Any Christians out there?

[FurryFury]

I so agree with you on this.

Oh. My. God. I love YOU, and am so glad I didn't have to say it because you explain everything better than me anyway. I'm not worthy!

Sorry, people, I'm just giddy.



But but but...there is a cultural aspect of Christianity, though perhaps it would be more accurate to refer it to it as something other than Christianity. I sometimes say, secular "Christian" culture. There is something cultural that binds together Christmas celebrants, even the many who don't give a crap about Jesus. And while that tree may be Pagan in origin, y'all aren't Pagan (most of you). It's all of the holiday traditions, the dinner, the whole Christmas spirit - drive to connect with your neighbor, presents, cookies, etc. I can't begin to tell you the number of self-identified atheists and agnostics I know who are militant about celebrating Christmas, and can't understand why I don't and won't celebrate it. It's all kinds of other little things too that I can't always remember, but when they come up amongst my friends, my Muslim friend and I always look at each other and go, yeah, THAT. Like all those casserole recipes. Jello salad. Baby showers!

The thing is there's so many of you - it's as specific as checking the box White. I mean, there are as many Passover meal possibilities as there are Jews, probably, but we all know we're Jews.



I absolutely understand. It's just that there is a mainstream culture in this country that has its roots in the Christian religion, but isn't particularly tied to it anymore.

 

[FurryFury]

I find it interesting that if you want rabid "I KNOW THE ANSWER" you can ask a certain breed of atheist.

A more dedicated bunch of sand-castle tromping with glee is hard to find.

Faith in NOTHING is just as strong as faith in SOMETHING.

I agree with this too. I'd like atheist more and identify with them better if the majority I met weren't so brittle, pissed off and generally unpleasant. They truly are a minority that are oft trampled on in our socity though and that does ugly things to people.

I'm always open to possibilities. That's why I think of myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist. If god exists then s/he can make it clear to me at any time should s/he care to. I'm open. I'll go with logic and things I can feel or touch in the meantime.

 

[FurryFury]

My brother-in-law is agnostic if not atheist and still feels the need to do a prayer at the Thanksgiving or Christmas meal. That's the only time he does it. Then he gets up and shoots a squirrel out of the tree so he can cut the tail off and get free fishing lures from Mepps. Well, they'll give you 26 cents a tail or double in trade. He shoots about 50 a year. Just for the fucking tail.

A New York redneck.

Guys who shoot animals but don't honor the life they take piss me off.

 

[FurryFury]

Word.

*nods muchly*

My sister and I were the ONLY kids in our neighborhood who never went anywhere to worship anybody. The only ones. Most kids went weekly, but EVERYBODY went at some point or other. I got told by some kids that I was going to hell, and by other kids that they were "chosen."

Today, I listen to talking heads blather about how a non-religious person could never, ever get elected because his or her moral grounding would be suspect. There's praying at the Inauguration and in Congress and all over the damn place. In a country with "secular" government.

This is where I'm coming from. "So many of you" is bullshit.

 

[intothewoods]

My sister and I were the ONLY kids in our neighborhood who never went anywhere to worship anybody. The only ones. Most kids went weekly, but EVERYBODY went at some point or other. I got told by some kids that I was going to hell, and by other kids that they were "chosen."

Today, I listen to talking heads blather about how a non-religious person could never, ever get elected because his or her moral grounding would be suspect. There's praying at the Inauguration and in Congress and all over the damn place. In a country with "secular" government.

This is where I'm coming from. "So many of you" is bullshit.

Chosen? A group of kids told you they were chosen? I can't even imagine growing up around that many Jews.

So your parents are atheists? Did you celebrate Christmas growing up? If so, I am curious if your parents thought there was any disconnect between celebrating Christmas and atheism. It's true that non-believers in many areas are outcasts. I find it more common these days to know a spiritual agnostic who very much embraces the secular traditions of Christmas, Easter, etc.

But some people are, and it seems to me that it's more than a bit insulting to both the active believers, and to me, to lump us together with the same word.

Because if "Christian" is everybody who grew up in American culture, then "Christian" has no religious meaning at all.

And if you insist on labeling me Christian, then "agnostic" has no meaning either.

Are you guys seriously postulating that Christians in the Philippines are closer to me from a cultural perspective than I am to you?

Why not just label our culture "American"? How does that in any way negate the Judeo-Christian roots of Western society? Then we can identify as Jewish Americans and African Americans and Baptist Americans and agnostic Americans and so on.

I don't know what to call you - White? I sometimes used to joke with my Asian friends about the White kids in school. White meaning white, non-Jewish. If American = Christmas, I am not American.

 

[JMohegan]

Chosen? A group of kids told you they were chosen? I can't even imagine growing up around that many Jews.

So your parents are atheists? Did you celebrate Christmas growing up? If so, I am curious if your parents thought there was any disconnect between celebrating Christmas and atheism. It's true that non-believers in many areas are outcasts. I find it more common these days to know a spiritual agnostic who very much embraces the secular traditions of Christmas, Easter, etc.

Agnostic. I was raised to believe that no one knows, but a lot of people take comfort in guessing.

We had a tree and presents, but my parents were actively anti-commercialism so by most people's standards it was very low key. Nevertheless, it was "Happy Santa Day" in our house.

I don't know what to call you - White? I sometimes used to joke with my Asian friends about the White kids in school. White meaning white, non-Jewish. If American = Christmas, I am not American.

What do you call an African American Christian? White too?

I would say that American = a combination of Western ethical & legal principles shared by most raised here and the melting pot grounding that Recidiva described. Christmas has nothing to do with it.

 

[WriterDom]

Guys who shoot animals but don't honor the life they take piss me off.

There will be a lot of Big Macs, and Whoppers, and leather goods and fur coats sold tomorrow. I doubt they get a lot of honor either.

Leather goods are kind of kinky though.

I like my cuffs and whips.


Killing a warm animal reduces global warming. Open season on snakes.

The older I get the less I kill. Even spiders can make it out the door if the cooperate.

 

[FurryFury]

There will be a lot of Big Macs, and Whoppers, and leather goods and fur coats sold tomorrow. I doubt they get a lot of honor either.

Leather goods are kind of kinky though.

I like my cuffs and whips.


Killing a warm animal reduces global warming. Open season on snakes.

The older I get the less I kill. Even spiders can make it out the door if the cooperate.

Yes, I'm sure there will be a lot sold but not to me.

Spiders being generally useful insects get a free pass from me as long as they leave me alone.

 

[intothewoods]

Plenty of my Asian friends are Christian.

I simply believe that the majority culture in this country is rooted in Christianity.

 

[FurryFury]

Plenty of my Asian friends are Christian.

I simply believe that the majority culture in this country is rooted in Christianity.

I do too.

And you don't have to be Jewish to consider yourselves "chosen" or tell others they are going to hell. My husband used to skip church and sneak to an eating place. Some of the kids in his church told him he was going to hell and tormented him when they could get away with it.

 

[JMohegan]

Plenty of my Asian friends are Christian.

I simply believe that the majority culture in this country is rooted in Christianity.

I don't disagree with you there.

 

[intothewoods]

I do too.

And you don't have to be Jewish to consider yourselves "chosen" or tell others they are going to hell. My husband used to skip church and sneak to an eating place. Some of the kids in his church told him he was going to hell and tormented him when they could get away with it.

The chosen word, specifically, is a Jewish thing. But yeah, plenty of people like to tell others they are going to hell.

 

[JMohegan]

The chosen word, specifically, is a Jewish thing. But yeah, plenty of people like to tell others they are going to hell.

My best friend growing up was raised to believe that he was one of the Chosen People (i.e., Jews), special in the eyes of God and responsible to a higher standard than the Others.

It was alienating, if I thought about it, but I rarely did. Mostly we practiced wheelies and had worm races and such.

 

[Netzach]

Christmas has nothing to do with it.

Christmas has everything to do with it. It's the perfect example of it.

"Oh that, it's just Christmas."

Oh that, it's just Ramadan doesn't remotely play the same. Even if you're the kind of secular Muslim who eats pork, has a girlfriend he bangs every night and drinks beer.

 

[JMohegan]

Christmas has everything to do with it. It's the perfect example of it.

"Oh that, it's just Christmas."

Oh that, it's just Ramadan doesn't remotely play the same. Even if you're the kind of secular Muslim who eats pork, has a girlfriend he bangs every night and drinks beer.

"It" here is the definition of "American."

To me, "American" means Christmas and Ramadan and Passover and whatever the heck Tom Cruise does is okay. Freedom from religious persecution = "American."

 

[00Syd]

"It" here is the definition of "American."

To me, "American" means Christmas and Ramadan and Passover and whatever the heck Tom Cruise does is okay. Freedom from religious persecution = "American."

We're getting there.

On a sort of unrelated note,

I remember when the Empire State Building went Blue and White for Hanuka for the first time, and there was a big article in the Times about how The Empire State Building decided to do it because a little girl wrote to them and asked them why they didn't, etc, etc. When that first happened when I was a kid, it seemed really significant. Now whenever I see it I think about how their choice of Blue and White to represent Hanuka is probably a little inappropriate.

 

[intothewoods]

We're getting there.

On a sort of unrelated note,

I remember when the Empire State Building went Blue and White for Hanuka for the first time, and there was a big article in the Times about how The Empire State Building decided to do it because a little girl wrote to them and asked them why they didn't, etc, etc. When that first happened when I was a kid, it seemed really significant. Now whenever I see it I think about how their choice of Blue and White to represent Hanuka is probably a little inappropriate.

Gah - seriously? In my mind, worst. idea. ever.

 

[hazel43]

Christianity has a dirty side, in history. The belief held by Christians that they are better than others, lead to Christian Wars, made them think that slavery was right, and that it was ok to murder thousands of America‘s native inhabitants.

Christianity was a significant part of my childhood. But the whole thing had an interesting twist. My dad grew up in a rural Baptist church. He was 15 when the 1930‘s depression came about, and his family became homeless. He worked as a share cropper until WWII. He then went to Europe and marched through Germany. I believe he was a very exhausted man when they liberated three Jewish concentration camps. Something clicked inside him… And he stopped believing in God.

He returned to the US, and married a Presbyterian women, my mom. So, there I was, with one Grandmother who was Baptist and another Presbyterian

God exists for me, there is no doubt in my mind. It is quite possible I am crazy. But there is an intelligent creative energy connecting me to all other living things. I have felt it in my life many times. Usually, these times have been when I was at extremely low points in my life.

 

[00Syd]

Gah - seriously? In my mind, worst. idea. ever.

Seriously. Every year.

And its like, yay, its great, they are recognizing Hanuka just like thay recognize Christmas. But on the other hand... Blue and white?

 

[JMohegan]

We're getting there.

On a sort of unrelated note,

I remember when the Empire State Building went Blue and White for Hanuka for the first time, and there was a big article in the Times about how The Empire State Building decided to do it because a little girl wrote to them and asked them why they didn't, etc, etc. When that first happened when I was a kid, it seemed really significant. Now whenever I see it I think about how their choice of Blue and White to represent Hanuka is probably a little inappropriate.

Technically, all races, religions, and ethnicities are welcome and meant to be treated equal. But that doesn't mean that validation for all subsets of the country has been the same. I get that.

I am an agnostic, middle class, college-educated, non-southern east coast, straight white male of European descent. Each of those traits has been historically validated (big time) in this country, except one. I get that, too.

The only thing I'm objecting to in this whole discussion is the idea that I should be labeled "Christian."

 

[JMohegan]

Seriously. Every year.

And its like, yay, its great, they are recognizing Hanuka just like thay recognize Christmas. But on the other hand... Blue and white?

All of the Hanuka decorations sold in the stores are blue and white.

As an aside, holiday decorations = "aping the goyim," a friend of mine says!

 

[00Syd]

All of the Hanuka decorations sold in the stores are blue and white.

As an aside, holiday decorations = "aping the goyim," a friend of mine says!

And I think the fact that all the Hanuka decorations sold in stores are blue and white is problematic, too.

And yes, all the commercial celebration of Hanuka really is aping the goyim. But its cool, I dig it. I like a good celebration.

 

[JMohegan]

And I think the fact that all the Hanuka decorations sold in stores are blue and white is problematic, too.

And yes, all the commercial celebration of Hanuka really is aping the goyim. But its cool, I dig it. I like a good celebration.

Please forgive what is surely an ignorant question, but why are those colors problematic?

 

[hazel43]

Agnostic n. A thinker who disclaims any knowledge of God. - adj. Pertaining to the agnostics or their doctrines.

 

[JMohegan]

Agnostic n. A thinker who disclaims any knowledge of God. - adj. Pertaining to the agnostics or their doctrines.

That's basically it. A more complete definition appears below.

Do you have a question?



agnostic

n. a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

adj. of, relating to, or being an agnostic or the beliefs of agnostics