Are You Grammatically Incorrect?

[Mhari]

"...but Carol and myself knew..."

However, your example perhaps approaches respectability because the phrase "Carol and me" would sound awkward, repeated. Hence 'myself' is a kind of variation for style.

*puts on her Grammar Nazi hat*

Actually, it should be "Carol and I". No repetition a-tall.

*runs away*

Seriously, I try not to mentally edit people's posts or mentally detract points from their IQs when I see errors. I am totally mortified when I see a grammar/spelling/punctuation error that I missed in one of my own posts, though...

 

[SlickTony]

I was surprised that they didn't get into hang...The picture that hung on the wall showed a hanged man.

Of course if it showed a picture of a man who's well-endowed, it would be a well-hung man

10/10 for me, and don't get me started on Microsoft Grammar check. It's wrong a great deal of the time. It's always accusing me of sentence fragments when I know damn good and well the sentences are complete.

 

[Pure]

Mhari said (usual sagacity)

//Actually, it should be "Carol and I". No repetition a-tall. //

Yes, you're right of course. But I maintain the style would be barbaric: [in two consecutive sentences, the occurrences] Carol and I; Carol and me; Carol and I [the one you corrected]. If you look at what the author, in an unplanned way was doing, he was, according to his 'ear,' ** introducing variety: Carol and I; Carol and me; Carol and myself'. A stylistic gain.

Yet 'myself,' in subject position [as in the example] is an error, aside from the issue of intensive use. I believe we agree on that.

J.

**I think that's the gist of his latest and gracious posting.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think the ...self form of a pronoun is used when the subject of a sentence is the same person as the object of the verb or the object of a preposition that is part of an adverbial phrase. Such as: I chose myself. We turned ourselves in. He exposed himself. She quickly undressed herself. He played with himself. They played with themselves. I wanked by myself. I could use other examples but this IS Literotica. Otherwise the ...self form is used to emohasize the subject, such as : The CEO, himselt told me.... or I, Myself, have always thought..... or you, yourself, used to do..... There may be other uses, such as referring to God or royalty or other highly respected entities, or doing so sarcastically about unrespected entities.

The elementary school I attended, many years ago was a real stickler for grammar and I have always thought it worthwhile maintaining it.

 

[MathGirl]

I did okay on the test, but I just guessed at one question. I never missed a day of school in my life, but I don't ever remember being told how to use "were" and "was." I either guess or find another way to say it.

Can anyone explain the proper usage of "were" and "was?"

Querereroussley,
MG

 

[Mhari]

Can anyone explain the proper usage of "were" and "was?"

*grabs her Grammar Nazi hat again*

I assume you're asking about the use of mood, not tense. I shall proceed accordingly.

"Were" is used in the subjunctive mood. Ones uses it for wishes and in "if" clauses that express conditions that are contrary to fact:

"If I were she, I'd..."
"He wishes he were the coolest kid in school."
"He acts as if he were the coolest kid in school." *grin*

There are other bits to the subjunctive mood, but I'll end my lecture here, and keep it just to the usage of "to be".



edited for spelling... *mutters*

 

[Guest]

Mhari, cool AV. Cool grammarian too.

Perdita

 

[Gary Chambers]

At the risk of sounding fascist . 'Myself' is usually (mis)used--especially in the subject position...However, your example perhaps approaches respectability because the phrase "Carol and me" would sound awkward, repeated. Hence 'myself' is a kind of variation for style.

OTOH, since "Carol and me" has been used, the simple 'we' will avoid the repetition**.

OK, then there's lot of 'we's' so how about this, with some other pruning:

"...but we knew we could // rise above their insults, so it didn't matter much to us."

I fail to see the purpose of 'each' deleted at the point marked //.

clearly of dangerous leanings to the grammatical right wing,

J.

**I note boxlicker has stated the same preference.

The Original Example:
Carol and I were good friends at school. For team sports they would pick anyone but Carol and me, but Carol and myself knew we could each rise above their insults if we tried, so it didn't matter to us very much.

Pure,
This was an interesting observation, or at least I find it so. When I wrote the exemplary sentences, I looked them over before posting to make sure I hadn’t done anything I couldn’t justify. The improper use of the word ‘myself’ glared at me from the screen, but I decided to keep it because it didn’t sound all that bad, and helped make my point that the need for good style can override the need for good grammar, as you correctly noted.

Looking at the sentence more closely, I felt it still needed some adjustment to make it defensible. ‘Carol and I’, ‘Carol and me’ and the plural pronouns ‘us’ and ‘we’ all make the reader think of Carol and the first person narrator as a pair who can be addressed as one, whereas ‘myself’ is singular to the point of being argumentative. So the word ‘each’ was added, to drive home the idea that Carol and the narrator could not only rise above insults as a team but also as individuals. It helped switch the reader from thinking of a plurality to thinking of singular entities, thereby adding further subtle support for the incorrect usage of ‘myself’.

To me that kind of crafting is much more interesting than grammar. One can learn the rules of grammar by rote, but only a feel for the language can help you make use of these subtleties in your composition. We all do it without thinking. It’s part of who and what we are, and it usually wouldn’t result in anything as grammatically incorrect as the example I gave. Your observation of the redundancy of ‘each’ in the sentence, IMHO raises our examination of language in this thread above a pedantic level of grammatical authoritarianism to something far more important: readability.

As for my being gracious, I thank you kindly for bothering to make that notation, but since I work tirelessly at affecting the manner of a cynical curmudgeon, I must ask that we don’t spread news of this chink in my armour much farther.

 

[Mhari]

Mhari, cool AV. Cool grammarian too.

Thanks, Perdita!! I'm rather a fan of your AVs, too!

 

[raphy]

Mhari, cool AV. Cool grammarian too.

Perdita

She teaches that shit for a livin' .. Lives and breathes it - I'm pretty confident that I know my stuff, but I *never* go up against Mhari in a grammatical fight.

And I second the AV vote!

 

[Mhari]

She teaches that shit for a livin' .. Lives and breathes it - I'm pretty confident that I know my stuff, but I *never* go up against Mhari in a grammatical fight.

And I second the AV vote!

*blushes*

Actually, I get to go back to teaching *history* next semester! *dances happily* Now if the kids don't know their grammar, it isn't my problem! Woohoo!!

 

[Guest]

As for my being gracious, I thank you kindly for bothering to make that notation, but since I work tirelessly at affecting the manner of a cynical curmudgeon, I must ask that we don’t spread news of this chink in my armour much farther.

Too late, we've all read it now.

I'm with you on the issue of readability, after all, that's what it comes down to. I never think about the intricacies of technical grammatical details when I write, I just write what reads or 'sounds' right.

I don't know what all the correct terms are and when certain things should be used above others, I just have a good ear, I guess. Interestingly enough, the only question I got wrong in that test was my use of 'myself' instead of 'me' in question 3 (I think). I used 'myself' because I thought it sounded ok, much as you did in your example, GaryBob. I've read your thoughts and reasoning with interest, you 'speak' a lot of sense.

Mhari, cool AV! Thanks for the explanation of 'was' vs 'were'. I didn't know the reasoning behind using one over the other. I did use 'were' as the answer in that test, because it sounded right. Fluke, I guess.

Lou

 

[SlickTony]

Were is what's grammatically correct, but if you want to sound like folks, you're likely to use "was."

 

[Pure]

That's right, Slick,

you said,
'Were' is what's grammatically correct, but if you want to sound like folks, you're likely to use "was."
-----

From _Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage_ [1985]:

[Note 'were,' in the example, is subjunctive; 'was' is indicative]

The only time you are likely to run into it [subjunctive, e.g., 'were'] --save in the most formal writing, such as state papers--is in instances where there is very serious doubt of the fulfillment of the "if" clause, or when the condition is contrary to fact, as in the famous song... 'If I were a rich man.' Nowadays you will almost invariably hear and read the indicative rather than the subjunctive." p. 569

The example may fit the exceptions cited. Some posters, not without reason, have argued the contrary.

However, putting myself in the mind of the test makers and their likely views, I chose 'were,' the stuffier alternative.

J.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Actually, I saw that quiz before and I answered #7 the same way with the same reasoning. I gave what I knew was considered to be the wrong answer here just for the sake of arguing. Experienced test takers, even if they don't know the correct answer, would look at it and reason that the first two answere were essentially the same, except in a different tense, and would pick the third answer.

As for "Carol and myself", Like Billy Bob said about it: "The improper use of the word ‘myself’ glared at me from the screen, but I decided to keep it because it didn’t sound all that bad". It did sound all that bad to me.

To pick another nit: When I used to participate in unorganized sports, usually there would be a bunch of people and two of them were team captains, and the captains would select one player at a time. The last persons selected were perceived as being the most inept players. If Carol and the narrator were the two poorest players, they would have been on opposing teams. I never heard of a game where the participants were chosen two at a time although if two of them had been conjoined twins, they would have been chosen as a single selection. That never happened when I was a participant. I mention all this because the second reference to Carol is "Carol and me". Since Carol and the narrator would have been selected separately, it probably should have been "Carol or me". I'm not really a grammar nazi but sometimes, especially in the morning, I am a curmudgeon.

 

[MathGirl]

"Were" is used in the subjunctive mood. Ones uses it for wishes and in "if" clauses that express conditions that are contrary to fact:

Dear MH,
Thanks for that. I've never had it explained before. I must have been thinking about non-Euclidian geometry when Sister Roberta were teaching that.
MG

 

[gauchecritic]

[BTo pick another nit: When I used to participate in unorganized sports, usually there would be a bunch of people and two of them were team captains, and the captains would select one player at a time. The last persons selected were perceived as being the most inept players. If Carol and the narrator were the two poorest players, they would have been on opposing teams. I never heard of a game where the participants were chosen two at a time although if two of them had been conjoined twins, they would have been chosen as a single selection. That never happened when I was a participant. I mention all this because the second reference to Carol is "Carol and me". Since Carol and the narrator would have been selected separately, it probably should have been "Carol or me". I'm not really a grammar nazi but sometimes, especially in the morning, I am a curmudgeon. [/B]

Or more likely: Whoever had last pick to leave Carol and the narrator probably pre-empted having the poorest of the two left and finished his pick with "You can have those two."

Gauche

 

[whispering_surrender]

Or more likely: Whoever had last pick to leave Carol and the narrator probably pre-empted having the poorest of the two left and finished his pick with "You can have those two."

Gauche

*snicker* I've done that before!

Whisper

 

[Boxlicker101]

Originally posted by gauchecritic
Or more likely: Whoever had last pick to leave Carol and the narrator probably pre-empted having the poorest of the two left and finished his pick with "You can have those two."

Gauche
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, if Carol and the narrator were so inept as to be a liaility, the other captain would not have let his rival get away with that.

Since this is a grammar thread, Gauche, you should have said "having the poorer of the two", since that is the comparative adjective.

"adjusts monocle and leaves"

 

[gauchecritic]

Since this is a grammar thread, Gauche, you should have said "having the poorer of the two", since that is the comparative adjective.

"adjusts monocle and leaves"

Apart from the fact that I was using the absolute rather than comparative, acknowledging, by inference, that the last picked would be poorest of them all.

Indicating that he still retains his string fingers.

Gauche

 

[Boxlicker101]

Originally posted by gauchecritic

Or more likely: Whoever had last pick to leave Carol and the narrator probably pre-empted having the poorest of the two left and finished his pick with "You can have those two."

I realize you are implying that either Carol or N was the most inept of the whole group, but since you have included the phrase "of the two left", you are only comparing those two. If you had omitted the phrase or said "of the group", the superlative would have been correct.


(Wipes off and replaces monocle and goose steps away)

 

[gauchecritic]

If there were but two to choose from then I would concede that poorer would be more appropriate. However, the very phrase that you point out to support your claim: 'of the two left' implies a previous group and therefor when there is but one left of that group then he or she would be poorest.

Stalks off muttering "my arse."

Gauche

 

[Gary Chambers]

If there were but two to choose from then I would concede that poorer would be more appropriate. However, the very phrase that you point out to support your claim: 'of the two left' implies a previous group and therefor when there is but one left of that group then he or she would be poorest.

Stalks off muttering "my arse."

Gauche

Christ, I wish the characters in my stories got as much attention as these two playground washouts. I've created a pair of Frankenstinas.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Poorer

Originally posted by gauchecritic

If there were but two to choose from then I would concede that poorer would be more appropriate. However, the very phrase that you point out to support your claim: 'of the two left' implies a previous group and therefor when there is but one left of that group then he or she would be poorest.

Stalks off muttering "my arse."

Although a larger group had been involved originally, at the time the hypothetical team captain made the decision, only two remained and the comparison was made between (not among) the two. He or she would have been trying to avoid being stuck with the more inept of the two, to rephrase.

Earlier, I compared bad grammar to a speed bump on the highway. I would not consider a superlative adjective instead of a comparative one to be such a speed bump, and I would probably say "poorest" also, even knowing it was not grammatical, because "poorer" does not flow. Although I usually try to be correct, I consider easy reading to be more important than grammatical nit picking.

 

[LadyJane]

I was 10/10 but I also used to teach English composition and grammar at a community college. I saw all of those errors while grading papers, but I think the most misunderstood one of all is "lie, lay, have lain" (not that laid you perverts!). Microsoft Word grammar/spellcheck always marks sentences like "She lay back down on the bed" as incorrect - morons! I click the Ignore button with disdain. The one that always gets me is "dreamed or dreamt." Which is it? Is dreamt a word?