Any other atheists here?

[Ekserb]

I'm starting to become a little hesitant about trying to post in the midst of an Ekserb-Lorali debate -- it's like walking in on people while they're engaged in foreplay

We don't mind.

 

[figarojonez]

I believe there's something there, as too much is unexplained.

Evolutionary theory is a great idea, that has some evidence to it's validity, but nothing concrete. It's as valid an idea as creationism at this point. Dismissing the talk of dragons and mermaids, let's look at Neanderthal and homo Erectus, and all their ancestry. Looking at the bones of different primate species through history, they all look connected, and I'm not dismissing that they are, but we actually have no proof that they're related. The common argument is that we started to adapt and evolve to our surroundings, but the steps seem fairly sudden. The pro-evolutionist will argue that we have the gift of adapting quickly when necessary, whereas the the anti-evolutionist will say they were all different species created by God as time went on. Personally, I think that something is directing us and our evolution as a species, though we'll never know what it is, until it shows itself.

So I believe in God, or at least a God being, and I think the bible gets way too misinterpreted. I don't believe in Hell, because 80 years (25 when the first books were initially written) is far too short a time for a being that's so far beyond us to condemn us for eternity. That's always seemed like a human attitude to me. I guess if I'm wrong, I'll go to Hell, but if God's that shallow, I'd rather be absent from it anyway.

 

[sperling]

... the three principles of Nazi womanhood: Kinder, Kuche, Kirche

Sorry but Kinder, Küche, Kirche was NOT a Nazi-principle
People thought so before Hitler and they did (and a few still do) afterwards.
And as far as I know they thought so not only in Germany.

 

[Ekserb]

I believe there's something there, as too much is unexplained.

Evolutionary theory is a great idea, that has some evidence to it's validity, but nothing concrete. It's as valid an idea as creationism at this point. Dismissing the talk of dragons and mermaids, let's look at Neanderthal and homo Erectus, and all their ancestry. Looking at the bones of different primate species through history, they all look connected, and I'm not dismissing that they are, but we actually have no proof that they're related. The common argument is that we started to adapt and evolve to our surroundings, but the steps seem fairly sudden. The pro-evolutionist will argue that we have the gift of adapting quickly when necessary, whereas the the anti-evolutionist will say they were all different species created by God as time went on. Personally, I think that something is directing us and our evolution as a species, though we'll never know what it is, until it shows itself.

So I believe in God, or at least a God being, and I think the bible gets way too misinterpreted. I don't believe in Hell, because 80 years (25 when the first books were initially written) is far too short a time for a being that's so far beyond us to condemn us for eternity. That's always seemed like a human attitude to me. I guess if I'm wrong, I'll go to Hell, but if God's that shallow, I'd rather be absent from it anyway.

Do you also believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

 

[monique1971]

I believe there's something there, as too much is unexplained.

Evolutionary theory is a great idea, that has some evidence to it's validity, but nothing concrete. It's as valid an idea as creationism at this point. Dismissing the talk of dragons and mermaids, let's look at Neanderthal and homo Erectus, and all their ancestry. Looking at the bones of different primate species through history, they all look connected, and I'm not dismissing that they are, but we actually have no proof that they're related. The common argument is that we started to adapt and evolve to our surroundings, but the steps seem fairly sudden. The pro-evolutionist will argue that we have the gift of adapting quickly when necessary, whereas the the anti-evolutionist will say they were all different species created by God as time went on. Personally, I think that something is directing us and our evolution as a species, though we'll never know what it is, until it shows itself.

Believe what you like -- I'm not militant about these matters, unlike some I could mention -- but I think your post misunderstands the nature of scientific evidence. The fossil record IS evidence. You may refuse to be convinced, because other things matter to you more, such as faith in God, but that doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.

I think you also seem a little unclear on the temporal framework of evolution. One of the core concepts of evolution is that it does NOT happen "quickly when necessary." Evolution requires millennia. There are all kinds of dead ends, mass extinctions, gene mutations and other randomness along the way. Species don't adapt "suddenly."

 

[Lorali82]

Believe what you like -- I'm not militant about these matters, unlike some I could mention -- but I think your post misunderstands the nature of scientific evidence. The fossil record IS evidence. You may refuse to be convinced, because other things matter to you more, such as faith in God, but that doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.

I think you also seem a little unclear on the temporal framework of evolution. One of the core concepts of evolution is that it does NOT happen "quickly when necessary." Evolution requires millennia. There are all kinds of dead ends, mass extinctions, gene mutations and other randomness along the way. Species don't adapt "suddenly."

I have a cousin who believes that God put the fossils there to test our faith.

 

[DaddysAngel23]

Hahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahaha


That is the only response this thread deserves.

 

[sperling]

Hahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahaha


That is the only response this thread deserves.

hihi
You see: Angels are houmorous beings...

 

[figarojonez]

Do you also believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

reading over what I said, I was somewhat unclear. Let me clarify.

I believe in evolution, and that the path that has been traced by science is the way that we have come to be. I believe in the big bang, and all that. So I'm not saying it didn't happen.

My point was that the fossil record only proves that multiple primates existed at one time, and at multiple times throughout history. Theory on the nature of mankind has changed, and will continue to change. That is not to say that it is wrong, only developing and as with anything else, fallible. I also don't believe in chance, and while I understand adaptation and evolution have brought us from earlier primates, I have trouble believing that all species have evolved from the earliest single cell organism. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I have trouble believing in it.

The bible itself is a book written by men to explain their perception of the world and trying to make sense of it. There are some good lessons and framework for which to live your life, but it was pretty much centralized within Jesus' sermons.

 

[sperling]

I have a cousin who believes that God put the fossils there to test our faith.

Now that's a bit nutty,
reminds me of some things the bishops of rome used to say...
It's not easy with those fundamentalists, no matter in which religion.

 

[Ekserb]

reading over what I said, I was somewhat unclear. Let me clarify.

I believe in evolution, and that the path that has been traced by science is the way that we have come to be. I believe in the big bang, and all that. So I'm not saying it didn't happen.

My point was that the fossil record only proves that multiple primates existed at one time, and at multiple times throughout history. Theory on the nature of mankind has changed, and will continue to change. That is not to say that it is wrong, only developing and as with anything else, fallible. I also don't believe in chance, and while I understand adaptation and evolution have brought us from earlier primates, I have trouble believing that all species have evolved from the earliest single cell organism. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I have trouble believing in it.

The bible itself is a book written by men to explain their perception of the world and trying to make sense of it. There are some good lessons and framework for which to live your life, but it was pretty much centralized within Jesus' sermons.

So, you have trouble believing that over the course of billions of years and hundreds of millions of evolutionary mutations that man could have evolved to adapt to his surroundings, but you don't have a problem believing that some omnipotent being just whipped up everything in the entire universe on a whim? You say you believe in the Big Bang, but do you think it was set about by a thunderous finger snap?

You say you don't believe in chance, and in the very same sentence you admit to understanding adaptation and evolution. I submit that these two statements are at odds, since the very nature of evolution is that a chance mutation will allow a species to better adapt to its surroundings and thus propagate the colony while others without the mutation - while certainly able to survive on their own - will not be as greatly enabled as the mutant and will thus die off over the course of several generations, allowing the mutation to become the standard of the new species. In some cases the mutated specimen will simply move to an area where its new genetic code is better suited and a new colony will be formed so that the old colony and the new one will succeed individually, but with specific traits found only in their territory.

I think a lot of people can't grasp the idea of evolution simply because they can't fathom the enormous amount of time that has passed since life began on this planet. It is mind boggling to try to wrap your head around hundreds of thousands or millions of years of change when the average lifetime of a human is less than one-millionth of a blink of an eye when compared to the history of the planet. This is probably also why so many people don't want to believe that there is nothing after death. They are so wrapped up in their own miserable existence that the few years we have to live our lives seems too short and they want to believe that it does go on forever.

I love telling people that this is it. No forever and ever. No afterlife. No spending eternity in the loving sight of god. It's over. Your grandma isn't in heaven listening to your prayers at night. The babies who die during childbirth are just material for the landfill.

Except for dogs. They go to heaven.

 

[Ekserb]

I have a cousin who believes that God put the fossils there to test our faith.

It's amazing what some religious types believe.

I've seen interviews with people who think that everything in the bible actually happened. Seriously. They think that Noah built a huge boat into which he put two of every fucking species - current estimates range from 2 million to 100 million different species of animals - and saved the world during a flood that covered the entire surface of the planet including the mountaintops.

Yeah. Right.

 

[Ekserb]

The bible itself is a book written by men to explain their perception of the world and trying to make sense of it. There are some good lessons and framework for which to live your life, but it was pretty much centralized within Jesus' sermons.

Gotta revisit this.

As I understand it, the bible isn't a book written by men to explain their perception of the world, but that it was written by men who were divinely inspired to write the word of god. There is no earthly thinking involved in this inspiration, only the words of the most holy of holies flowing through the fingers of the chosen few.

Isn't the internet great?

 

[figarojonez]

Gotta revisit this.

As I understand it, the bible isn't a book written by men to explain their perception of the world, but that it was written by men who were divinely inspired to write the word of god. There is no earthly thinking involved in this inspiration, only the words of the most holy of holies flowing through the fingers of the chosen few.

Isn't the internet great?

That tends to be the popular view of anybody who doesn't take the time to actually learn the bible and understand whats metaphor (Eden, Noah), Historical text (numbers), philosophy lesson (Sermons on the mount), and Fable (Moses). To them, it all happened as printed, and someone divinely inspired could never write elegantly. Plus, God could never inspire a single other person to write, so Buddha was just a demon trying to fool us. As was everything else.

Personally, I think of any kind of God out there as an artist. I also think people expect too much, tending to make God out to be some personal errand boy that can answer every whim and robbing themselves of personal responsibility. If I succeed, it was me that did the work, and the only thanks God deserves is for creating reality (and therefore, me). If my wife dies in a plane crash, it's not that God abandoned me, it's shite luck.

God's not your mom to coddle you or protect you from the horrors of this world. People just want to believe that because they can't accept that they're the cause of all their woes.

 

[Ekserb]

That tends to be the popular view of anybody who doesn't take the time to actually learn the bible and understand whats metaphor (Eden, Noah), Historical text (numbers), philosophy lesson (Sermons on the mount), and Fable (Moses). To them, it all happened as printed, and someone divinely inspired could never write elegantly.

Dude, I didn't just pull my arguments out of my ass.

Who wrote the bible?

Noah's flood.

When you want the bullshit unfiltered, get it from the source.

 

[figarojonez]

Dude, I didn't just pull my arguments out of my ass.

Who wrote the bible?

Noah's flood.

When you want the bullshit unfiltered, get it from the source.

I never said you did. I said that the bible is widely misinterpreted, mostly by people who want excuses to be assholes, though not in those words.

 

[Ekserb]

I never said you did. I said that the bible is widely misinterpreted, mostly by people who want excuses to be assholes, though not in those words.

And who are you to say that it has been misinterpreted? In my opinion, it's people who don't like what they're told that will say that the text in question has been "misinterpreted."

The trouble with all religions is that the writings they are based on are all so vague that they can be and are construed to any meaning you like. This is why we have the Shiites and Sunnis fighting amongst each other in Iraq. They're all Muslims, but they each believe a slightly different interpretation of the koran.

Hell, if we want, we could interpret them all (bible, koran, veda, talmud, etc) as the fairy tales they are and finally we'd get beyond this ludicrous idea of a higher power.

 

[DaddysAngel23]

hihi
You see: Angels are houmorous beings...

the funniest thing of all is that for all the imagination and knowledge demonstrated here no one is willing to apply that to the faithful side of the argument and read between the lines a bit.
There is no Biblical basis to dispute evolution, time didn't matter until man began to write it down. The passage of time on an eternal level is completely different from what we can even imagine. Though man wrote 'A day' for each step in creation that has no real meaning to our day. There is nothing to say that God didn't take his dear sweet time with dinosaurs and evolution, didn't sit back and watch life create itself with His own little nudges to help it along, before moving on to the life of Man.

From the stand point of a former, firm atheist evolution doesn't make much sense without something to direct it down the paths it took.

 

[Hocky9377]

the funniest thing of all is that for all the imagination and knowledge demonstrated here no one is willing to apply that to the faithful side of the argument and read between the lines a bit.
There is no Biblical basis to dispute evolution, time didn't matter until man began to write it down. The passage of time on an eternal level is completely different from what we can even imagine. Though man wrote 'A day' for each step in creation that has no real meaning to our day. There is nothing to say that God didn't take his dear sweet time with dinosaurs and evolution, didn't sit back and watch life create itself with His own little nudges to help it along, before moving on to the life of Man.

From the stand point of a former, firm atheist evolution doesn't make much sense without something to direct it down the paths it took.

There is something in the Bible that does dispute Evolution. And they are the days of Creation. It says on the 6th day, God created Man in His own image. So, to me, thats defying Evolution. Though I do believe like you do, that the "day" in the Bible is not the same period of time that we call a "day". A "day" then could have take a couple of hundred of years, or a couple of months, or....just a day.

I have never understood Evolution. I went to public school for most of my education and I never got it. It didnt make sense to me from the time I first heard it. I personally feel that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[DaddysAngel23]

There is something in the Bible that does dispute Evolution. And they are the days of Creation. It says on the 6th day, God created Man in His own image. So, to me, thats defying Evolution.

That still doesn't dispute evolution. Evolution itself is flawed anyway it needs a guiding force to make sense. To say we went from ooze to all the vareties of life cannot in any way be proven.
Evolution actually makes sense in a way when you think of a Being creating new creaturs, changing old forms to make new ones before choosing to use His own form as a mold.
Science itself will prove the Truth in time. It is merely to us to join the two.

 

[Ekserb]

That still doesn't dispute evolution. Evolution itself is flawed anyway it needs a guiding force to make sense. To say we went from ooze to all the vareties of life cannot in any way be proven.
Evolution actually makes sense in a way when you think of a Being creating new creaturs, changing old forms to make new ones before choosing to use His own form as a mold.

Where do I start?

Evolution needs no "guiding force" to make sense. Unless you feel that guiding force is the possibility of genetic mutation from generation to generation. And if you feel that genetic mutation is, in fact, nudged along by a higher power, than you must also believe that your god is the one and only reason that some children are born with defects, or stillborn, or aborted spontaneously. (Oh, no. The zealots will always say that bad things are because people have free will. Good things are the divine will of god. Well, you can't have it both ways! Either this fucker is omnipotent or he ain't. (Omnipotent means "having unlimited power; able to do anything.") Which is it? He can create the entire everything, but he can't prevent a car from skidding off the icy road and killing a family of four? What a fucking gyp!)

I guess I have to explain evolution again. First of all, it took 800 million years for oceans to form from atmospheric water vapor. No life yet, just molecules of various elements floating around in the air and water. Over the course of the next 300 million to one billion years, the most basic forms of life developed. Simple single celled organisms that eventually developed photosynthetic properties and generated the earth's oxygen-rich atmosphere. It took over two billion years for these simple cells to gain another mutation - the nuclear membrane.

Now we're moving right along and in another billion years life gains the ability to form into multi-celled organisms. Fast-forward another billion years and we have hard-bodied life forms. The first fish develop after another hundred million years and fifty million years after that some algae are able to live out of water. Now we're on a roll.

Next we get sharks, amphibians, insects, reptiles, crocodiles and then, about 200 million years ago, we get the first mammals.

It takes another 150 million years for the first primates to develop and for sixteen million years they walked on all fours. Homo sapiens didn't appear until about 200 thousand years ago.

If you overlay these events with the geological timeline of the planet, you see that the early conditions weren't able to support a varied ecosystem, so genetic mutation was slow and unproductive. As the planet developed so did its ability to support more diverse forms of life and when genetic mutation did occur, life was better able to take advantage of those new traits and grow into new life forms. The more diverse the planet became, the more mutations were formed and the more life forms grew from it. It's a self-feeding system.

The trouble is, you don't seem to understand that these things are very, very slow. To you, a hundred years is more than a lifetime. To life in general, a million years is nothing.

Science itself will prove the Truth in time. It is merely to us to join the two.

How can you possibly think that?!? Science has disproved so many things that religion once taught that it isn't even funny. As I've previously noted, the former pope warned Prof. Stephen Hawking to not to study the origin of the universe. Why the fuck would he not want to know the truth about the beginnings of the universe? I'll tell you why: Because even he doesn't believe the shit he's shoveling.

 

[Lorali82]

Devil's advocate here:

Assuming the conditions of the prehistoric primordial soup can be more or less replicated in a lab, how come nobody's been able to create life yet?

This is assuming life on earth as we know it today actually did originate here and you reject other explanations (panspermia).

 

[Ekserb]

Devil's advocate here:

Assuming the conditions of the prehistoric primordial soup can be more or less replicated in a lab, how come nobody's been able to create life yet?

This is assuming life on earth as we know it today actually did originate here and you reject other explanations (panspermia).

Way too long and complicated to reprint here, but read this to find out how life probably began.

 

[HornyProf]

I never post so be fowarned..

hardly,ever, seriously.

But this is i an important issue. And the first thing I want to shout from the rooftops is EVOLUTION has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEISM!

Evolution is a naturalistic theory of how speicies come to be in their multifaceted form. It is a natual theory. It does nto explain why there is something instead of nothing, why *I*, this concrete individual, exists, and says nothing about how we ought to behave (unless you follow Herbert Spencer).

If there was such a person as Jesus, the point Jesus raised has nothing to do with natural science. It did have a lot to with how we treat other people.

The whole concept "natural science' is an onxymoron in biblical time anyway.

I am on ambien and wine. this is not coherent.

 

[Ekserb]

I am on ambien and wine. this is not coherent.

Never would have guessed.