Are slaves......

[Rantalith]

Ok from my own Dom experience.

I do not think that it is ok to hit your sub/slave out of anger. I have been upset with my sub/slave and I would go sit somewhere until I cooled off sothat we could talk about it.
I repeat it is never ok to hit your sub/slave out of anger.

People who use BDSM and D/s to abuse someone should really look at why they are in the lifestyle. They should probably get some help on their emotions also.

This is just my humble opinion.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Re: Re: Are slaves......

i agree very much with the above words...i think all too often in this lifestyle, people place their own ideals, beliefs and values over everyone else within the lifestyle...which leads to making generalizations or harsh judgements, simply because it's not part of their own personal experience/reality...it's not how they were taught things are supposed to be, it's not how they feel things are supposed to be...therefore, it's bad/wrong and shouldn't be part of the lifestyle period. for this reason, i personally have actually found more tolerance and even understanding, among vanillas as opposed to other lifestylers.

yes, some submissives have a desire to be inferior to their mates, or simply inferior, period...as for slaves, it's my own personal (and unpopular) opinion that by the very definition of the term, one who is property doesn't have rights, which would include the right not to be harmed or abused. but i felt i should clarify something, as in recent threads i've been among the very few to not condemn a person to heck and back for hitting their mate in anger. that does not mean i think it's "okay" to be hit in anger, or that i think abuse is "okay". i just am not of the opinion that a Dominant is the devil incarnate because he has an angry moment and hits his submissive in the process. but i digress. the fact is there are some who do indeed have a need to be abused (and those who have a need to abuse), and it is not my place to say what is right and wrong for every M/s relationship.

I think i can understand part of what you say (which is good and the reason i started the thread). I have been taught and re taught and taught again that abuse is bad bad bad for me,i used to seek it, put myself in harms way on purpose so to speak to get it, and i was taught i can have it an a safe way w/out being damaged both emotionally and physically. So yes in a sense it has been drummed into my head to not put myself in those places anymore, and i speak only from what i know, it truly helped me find where i need to be. Maybe i feel that if i touch another with what i know they will see the same thing, not trying to force who i am or what i believe on anyone but i know the begining of this road is hard and bumpy and confusing and sometimes showing what you know and have experienced to someone on that road make it less confusing for them.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Ok from my own Dom experience.

I do not think that it is ok to hit your sub/slave out of anger. I have been upset with my sub/slave and I would go sit somewhere until I cooled off sothat we could talk about it.
I repeat it is never ok to hit your sub/slave out of anger.

People who use BDSM and D/s to abuse someone should really look at why they are in the lifestyle. They should probably get some help on their emotions also.

This is just my humble opinion.

And your humble opinion was greatly appreciated

 

[TigerClaw]

No it is not ok to hit any one out of anger.

No, D/s is not about abuse. What may be considered abuse in the outside world is not abuse in a S&M relationship.

If you are made to feel inferior it is abuse in an S&M beyond the humiliation thing.

 

[Kajira Callista]

No it is not ok to hit any one out of anger.

No, D/s is not about abuse. What may be considered abuse in the outside world is not abuse in a S&M relationship.

If you are made to feel inferior it is abuse in an S&M beyond the humiliation thing.

Short sweet and too the point, thank you tigerclaw

 

[Quint]

No, D/s is not about abuse. What may be considered abuse in the outside world is not abuse in a S&M relationship.

I've said this before but it bears repeating. I get a little leery when people start defining BDSM as "that which is not abuse." It's circular reasoning. For example, "And by the way, 'surplus' means a little bit of money left over, otherwise it wouldn't be called a surplus."* Can BDSM activities be abusive, or are they incapable of being abusive because they are BDSM activities, as this quoted statement above implies? The common consensus is the former--even proponents of genuine slavery such as osg do not deny the existence of abuse in M/s relationships. She merely does not offer judgment over whether this abuse is "good" or "bad" in the relationship. (Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that.)

I don't like T to hit me out of anger but I feel no need to leave him because it has happened twice. If he enjoyed it, we would probably prove incompatible as a couple, but it would not make him any less of a "dominant," or even necessarily less of a "good dominant" in my eyes. I don't take people to be that black or white and I make a great deal of allowances for learners.

Inferiority...I think s'lara said it marvelously. If I wanted equality, I wouldn't be here. But I'm not a worthless slime, either...I don't choose to be, nor does my partner wish it of me. That's as far as my normatives go.

*Bush

 

[ChasingShadowsX]

I think a slave should be... A roll playing thing which is on and off whenever the couple agree to it. Anything that happens when its on is purely up to the couple based on what they like and dont like...

But I would like to think these people lead normal lives when they aint thinking with their lower parts of their bodies.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Answers will always vary on what a slave is or is not and what is expected of a slave. In My eye a Dominant is not an abuser "ever" but some people hide behind the Dom/me title simply to prey on the vulnerable.

A slaves life is not an easy life but it can be a fullfilling life for those who truly have a slave mentality.

It takes a great deal of determination to be a valuable slave and a great deal of energy to be the Dominant of a slave.

 

[Netzach]

I think SM is about paradox and dichotomy.

Worthless shoe-sucking scumbucket? Valuable and exceptional human being? Why can't someone actually be both things at the same time?

This, to me, is the *magic* of an SM relationship.

What other people dismiss as "roleplaying" I personally choose to view at times as "realization" or "dimension"

No, I don't think hitting your slave in anger is OK if it's your only style. No it's certainly not OK if the slave is in a state of uninformed, if they don't fully understand and accept that the relationship may take this direction.

However, within a certain dimension of SM, where the slave is accepting, or even *seeking* this, I don't consider the act abusive.

I hit people in fits of malice, caprice, annoyance, and for the hell of it. When it's the right thing to do.

With some people it's NEVER the right thing to do. Dominant vs. Abuser? When you can tell and respect the difference.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I think it is all about attitude and intent...and BTW, I'm supposed to be the judgmental one here, you know.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think it is all about attitude and intent...and BTW, I'm supposed to be the judgmental one here, you know.

LOL....you must be slipping!!!

Catalina

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

LOL....you must be slipping!!!

Catalina

Yeah, that's me...


Seriously, there is a certain amount of...respect that has to exist, and a level of control that a Master should have over himself.

I guess you could compare being a Master to raising an animal. You control every aspect of its life, and it may be painful at times, using the animal(like riding a horse really hard may be painful for it) In training you may cause the animal alot of pain while teaching it discipline...but at the same time, you don't cut off an animal's leg out of boredom or malice.

I think in the same way, in training a slave, you will use the slave for your pleasure, even if it hurts the slave, do whatever you want...but generally Masters don't cross the line into actual abuse.


At least we hope not?

 

[Mr Blonde]

I think three things tend to suggest something is wrong from the dominant's perspective.

1. acting out of pure malice or hatred
2. major loss of respect for the sub/slave
3. major loss of self-control

If you have those issues then you are just a maniac disguised as a dominant.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I think a slave should be... A roll playing thing which is on and off whenever the couple agree to it. Anything that happens when its on is purely up to the couple based on what they like and dont like...

But I would like to think these people lead normal lives when they aint thinking with their lower parts of their bodies.

Thank you for joining the discussion chasing shadows. Alot of ool do like their lifes that way and are very content, i dont think its enough for everyone though. Your view is apperciated...another side to all this that hadnt been spoken.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Answers will always vary on what a slave is or is not and what is expected of a slave. In My eye a Dominant is not an abuser "ever" but some people hide behind the Dom/me title simply to prey on the vulnerable.

A slaves life is not an easy life but it can be a fullfilling life for those who truly have a slave mentality.

It takes a great deal of determination to be a valuable slave and a great deal of energy to be the Dominant of a slave.

You always do put things into words so beautifully Shadowsdream Ma'am. Do you feel a slave is inferior or powerless...i would love to know your thoughts on this. Miss your posts.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Yeah, that's me...


Seriously, there is a certain amount of...respect that has to exist, and a level of control that a Master should have over himself.

I guess you could compare being a Master to raising an animal. You control every aspect of its life, and it may be painful at times, using the animal(like riding a horse really hard may be painful for it) In training you may cause the animal alot of pain while teaching it discipline...but at the same time, you don't cut off an animal's leg out of boredom or malice.

I think in the same way, in training a slave, you will use the slave for your pleasure, even if it hurts the slave, do whatever you want...but generally Masters don't cross the line into actual abuse.


At least we hope not?

Ok, what if someone doesnt fully understand the responsibilites of a Master, if they are just as new as the slave? How do they know where the line they shouldnt cross is?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Re: Are slaves......

I think three things tend to suggest something is wrong from the dominant's perspective.

1. acting out of pure malice or hatred
2. major loss of respect for the sub/slave
3. major loss of self-control

If you have those issues then you are just a maniac disguised as a dominant.

Thank you Mr Blonde for your post. Just a question....do slaves need to be respected? they are slaves, owned property. Im not saying i dont think they need respect...because in actuality i think the respect they should be given and truly deserved is earned the second they hand the control over to their Master. No one is inferior or powerless, a slave hands that over as she kneels at His/Her feet (symbolicly typed there). The Master then holds this gift safely for the slave, it isnt tossed away or overlooked or forgotten...it is cherished by the person she/he trusted giving it to. And know im gonna get reamed for this as i have been in the past but oh well. She can have that gift returned to her anytime she wants...its hers and any true Master would know she wouldnt ask for it back unless he failed her in some way,to deny the return is to me abusive. I'll add that once in that postion, we dont want to go...we love being where we are and the thought of leaving is out of the question. But there are acceptions to everything, there are times when a slave knows its time to get out or get hurt in all the wrong ways, it happens and i think it actuall takes a very strong person to admit they need out and to go. So as you can see, powerless doesnt wash with me.I think im gonna have to say this in every post because when i type i type my beliefs like they are sorta rules to live by...they are to me but...they are my opinions and views on the subject only and i am opened to anyone elses opinion and views.

 

[Limbhugger]

Welp, here goes...

I probably shouldn't even be posting on this thread as most would find me vanilla with little chocolate sauce. However, I do believe EVERYONE has and abides by some level of D/s in their lives.

This is also a subject I am very interested in so am doing a lot of reading/research.

So from my humble, WTF do I know point of view...

The title Dom/me or Master/Mistress to be conjures an image of a very unique person. To me, talking someone into letting you tie them up and spank their ass while you talk dirty to them isn't really BDSM. Nor do I think that qualifies the person as Dominant.

I guess I see a Dominant as the teacher, guider, controller, liberator, and the bearer of tremendous responsibility. I mean the Dominant is taking on the responsibility for both themselves and the submissive. I guess I have a hard time seperating the physical from the emotional.

In my mind I see this entire aspect of life as a physical, mental, and emotional journey. A path to enlightenment and self-discovery and freedom and in a bizarre way, peace.

Should not the Dominant be a Master of themselves first? Able to control their own emotion to point of being responsible for another's.

To me the key to this was "anger." I cast no stones on what two knowing, willing participants engage in. But like has been so much better than I am putting it, I guess it all comes down to the motivation.

Okay, I'll step out now and thanks for your patience.

Hugger

 

[Kajira Callista]

Welp, here goes...

I probably shouldn't even be posting on this thread as most would find me vanilla with little chocolate sauce. However, I do believe EVERYONE has and abides by some level of D/s in their lives.

This is also a subject I am very interested in so am doing a lot of reading/research.

So from my humble, WTF do I know point of view...

The title Dom/me or Master/Mistress to be conjures an image of a very unique person. To me, talking someone into letting you tie them up and spank their ass while you talk dirty to them isn't really BDSM. Nor do I think that qualifies the person as Dominant.

I guess I see a Dominant as the teacher, guider, controller, liberator, and the bearer of tremendous responsibility. I mean the Dominant is taking on the responsibility for both themselves and the submissive. I guess I have a hard time seperating the physical from the emotional.

In my mind I see this entire aspect of life as a physical, mental, and emotional journey. A path to enlightenment and self-discovery and freedom and in a bizarre way, peace.

Should not the Dominant be a Master of themselves first? Able to control their own emotion to point of being responsible for another's.

To me the key to this was "anger." I cast no stones on what two knowing, willing participants engage in. But like has been so much better than I am putting it, I guess it all comes down to the motivation.

Okay, I'll step out now and thanks for your patience.

Hugger

Im thinking you have a whole lot better understanding of all this then you let on thanks for the post

 

[Netzach]

Maybe a slave needs slavery to be humbled.

Maybe a slave needs slavery to be in touch with how *not in control* he is.

Maybe a slave needs to feel punished cosmically, irrationally.

Maybe they *are* an emotional masochist. And nobody but nobody will free them from thinking that makes them "sick"...except for one person.

One model of Mastery is the completely controlled, predictable, nurturing parent model.

It's not the only one. Nor the only one everyone has all the time. Nor the one everyone implements no matter who his or her slave is.

I've had submissives for whom the kid gloves were always on. I've had others who begged to be kicked.

To me, Mastery is guiding that person where they need to go with you, and not judging, while not going beyond your own limitations. It's being in front on that journey the two of you are taking, no less and not much more.

If anything, it's the Dominant's limits that matter most, and we aren't encouraged to think about them nearly as much as the submissive. Where don't your ethics allow you to go? Know that, and a lot will follow.

 

[navarre]

It is hard for me to add much after what Francisco and Fungi have said.

Not only is giving pain an art form, but control is also an art form…. a Dominant’s control of themselves…. control of their emotions…control of their submissive/slave.
While everyone is different and each D/s relationship takes on its own flavor, the flavor of hitting out of anger does not wash, in D/s relationships or any other kind of relationship.
If a Dominant does not have the control of himself to NOT hit out of anger, how can he truly call Himself/Herself a Dominant?

 

[TheRiddler]

As someone that is fascinated with this lifestyle but not in it, I find this thread very refreshing and enlightening. Thank you KJ for starting it. I see now that your beauty on the outside truly comes from the beauty within you.

And thank you to everyone else that has posted here as well.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Maybe a slave needs slavery to be humbled.

Maybe a slave needs slavery to be in touch with how *not in control* he is.

Maybe a slave needs to feel punished cosmically, irrationally.

Maybe they *are* an emotional masochist. And nobody but nobody will free them from thinking that makes them "sick"...except for one person.

One model of Mastery is the completely controlled, predictable, nurturing parent model.

It's not the only one. Nor the only one everyone has all the time. Nor the one everyone implements no matter who his or her slave is.

I've had submissives for whom the kid gloves were always on. I've had others who begged to be kicked.

To me, Mastery is guiding that person where they need to go with you, and not judging, while not going beyond your own limitations. It's being in front on that journey the two of you are taking, no less and not much more.

If anything, it's the Dominant's limits that matter most, and we aren't encouraged to think about them nearly as much as the submissive. Where don't your ethics allow you to go? Know that, and a lot will follow.

Thank you Netzach, i read, thought and reread your post...It is all about the Dominants limits...at least to me. I would like to ask one thing though, in your eyes are slaves inferior ppl or powerless. Im not talking about during play or at certain times when its the dominants choice to have them in that position, im talking about in a general sort of way.

 

[Kajira Callista]

It is hard for me to add much after what Francisco and Fungi have said.

Not only is giving pain an art form, but control is also an art form…. a Dominant’s control of themselves…. control of their emotions…control of their submissive/slave.
While everyone is different and each D/s relationship takes on its own flavor, the flavor of hitting out of anger does not wash, in D/s relationships or any other kind of relationship.
If a Dominant does not have the control of himself to NOT hit out of anger, how can he truly call Himself/Herself a Dominant?

Hello Navarre Sir and thanks for posting. I agree with all you have said, but i would like to know one thing. How is a slave viewed by you...as their Master or in general?

 

[Kajira Callista]

As someone that is fascinated with this lifestyle but not in it, I find this thread very refreshing and enlightening. Thank you KJ for starting it. I see now that your beauty on the outside truly comes from the beauty within you.

And thank you to everyone else that has posted here as well.

Well hello there riddler, thanks for your kind words. I have to say you are one of the sweetest ppl ive met on lit .*hug*