... in short: Consider a sub a rose bush and the Dom/me the gardener. A rose is a rose and will remain a rose. The gardener now tries to give it what it needs, water and warmth – and eventually something to hold on to, maybe he ties the rose into an intricate pattern so that it enhances the beauty of the blossoms and pleases him even more. But if the gardener tries too hard to make anything else from it but a rose or bends or cuts it down too much the rose will not bloom to the fullest, it even may die.//


P: first there's something to be said for the rosebush analogy, provided it's understood that 'tying the rose into an intricate pattern', e.g. to a trellis is not natural to the rose. the trellis is of the design and choosing of the top.


===
as to
hec to get a sub to exactly that point of self-neglect, making the sub a quivering wreck that only nurtures on the approval/disapproval of the Dominant

P: quivering wrecks don't do anyone any good. but the concept of "break" needs to be clarified. every "break" is not a "break down."

think of 'breaking in' a horse, or a pair of boots. one wants functioning at the end, not a demolished wreck.


even when the marines say they'll 'break' a new recruit, that means a functioning person that knows his place in the hiercharcy (the bottom). not a quivering 'psych case' who would have to be discharged.

in all cases, *arbitrary* self will is 'broken': i get to do what i want, when i want it. not useful in a horse or marine infantryman. presumably a clearer and steadier will results, shaped in accord with the objectives of the situation. in the soldier's case its not an "individual" will---this is what *I* think should be done-- but a will that respects the teams and officers' decisions.

this brings up the old question next door to 'breaking' and 'training'-- what is the desiered endpoint (in a long term top/bottom interection)? or are there several plausible one? docile partner? autonomous individual? defiant person? what,exactly?
 
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I so feel the love

It's just another reinforcement to what I continually see over and over again. A sense of care, concern & community found nowhere else but the 1950's. Thank you Hecate for your wonderful words and for taking the time to help. Now how do I get rid of that "virgin" moniker under my name? *smiles to self** Sorry, I'm not medicated.
 
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