An excerpt from a new Emma & Lily story

[StillStunned]

It’s a blatant rip off. Totally blatant.

Emily

Like Star Wars is a blatant rip-off of The Hidden Fortress?

Consider this: When The Sword of Shannara was first published, in 1977, it was an immense success. NYT bestseller. Why? Because it LotR was popular. The people who loved LotR loved Shannara, because it filled a void. It took elements from LotR, moulded them into a new story and setting and created a tale that was familiar enough that readers had an instant connection to it and embraced it. That was what they wanted.

Lester Delrey did this deliberately. He'd been hired by Ballentine's (I think) to create a market for fantasy. To do that, he needed to publish a book that brought in the massive Tolkien fandom. But if Shannara had been nothing more than a blatant rip-off, it wouldn't have been a success. And Lester Delrey wouldn't have published it, because he would have known better.

You want a real blatant rip-off? Try the Iron Tower Trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernan. Not only does it copy the plot of LotR much more closely than Shannara does, it tries - and fails miserably - to copy the tone and style.

(But I'm breaking my own rule against getting into online arguments. You have your point of view, I have mine. How about we leave it at that, and let this thread return to its original topic? Or drop me a PM - but I warn you, I've been fighting this fight for decades.)

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It defined the tropes of heroic fantasy by copying elements of LotR's plot and characters. That's what created the genre that was cemented with Dragonlance Chronicles a few years later - up to and including "fantasy comes in trilogies".

It also proved that there was a market for fantasy. You can criticise it for not being original - and I could provide a dozen points to disprove that claim without even needing to think - but without Shannara there wouldn't be any fantasy. No Wheel of Time. No Game of Thrones. No Lord of the Rings movies. No Gentlemen Bastards or First Law. No Dresden Files or Rivers of London. Probably no Harry Potter either.

It would have happened with or without Shannara, in my opinion.

Btw, I see we share the same taste in Fantasy, judging by your choice of the Fantasy series, so that makes me ask... How good is this Rivers of London series as that is the only one I haven't read or even heard of to be honest...? I am always on the prowl for a good Fantasy read...

 

[StillStunned]

It would have happened with or without Shannara, in my opinion.

Btw, I see we share the same teste in Fantasy, judging by your choice of the Fantasy series, so that makes me ask... How good is this Rivers of London series as that is the only one I haven't read or even heard of to be honest...? I am always on the prowl for a good Fantasy read...

It's excellent, in my opinion. Police procedural, and it gets into the gritty details of procedure, but that doesn't bog down the story. Very imaginative, and very nerdy. (At a certain point the hero and some other characters are lost in some tunnels under the London Underground, and hear a rhythmic thumping in the distance. "Drums," I said. And then, just because I could, "Drums in the deep.") One of the more recent novels is called "Amongst our weapons". That said, the nerdiness doesn't get in the way of telling a good story with strong, believable characters. It can get pretty dark at times. The story doesn't shy away from some of the nastier sides of police work in a city like London.

If you like audiobooks, Stephen Pacey does a great job of narrating them. Fun fact: Pacey played Tarrant in Blake's Seven. One of the writers of Blake's Seven was Terry Nation, who also wrote Dr Who. Another Dr Who writer was Ben Aaronovich, author of The Rivers of London.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It's excellent, in my opinion. Police procedural, and it gets into the gritty details of procedure, but that doesn't bog down the story. Very imaginative, and very nerdy. (At a certain point the hero and some other characters are lost in some tunnels under the London Underground, and hear a rhythmic thumping in the distance. "Drums," I said. And then, just because I could, "Drums in the deep.") One of the more recent novels is called "Amongst our weapons". That said, the nerdiness doesn't get in the way of telling a good story with strong, believable characters. It can get pretty dark at times. The story doesn't shy away from some of the nastier sides of police work in a city like London.

Thanks, I'll check it out then. I see that Goodreads hasn't been too generous to the series so it's good to hear your opinion.
I don't do audiobooks, btw. I like reading books and I like consuming the story at my own pace

 

[AwkwardlySet]

By the way @StillStunned , I have seen some warnings about British slang, London specific cultural references and such. How present and important is all this? I intend to try reading it in English and I would hate to have to reach for a slang dictionary every five words

 

[StillStunned]

By the way @StillStunned , I have seen some warnings about British slang, London specific cultural references and such. How present and important is all this? I intend to try reading it in English and I would hate to have to reach for a slang dictionary every five words

I don't think there are too many. Maybe a few bits of rhyming slang like "take a butcher's" (butcher's hook = look), and if you know the geography of London you can trace pretty much every scene step by step. But it's nothing you can't work out from the context.

My sister, who's also a big fan, says you can go on Google Streetview and check every reference to every landmark.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Like Star Wars is a blatant rip-off of The Hidden Fortress?

Yes. This is not news to me. But SW had original elements, which were much more important that the basic plot, which is TBH totally unremarkable.

Consider this: When The Sword of Shannara was first published, in 1977, it was an immense success. NYT bestseller. Why? Because it LotR was popular. The people who loved LotR loved Shannara, because it filled a void. It took elements from LotR, moulded them into a new story and setting and created a tale that was familiar enough that readers had an instant connection to it and embraced it. That was what they wanted.

This person who loves LoTR didn’t - though admittedly it wasn’t back in the 70s. More the 2010s.

It created nothing new, did Tolkien (or his estate) sue?

Lester Delrey did this deliberately. He'd been hired by Ballentine's (I think) to create a market for fantasy. To do that, he needed to publish a book that brought in the massive Tolkien fandom. But if Shannara had been nothing more than a blatant rip-off, it wouldn't have been a success. And Lester Delrey wouldn't have published it, because he would have known better.

We have to agree to differ. It’s eye-poppingly derivative. It’s like a fan-fic. And not a good fan-fic.

You want a real blatant rip-off? Try the Iron Tower Trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernan. Not only does it copy the plot of LotR much more closely than Shannara does, it tries - and fails miserably - to copy the tone and style.

(But I'm breaking my own rule against getting into online arguments. You have your point of view, I have mine. How about we leave it at that, and let this thread return to its original topic? Or drop me a PM - but I warn you, I've been fighting this fight for decades.)

Let’s agree to differ.

But I’m obviously right. I thought your wife had you better trained.

Emily

 

[StillStunned]

But I’m obviously right. I thought your wife had you better trained.

The redhead gives me free rein where books are concerned. And she's very strict about being the only woman who gets to boss me around.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The redhead gives me free rein where books are concerned. And she's very strict about being the only woman who gets to boss me around.

Oh, hun. Keep telling yourself that .

Emily

 

[StillStunned]

Oh, hun. Keep telling yourself that .

Emily

Well, there's the cat too.